What's justice anyway? Fuck Ontario Family Courts

Well, I don’t think I’ve got enough info (and frankly, I’m not feeling like prying for detailsto score a gotcha) to really make any sort of endictments, I will say that if the wife lied to the court, I hope she gets hers in the end.

As for why anyone should care about what’s what in **trublmakr’s ** book, I imagine they should when his views coincide with the court’s. And as long as adultary is taken into consideration during divorce proceedings, well, yes, it does make a difference whether she or her current SO were married (even just on paper) when she began her relationship. Declaring the relationship is ‘dead’ but not dissolving the marriage is just asking for trouble. Who’s to say whether one member of the union really desires reconciliation? How is the court to decide?

Already covered in the OP’s last post:

They were legally seperated, living in the same house, as recognized by Canadian law.

I’m really sorry to hear that, Heckity. We’ve all heard horror stories about people getting screwed by the legal system when it comes to divorce settlements and child custody; small consolation, I guess, that you’re not alone. Bad things do happen to good people, unfortunately, but you and your husband will get through this and move on and be happy again. It doesn’t sound like his ex is a very happy person, and no settlement will fix that for her.

You ask for advice - my advice is to cut your losses, pay what you have to, and drop this whole mess and move on. If the judge didn’t see the value in your argument when you had a email and court transcripts to produce to prove it, I don’t see any different outcome in the future.

Thank you everyone for your support. As featherlou suggests we are cutting our losses and moving on. Our lawyer informed us that it would cost at least $15,000 for the appeal (+ $10,000 if we lose) and only a 50/50 chance of a different outcome (I believe that’s optimistic).

Anyhow, I’m feeling much better today as I emailed the following letter to the ex-wife:

December 15, 2005
Dear xxxxxxx:

Congratulations on your stunning victory yesterday. I mean that sincerely. Just as opponents shake hands over a tennis net – it’s simply good form to recognize the victory.

Now that the combat is over, I’d like to say a few things to you that I think might be helpful to you.

First of all, I am sincerely sorry for your personal losses over the past year or so. No one should have to suffer so much in such a short period of time. Hopefully this victory will mitigate those losses to some degree.

I am trying to keep this note to you free of rancor, but of course, given what we’ve been through it is difficult. I’ll just make a few points and move on with my life.

  1. Xxxxx and I never had an affair. Perhaps you really already knew this, but repeating your key message has led you to believe your own stories. We didn’t in fact become physically intimate until we’d both left our relationships. That may not be helpful in coming to grips with the end of the marriage, but honestly, your marriage ending wasn’t my fault and I believe you do know that.
  2. I had heard you were a nice woman from those who’d met you previously. That isn’t true anymore, is it? I mean if you’ve ever cared for someone and you can attack them with such vigor, it’s hard to believe that you’re anything but immoral, dishonest, mercurial, vindictive and the consummate mercenary.
  3. So what does make you feel that you are morally superior to other people? After all, you did the following, and it is by no means a comprehensive list:
    a. Divulged information that was shared in confidence for monetary gain;
    b. Sent anonymous emails of a threatening nature to Xxxxx’s place of employment even before he left your home;
    c. Used the death and ailments of your siblings for monetary gain;
    d. Lied to the courts and your children for monetary gain and to punish their father;
    e. Passed a cheque not written to you;
    f. Handicapped your son to the point that he may not recover from the inability to reconcile what he knows to be true of his father and the lies you’ve told him;
    g. Completely prostituted yourself with Xxxxx’s family (who you abhor, remember?) for material gain;
    h. Had a secret bank account while unemployed;
    i. Stole all the money from the investment account;
    j. Lied about the magnitude of support you received;

and worst of all

k. You turned your children against a man who loves them, even though you promised to do the right thing. I hope for their sake you live a very long time so they are not left in a void with no one and a legacy of bitter unforgiving hearts.
So let’s agree that you’re a small-minded, bitter, vindictive and dishonest woman, shall we? And I will cling to my wonderful life with a man I adore, who gave you more than you deserved; and you can cling to what you mistake for happiness.

Some day this WILL catch up to you. I won’t be there – I don’t need revenge.

Best wishes for a long and happy life. May our paths never cross.


Heckity, may I commend you on answering **troublmakr’s ** angry posts very calmly and clearly. I have no advice for you other than:

  1. It was good to get out of your marriages if you were truly miserable. I hate hearing “Oh, I could never divorce” when people are genuinely unhappy.
  2. What she did, from what little i understand, was pretty shitty.
  3. I don’t know if there’s anything you can do about it, but in the end, you’re rid of her…it may be at a higher cost than you expected, but in the end, you’re happy and she’s not.

Now who’s back-pedaling? Where do you get off going on a tirade based on your misunderstanding of one sentence in the OP, and then claim you’re not trying to jump in someone else’s shit. You stink of it.

If “it raised some very interesting questions for you,” then why the hell didn’t you ask the questions instead of immediately assuming “double infidelity! I’m going to give them a piece of my mind!” And when Heckity explained the situation, how come you didn’t ask yourself those very interesting questions, instead of immediately accusing Heckity of “back-pedaling” and being a coward who doesn’t deserve your sympathy?

I’ve got a very interesting question for you: how come you’re such a goddamn bitch?

Wow, someone on an anonymous message board thinks I’m a goddamn bitch. That really hurts. Oh wait, my friends and family don’t think I’m a goddamn bitch, so I guess it doesn’t hurt all that much. Fuck you, Sol.

I, just like anyone and everyone else, have a right to express my opinions. If you don’t like them, put me on ignore.

That is, no doubt, because they share your sterling qualities.

True enough, but it would be nice if, in the future, you based your opinions on something more substantial than whatever nuggets you can dig out of your ass.

Actually, I suspect they do but they’re just too polite to point it out. Which may explain why you’ve heard “we’re still living together but the [relationship] is over” WAY too many times in your life.

Yes, you have a right to express your opinions. But you have an obligation not to be a self-righteous, sanctimonious twat. That obligation trumps any weak-ass BS about your free speech being impugned.

Next time, try to comprehend what the OP is saying before jumping to your own conclusions, piling on more of your bullshit each time they’re patient with you and try to explain it, and then going on about your right to your opinions instead of being a goddamn grown-up and apologizing. I can only imagine the reason Heckity’s been so patient in responding to you is because she’s had a year of practice having to deal with an obnoxious bitch. If you’d just grow up and stop being one, we wouldn’t have to put you on our ignore lists.

Did sending the email help you feel better at all, Heckity?

It would’ve been cool to send it in a sealed box, only to be opened after she paid $10,000. You know she would’ve been greedy enough to do so.


You are not the only one. Living separately in the house while still married is still married. I’m guessing the insult “slut!” is a reflection of the ex’s perspective on their courses of conduct, and how it all played out.

I highly doubt my ex wife could turn my kids against me—our relationship is close and no stunts on her part could impact that. Why are they upset with him? And what possessed him to "paid support far in excess of what may have been ordered, mainly out of guilt,…’

I smell a rat here.

I wouldn’t condone lying etc in court. On the other hand…I would have no sympathy for any person—none—if they had an affair and tore up either people’s lives in the process.

You’re married until you’re divorced. It is the ethical and right thing to do to respect your spouse (especially if you have 20+ years together!) , your kids, and the institution of marriage by keeping it in your pants until the divorce is final.

I have little sympathy for the story as told.

That’s bullshit. The relationship was over. Why the hell should government bureaucracy change that?

So, to you, the key factor in a marriage is geographical proximity?

They’re his step-kids. Would you people please actually read the OP before you jizz your outrage all over it?

Which, again, has absolutely nothing to do with the OP.

Because the most imporant part of any marriage is the beauracratic sanction.

Apparently, that’s not the only thing you have little of.

You know that old addage “what you resist, persists”? Impatience was definitely my side kick prior to this process. I must say that I have taken enough deep breaths of late that I’m in some kind of zone now.

Immediately it certainly did. The next morning I thought of so many things I’d meant to say - but you know - whatever. I made the points I thought were of most value. I will only contact her again if I win the lottery. I think she’d want to know that, don’t you?

Miller said:

I usually ignore banal one liners but I’ll bite.

No, and that’s not what I said. Your’re married until you’re divorced. In a society that is steeped in relativism, selfishness and instant gratification it is seemingly the status quo to get a running head start on your new life before ending the last one. It is absolutely clear that Heckity is hip deep in another man’s divorce/support proceedings. She doesn’t have a front row seat—she’s in the press box. In my opinion, (bolded so you won’t miss it) she has no business in this woman’s affairs. None. Heckity offered us the ‘living together but apart’ rationale as a means of defending their actions. I’m simply saying I don’t buy it. She may have been honest, and maybe within her moral value system, from where I sit they are both wrong. Sure the marriage[s] were falling apart, and likely would have failed either way. But she took up with a married man, plain and simple. The landscape is littered with broken women who’s lovers have gone back to their wives. And there is no shortage of embittered ex-spouses who would see someone like Heckity as an interloper. I’m guessing Heckity’s beau’s ex sees it that way, by evidence of this comment:

The woman was married to this guy for 20 years for Pete’s sake! But Heckity can’t understand the woman’s vitriol? After all, Heckity did wait until he moved out before getting intimate. Heckity and her man acted perfectly honorably–morally in fact. :smack:

In my opinion, she did cheat—they both did. There was nothing moral about it. Even then, it is naive in the extream to insert herself in these proceedings and not expect the maximum hostility from this woman. In my opinion Heckity is out of line, and this is not her fight or her business.

In my opinion, the letter she posted here was vindictive, spiteful and rubbing salt on an open wound.

Well…The comment “She has turned his (adult) kids against him…” (bolding mine) and, “His ex’s children were his in every way…” and, “He will always be their father in his own eyes”, led me to believe the relationship he had with these kids wasn’t an incidental one. So what’s your point? If so, whether he biologically sired them or not, it’s clear they had a relationship–a close one. And it’s clear that they’re down on Heckity’s dude. I wonder why that is…

That is utter nonsense. These are human beings. I sat through a class once and the presenter stated that divorce is second to only the death of a close relative in terms of events that cause stress. This is likely one of the most traumatic events in both of their lives—even if it has been a slow motion divorce that has developed over a few years. Many divorces(I would guess most) are highly charged, traumatic emotional events. People are often not rational—they’re hurt, afraid for the future (particularly among women who typically have fewer assets and earning power) angry, depressed, even confused.

And spiteful.

You think Heckity’s presence is helping the situation? I personally know a half dozen women who kept their husband’s tools. My own sister kept my BIL’s welder and welding tools. (an expensive outfit)(and of course, husbands are just as vindictive) Needless to say she hasn’t done much welding the 15 years that welder has sat in the garage. Into this cauldron Heckity has inserted herself , proclaiming her moral indignation.

It seems that Heckity is sincere and wants to be fair. (and wants everyone else to play fair) But I think it is a mistake to take up with a married man, a mistake to get embroiled in a divorce/support war, and a big mistake to make contact in any way with this woman. It will only make her more intractable. There also exists at least the possibilty that this man will end up back home. (no matter how slim) There exists a greater chance that 3 years from now they’ll be over. It is common for a man to come to despise the woman who fought his battles, licked his wounds and nursed him back to health. She personifies all that was weak in him. The colloquial term is “rebound woman/man.” No one thinks they are in real time, but many do in retrospect–after the fact.

I am single, and I have been approached by women who were going through a divorce, or within days or weeks of a divorce. I’ve seen too much carnage to go for that. If your spouse isn’t at least 2 years into your rear view mirror, I’m not interested. In my experience, it takes time to heal and regain your spiritual, emotional and mental bearings. I certainly wouldn’t want to argue with someone’s husband about his child support/alimony! I wish Heckity the best, but I think she’s taken on a risky job. I hope it doesn’t end up badly.

That’s just my opinion.

The woman just used lies and deceit to clear out Heckity’s bank account. That sounds like this woman is all up in her business to me.

Which is, at best, evidence that Heckity might be foolish to start a relationship with this man. I don’t see where you’re getting a moral dimension to the decision, though.

Yes, she did. She waited until the relationship was over. How is that immoral?

It’s her money that’s gone. That makes it her business. Pretty literally, when you get right down to it. And while she can probably expect hostility, that doesn’t excuse the woman’s total moral failure. Which was, remember, the point of the OP. Not Heckity’s imagined moral failure, despite your efforts to spin it as such. At least Heckity hasn’t broken any laws, but I guess that doesn’t figure into your decision to attack her for not measuring up to your quaint “morality.”

I’ll grant that, but I’d say it’s deservedly so.

Because the ex-wife has forced them to pick a side, and they sided with their blood parent?

Well, I guess that excuses lying in a court of law, then!

Which has nothing to do with morality, of course, so is entirely irrelevent.

Guess what I think of your opinion?

A few small points to make:

  1. I was named as a co-respondent. That has not happened in courts here since the 40s. Apparently they wanted to “question” me as to my ability to contribute to her support over the long term. Hence, I was not butting into their business. She pulled me into it.

  2. We have a “no fault” divorce law here. It doesn’t matter what activity happened before the dissolution of the marriage including infidelity - so that really had no bearing on the court’s decision.

  3. The confidential information she shared with the courts was with respect to a hard-earned recovery from substance abuse - she tried to shame him into giving her everything.

  4. I did contribute to her support prior to going to court. No support had been awarded we voluntarily sold assets to ensure her (mortgage free) household bills were maintained. We certainly recognized she was going through a difficult time. He tried numerous times to make a settlement (before going to court) that were more than generous.

  5. The children have been pulled into a sordid tale of untruths. That in my mind is unconscionable. To play on the concerns they naturally had for her and reinforce them with hatred has done them no favours.

  6. My former spouse and I have managed to behave with dignity - without lawyers or court - recognizing that we had outgrown a relationship begun at 20. It was far from easy. But it can be done.

  7. This new relationship does not fall under rebound. Neither of us were looking for a “mate”. I was headed out long before I met him and had a plan to manage my life alone. He was doing the same, with an offer on a property, etc. The suggestion that we become roommates was the only “suggestive” comment made before leaving our mates. We are working diligently to be honest with and kind to one another. So far it is working incredibly well. I hope that it will be a successful long term relationship. His values match mine. His background matches mine. His goals line up with mine. I’m not concerned.

  8. While my letter may have rubbed salt in the wound - it would also have a releasing effect, don’t you think? For me for sure, but also for her. I’m (we are) not hunting her down, looking to harm her, pursue her in anyway, etc. I’m sorry to say that had the decision gone the other way - we would not have felt as secure.

Miller said:

Help me out here…where does Heckity say in this thread that this woman used deceipt to clear out Heckity’s bank account? I swear, I’ve read her posts 3 times and I don’t see it.

Even if it were true, how could have happened if Heckity had not chosen to be a combatant in a fight that was not hers.

She’s totally invested here. Again and again she says things like “We were to go to court in June…”, “Our lawyer…”, “We spent $35K on our lawyer - and they’ve awarded her costs to us…”,“We are destroyed financially by this…”, "Our lawyer thinks we should appeal…’

Heckity is in love and she is helping to finance his war. That’s *her *choice. If the ex got hold of Heckity’s money, in her own account, please show it to me as I missed it in the thread. (which should put the ex in jail…)

OTOH…If Heckity [extremely] foolishly co-mingled her money with a married man—where in many jurisditions any money held is ‘marital’ property until the divorce is final—who’s at fault?

Earlier you said that these kids were his step kids. However, it appears these kids were his kids in every single way–except biologically. Looks a little different contextually, huh?

Now you’ve said, “The woman just used lies and deceit to clear out Heckity’s bank account…” Are you perhaps taking some creative license with this also?

Heckity brought up the moral dimension—more than once. I am simply pointing out that many people would not consider her actions beyond moral reproach. Certainly the ex doesn’t see Heckity as moral.

Are we reading the same thread? The OP SCREAMS that this is far from over. Court date after court date, accusations, financial ruin, confrontations, poisoned emails----this thing is far from over.

If her money is gone, it’s becasue she spent it. She spent it on an expensive lawyer (there are very few cheap ones) fighting a war that is often defined by deceipt, acrimony and guerilla tactics. Was she mislead? Did she think she was going to a real estate closing?

Grown men and women being forced to choose? I’d say there’s a lot more baggage here than the ‘carry on’ variety.

I’ll be up all night worrying about it. :smiley:

I’ll give you the last word. I made a wrong turn and ended up in The Pit—not usually my hang out. (quaint morality and all…) I’ll say this in parting: I aplogize to Heckity if I offended her. She is obviously very loyal and committed. She obviously has a strong sense of fair play. I hope it gets better, and in time everyone finds some peace and closure.

Seconded. The red tape part is irrelevant from a moral point of view.