What's so wrong in calling a woman good-looking?

[Jragon]

@Der_Trihs

That’s never going to happen, short of altering human nature. At most you’ll be able to flip society into one where female beauty and the appreciation of it is condemned as sinful. You’ll end up with something like Afghanistan under the Taliban, not an egalitarian Utopia.

I, for one, think that people can adopt reasoned and nuanced positions about things. I don’t really agree that people can’t grasp the concept of “guys? Maybe we do this a liiiiiitle too often, tone it down.”

@BigT

It sucks, but a lot of feminists have a problem with their own gender and sexuality. It sucks because it undermines their otherwise correct or at least arguable positions.

Okay, I’ll agree with you that a lot of feminists have bizarre sex and appearance hangups that I heavily disagree with – even some (but not all) purportedly “sex positive” ones, but I don’t think that’s the case in this specific scenario.

It’s really pretty basic. Would it be wrong to say it to a guy? If not, then it’s not sexist. To claim otherwise is to be sexist yourself. It’s saying that women are too fragile to understand that, like guys, some are less attractive than others.

Againagain, it’s not the complement itself that’s at issue, it’s the volume and history. It’s a bit similar to complementing your black friend who climbs trees really well by saying he’s “a regular monkey.” Okay to say to almost any other race, and perfectly complementary, but you probably shouldn’t say it because of the history. It’s a little different here since “pretty” is almost always a complement, but the disproportionate degree to which women get the comment (combined with a history of discrimination and dismissiveness based on looks) is the main culprit. Once women and men get it at equal levels (and preferably women get it less rather than men get it more, but it could go either way and I’d go along with it) – it’s okay.

I have the same problem with the Nostalgia Chick, who has given up on feminism because people would make comments about how attractive she was. Because of these feminists that teach this bullshit, she’s unable to focus on the huge number of people who tell her how great her work is. Nor can she realize that people can find her attractive and still think her work is great.

I always got more of a lack of self-esteem and bad body image vibe from Lindsay. Way back when she first came to the site I was on their forums. She would regularly say in topics something about how she’s fat or ugly, then people would shower her with complements and her response was “yeah, well, put a video on the internet and suddenly everyone thinks you’re hot when they wouldn’t give you the time of day in real life.”

FWIW, I don’t think it’s nearly as wrong to make comments about a celebrity’s appearance. There still is a problem about fixating on women’s looks (open and thread on the Dope about a man vs one about a woman) – but in that context it’s a bit more understandable IMO. Especially in this specific case since Lindsay mentions her own looks a decent number of times.

However, I haven’t paid attention to her in a looooong time, so it’s possible I missed something.

[Der_Trihs]

@Jragon

I, for one, think that people can adopt reasoned and nuanced positions about things. I don’t really agree that people can’t grasp the concept of “guys? Maybe we do this a liiiiiitle too often, tone it down.”

Men aren’t being told to tone it down. They are being told to never complement women, at all, ever. They are told that complements are insults, when applied to women. But not men.

And this isn’t “nuanced” at all. All I’m hearing is that nuance doesn’t matter; that he complemented a woman, that’s sexist, end of story. Her opinion doesn’t matter, his intentions don’t matter, what matters is making it into a political show of how Men Are Pigs.

@Jragon

It’s a little different here since “pretty” is almost always a complement, but the disproportionate degree to which women get the comment (combined with a history of discrimination and dismissiveness based on looks) is the main culprit. Once women and men get it at equal levels (and preferably women get it less rather than men get it more, but it could go either way and I’d go along with it) – it’s okay.

That’s silly. Once you browbeat men into not complementing women, then they aren’t going to do so at all. They aren’t going to suddenly turn around and start doing so according to your carefully metered, politically determined standard. They’ll have been convinced that complimenting women is wrong, and probably with the accompanying baggage that female beauty is evil and that women are evil temptresses for luring men into sinful behavior like saying nice things about them.

This is all very Victorian.

[Jragon]

@Der_Trihs

Men aren’t being told to tone it down. They are being told to never complement women, at all, ever. They are told that complements are insults, when applied to women. But not men.

In certain contexts. Very few, if any, people have said never to complement women at all. What has been said is to avoid it in professional, public contexts. What’s more, nobody would have batted an eye if it was about his wife or daughters.

And this isn’t “nuanced” at all. All I’m hearing is that nuance doesn’t matter; that he complemented a woman, that’s sexist, end of story. Her opinion doesn’t matter, his intentions don’t matter, what matters is making it into a political show of how Men Are Pigs.

Perhaps a distinction should be made between “sexist” and “contributing to sexism”. I don’t think the action itself is sexist in that it deliberately demeans or undermines women. I don’t think Obama isn’t sexist to any degree just by way of merely saying what he said. It’s not a “sexist action” so much as it contributes to the cultural underpinning of society that a woman’s looks are very important.

I will say that if – via other avenues – women’s looks become less important, then complementing a woman on her looks won’t matter one lick. So avoiding it isn’t necessary, and could even morph from contributing to sexism to perfectly benevolent without any change in the volume of usage. However, I also think that encouraging people to stop using it is, in itself, its own avenue to increasing the important of a woman’s looks in professional contexts – and a relatively easy one to focus on. It’s part symptom, part cause. It could easily go away without touching it directly, but when it’s such a visible symptom, focusing on it makes sense to me.

That’s silly. Once you browbeat men into not complementing women, then they aren’t going to do so at all. They aren’t going to suddenly turn around and start doing so according to your carefully metered, politically determined standard. They’ll have been convinced that complimenting women is wrong, and probably with the accompanying baggage that female beauty is evil and that women are evil temptresses for luring men into sinful behavior like saying nice things about them.

This is all very Victorian.

There definitely is a contingent of people that make, IMO, asinine attacks against women practicing fashion. Like the criticisms of Science, It’s a Girl Thing. Many people criticized it because… uh… it had makeup, high heels, and fashionable women in it. I, and most STEM women I personally know, were of the opinion “er… okay, why can’t a woman be a kickass scientist AND pretty AND fashionable? Besides, this is meant to appeal to the average girl who thinks science doesn’t ‘want her’ because she likes shoes and fashion – not the unfashionable geeky nerdy girl who doesn’t need to be told science is awesome.”

However, being encouraged to not complement women on looks in professional contexts is not the same thing as saying looking good is bad. I really don’t see where this is coming from.

And getting rid of calling women pretty isn’t going to get rid of the sexist underpinning by itself, it’s merely one facet among several. The point isn’t to browbeat people into submission, it’s to give them something to think about. The value is more in the acceptance and change of the social underpinning about women’s looks than the phrase itself. The phrase is merely an avenue to explore and attack it from. Personally, I don’t really expect everyone to stop saying it – I’ll be happy when the underlying problem is addressed, regardless of how often it’s still said (though I suspect that if the problem is addressed it will naturally decrease). But as long as I feel that this is a useful example of the problem, I’ll criticize it.

[Der_Trihs]

@Jragon

However, being encouraged to not complement women on looks in professional contexts is not the same thing as saying looking good is bad. I really don’t see where this is coming from.

Human nature. Appreciating women’s looks is simply how people are built; in order to get them to stop, you have to heavily indoctrinate them against their own instinctive impulses. Very strong instinctive impulses. You are telling them that their appreciation of women’s looks is wrong; and they will either turn that inwards in the form of guilt, or outwards in the form of hostility to women. That is after all how this sort of thing has always worked throughout human history.

@Jragon

The point isn’t to browbeat people into submission, it’s to give them something to think about.

“Female beauty and sexuality is bad”; that’s what this makes people think. Like I said, very Victorian.

[Jragon]

@Der_Trihs

Human nature. Appreciating women’s looks is simply how people are built; in order to get them to stop, you have to heavily indoctrinate them against their own instinctive impulses. Very strong instinctive impulses. You are telling them that their appreciation of women’s looks is wrong; and they will either turn that inwards in the form of guilt, or outwards in the form of hostility to women. That is after all how this sort of thing has always worked throughout human history.

“Female beauty and sexuality is bad”; that’s what this makes people think. Like I said, very Victorian.

No, appreciating a woman’s looks and her sexuality is great! Wonderful! It should also be completely irrelevant, and divorced from the perception of their professional performance and worth. At the moment it’s not so people need to think, reason, and consider their actions until that’s no longer a problem. The problem isn’t that people appreciate womens’ looks, it’s that they apply that appreciation to inappropriate contexts. The odd irrelevant comment is okay in professional contexts, but in the current zeitgeist it’s too far on the side of “inappropriately applied” than it is on the side of “merely irrelevant fluff.”

Which is why nobody is arguing that it’s wrong to tell your girlfriend she’s pretty. Nor would it be wrong for Obama to tell this woman she was pretty when, y’know, not giving a speech. Or introducing her to a friend in private (for real private, like chatting at the office. Not “at an event that is technically private, but is going to be reported on.”)

[Der_Trihs]

@Jragon

No, appreciating a woman’s looks and her sexuality is great! Wonderful!

That statement is the exact opposite of the message sent by this affair. The message is that it’s OK to speak of how men look, evil to speak of how women look. Male good looks is OK to bring up; female beauty is sinful, too evil even to mention. It’s a call for putting women in burkas, not a call for equality.

[Jragon]

@Der_Trihs

That statement is the exact opposite of the message sent by this affair. The message is that it’s OK to speak of how men look, evil to speak of how women look. Male good looks is OK to bring up; female beauty is sinful, too evil even to mention. It’s a call for putting women in burkas, not a call for equality.

Only if you read the headlines and the shorter, less in-depth, without reading the more detailed analyses and considering what people are actually saying.

[DSeid]

What’s so hard about this? When you are in politics you bend over backwards to not say or do things that sound or look like extant stereotypes. You are more than your own individual interaction; you are a model for expected behaviors. You and the interaction represent. You may call lots of young men “boy”, White Black or Hispanic, but yes, if you are a White politician you are gonna be careful not call a Black young man that on tape, even if that man is a friend who knows that you had no racist intent.

[Der_Trihs]

@Jragon

Only if you read the headlines and the shorter, less in-depth, without reading the more detailed analyses and considering what people are actually saying.

What people are saying, is that complementing a woman is wrong. And I doubt many people are going to pay much attention to any “detailed analysis”. What they are going to pay attention to is the idea that it’s OK to compliment a man, bad to compliment a woman.

[even_sven]

Easy rule:

When something is appropriate fodder for discussion in a professional setting, it’s generally something that is appropriate to discuss the whole spectrum of.

For example I may say Anne is a hard worker to her supervisor. But I can also say it seems like she has been slacking lately. I can say she is super friendly, but I can also say her off putting manner has been affecting customers. Obviously you are going to save the critiques for meetings and not public speeches, but the point here is that these are all open topics for the workplace.

If your compliment is obviously inappropriate and irrelevant when taken to the other extreme, it’s best to avoid it. If its a profession setting where you you wouldn’t say “Wow, Anne sure is looking gnarly,” it’s also a bad time to talk about how hot she is.

[Barrett_Bonden]

General point of information: the word is compliment.

If you complement someone, it means you complete him/her.

@Der_Trihs

What people are saying, is that complementing a woman is wrong. And I doubt many people are going to pay much attention to any “detailed analysis”. What they are going to pay attention to is the idea that it’s OK to compliment a man, bad to compliment a woman.

If some people can’t handle the concept that some conversation is contextually inappropriate, maybe it’s a good thing if their takeaway message is “don’t say it.” This will spare them and other people embarrassment.

Those people who have higher comprehension skills can handle the nuance and are still free to give appropriate compliments.

[Jragon]

@Barrett_Bonden

General point of information: the word is compliment.

If you complement someone, it means you complete him/her.

:smack:

I knew that, how did I mess that up for multiple posts worth of text?

[VinylTurnip]

@Der_Trihs

Is there any evidence that she was?

“Well, WE’RE all outraged… so she HAS to be!”

I thought it was a minor gaffe until I heard that he’s said similar things about male colleagues. Plus it was a private fundraiser. It’s a non-story that serves as a nice projection screen for everybody’s moral agendas, political spin and personal hangups.

[John_Mace]

@VinylTurnip

“Well, WE’RE all outraged… so she HAS to be!”

I thought it was a minor gaffe until I heard that he’s said similar things about male colleagues. Plus it was a private fundraiser. It’s a non-story that serves as a nice projection screen for everybody’s moral agendas, political spin and personal hangups.

Private? What does that word even mean anymore?

[YogSothoth]

I think that we can all imagine instances where such compliments that men make to women are condescending. But we can all imagine instances where it is now.

Now, and here’s the part we have to use our giant monkey brains for, which instance do you imagine this to be?

[Rucksinator]

This reminds me of the time I was subbing at a school and another substitute teacher with her class in the hall complained that “Those 3 black girls keep” (doing something, I don’t remember).
There was nothing technically wrong or racist with what she said, but I sure as hell wouldn’t have said it.

[colander]

@YogSosoth

I think that we can all imagine instances where such compliments that men make to women are condescending. But we can all imagine instances where it is now.

Now, and here’s the part we have to use our giant monkey brains for, which instance do you imagine this to be?

what

[YogSothoth]

@colander

what

I meant, “…where it is noT”

[colander]

@YogSosoth

I meant, “…where it is noT”

yes, i know.

but even taking that into account, your question still makes no sense

i recommend reading and understanding all Jragon’s posts in this thread before posing any questions

(it is quite clear that right now you have failed to perform at least one of the above actions)

[YogSothoth]

Too many pages