What's up with Job's Daughters?

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

Short (not really) background:

My wife and I share (50/50) custody of her 2 kids with her ex. Girl: 16. Boy: 13.

Recently, we banned my 13 year old stepson from playing “Airsoft”, as he calls it, with his friends. Basically, pellet guns. My wife and I are opposed to guns in any form for children. Safety, philosophical, and moral issues. He is not allowed to go over to the main friends house where they play this, nor is allowed to keep the equipment at our house, or buy any of the equipment when he is with us. He doesn’t like it, but we explained that it is ok to not agree with us and have a different opinion, but we are his parents and that is final.

My wife and I have been struggling with explaining this to my stepdaughter for years, and she just doesn’t get it, or doesn’t want to get it.

For several years she has been attending Job’s Daughters functions while at her father’s. His ex-girlfriend got her in with her kids, I think. My wife and I are very opposed to it, but have only slightly limited her involvement whe she is with us.

Our reasons: both of us are agnostic at least, perhaps leaning towaards atheist. I was raised a cultural Jew, and still identify with that. After reading about Job’s Daughters, and even attending one of their ceremonies, I was not comfortable.

We talked to my stepdaughter a couple of years ago about our concerns, and basically said that we don’t like it, so we are saying no to those activities when she is with us. We tried to explain our stance, but she got upset and tried to explain that she only went to be with her friends, more of a social gathering. So we relented a little, dropping her off for field trips and the like.

Lately the activities have become more frequent, cutting into our 50% time with her.

Now that we have talked to our son about his restriction, we have also decided to stop all of her activities with Job’s Daughters when she is with us. All of them across the board, just like we did for my stepson and his pellet guns. No meetings, no going to a fellow member’s house to work on a project, no field trips.

OK, now to my main questions.

What basis do my wife and I have for being uncomfortable with Job’s Daughters? We have our concerns, which I will share if asked, and honestly they may be overblown.

But my house is my house, and what I say goes. Right? Or are we being too draconian?

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Assuming your wife is the primary custodial parent for purposes of decision-making in these areas, there’s no question you have (well, she has) the right to curtail these activities.

It’s unclear to me why you believe this is a wise decision, however. The pellet gun decision is understandable for safety reasons. (I would argue that there’s nothign immoral about playing with guns, but guns that shoot pellets are certainly fair game for prohibition). The Job’s Daughters decision baffles me.

3

I’ve never heard of them but here is a link to them.
What about them concerns you? Are they brainwashing her?

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My mom was a Job’s Daughter back in the sixties; I’ll ask her about it when I get the chance. I always got the impression that is was a sort of Stonemasons for young women, or the daughters of such individuals…

I also got the sense that it looked good on applications/resumes and was just another network connection for scholarships and the like; much like Interact Club or Key Club (the high school versions of Rotary International and Kiwanis).

I’ll put my mom’s two cents in once I talk to her.

5

I’m asking, out of curiosity.

It looks like they are like Rainbows, right? I was a Rainbow girl for several years and I have pretty fond memories.

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As an atheist, I can understand your philosophical objections. I do think, though, that a 16 she is naturally going to want to spend more time with her friends than she would need to a few years ago. As teenage social activities go, this seems pretty benign, especially if they do some community service activities.

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With a teenager, you also have to beware of the “forbidden fruit” syndrome. The more you (old person that you are) object, the more attractive it becomes.

My husband and I are non-religious, but we never forbade our daughters from going to any church or religious activity they wanted to. They soon found the services boring and/or the teachings illogical.

8

I was a Job’s Daughter, as was my mother. In terms of religion, I was baptized Catholic, but my only church attending experience was a year of going to a Presbyterian church with a friend when I was in fourth grade. I’m pretty sure I don’t believe in God.

Having said that, I enjoyed my JD time. It taught me a lot about organizing events, running meetings, public speaking, etc. (kind of a “building character” sort of organization). It also provided a lot of social gatherings, and I made some good friends with it. Yeah, we had to say a prayer or two at meetings, but I basically memorized it, said it and didn’t pay it much mind.

Based on my experience, it’s a GOOD type of group to be involved with, compared to other things out there. And quite frankly, when I was in it (late 80’s early 90’s) membership was dwindling and interested parties were hard to come by. It’s kind of perceived (IMHO) as a goody goody type organization, so I’m surprised in this day and age anyone would want to be involved with it.

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None. It’s a good organization. Both my sisters were Job’s Daughters and my brother & I were both DeMolays. As for religious inculcation: I’m basically a hard-core athiest and if a daughter of mine wanted to join Job’s, I’d be all for it.

You’d be a lot better off getting involved with something your kid loves, especially when it’s a great organization rich with history and tradition, than you’d be trying to ban her from it.

Frankly, it seems bizarre that you could “explain your stance” and still, a couple years later, not know whether you have a basis for your objections. Respectfully, it sounds like you are being prejudiced.

Your 50% time is for parenting; your stepdaughter is not a consumer good, she’s your daughter. Spending some of your 50% time at Job’s activities as a parent would be great for the family.

Finally, comparing Job’s with your son getting into pellet-gun fights—a great way to get himself shot if he takes the red cap off the muzzle—is simply ridiculous.

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You can work out your issues with the organization on your own, but I will note that I see a potential problem with what she will see as a reactive (and retroactive) imposition on her.

She is three years older, and would normally have a bit more freedom with that age.
She has already been engaging in those activities that you now threaten to curtail in (what will look to her as) an effort to treat her and the boy “equally.”
This comes across as a retroactive “punishment” just to make the kids “equal” (giving her a social demotion).

Now, if her JD activities are, indeed, cutting into the shared time she has with you, that is an issue to be addressed. However, addressing that issue could include negotiating with her father for different times so that all the JD activities occurred during their custody or it could include limiting her activities when with you to either only special or only regular occasions. However, a complete declaration that you are curtailing an existing activity (which you have permitted for several years, even if with reservations), is going to appear punitive regardless what explanation you provide.

As to any influence they may have: your daughter is probably correct that she is most interested in the social aspects; as a Masonic organization, they are not going to be pushing religion very hard (unless you have a “Christianized” local chapter); and as a charitable outfit, they are not going to be a really bad influence on a teenage girl.

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Until you reveal some more concrete reasons for the ban, I’m leaning toward “beyond draconian”. AFAIK, and my knowlege here is admittedly limited, Job’s Daughters is a pretty benign social organization that actually does some good community service projects. Is it just their ties to the Masons that bugs you?

You complain that “Lately the activities have become more frequent, cutting into our 50% time with her.” Well, at 16 years old she should be spreading her wings and spending less time with her parents. It is not her fault, after all, that she only spends 50% of her time with you and her mom. IMHO, to force her to quit doing productive things she enjoys
in order to spend more time with you is both short sighted and counter-productive.

As a father of 3, I concur that sometimes “Because I said so” is good enough. In this case, hoiwever, I would guess that her reaction is something along the lines of “You guys ruined my family life with the divorce and re-marriages, now you’re trying to ruin my life with my friends!” You’d better have some well thought out, logical reasons for this decision.

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I was involved in a few Christian organizations throughout junior high and high school. Mind you, I’m not religious at all, but they allowed for alot of opportunities (many that have been previously mentioned).

Friends (obviously), some freedom, scholarships, volunteer work throughout the community, community connections, etc.

And honestly, what would you rather she do? She’s working with a community group and doing good things. She could be sitting at the park smoking or drinking instead. I’m just saying.

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I don’t know much about Job’s Daughters but they sound like a positive thing for her. If you’re worried about her picking up some funky religion (makes it sound like a case of head lice), that’s up to you and her mom. Did you raise her to be a good critical thinker, know right from wrong, etc? Then you have very little to worry about. She’ll be able to see her way through any problems.

I was raised in a family where religion was simply absent. However, my parents sent me to a very catholic school; nuns in penguin suits, chapel at least once a week, prayed before, during, and after everything. If hanging around people from another religion rubbed off, I should be catholic. But I’m not, I’m atheist to the bone because my parents raised me to think things through and I came to the conclusion there is no god, despite (and partially because of) my years spent at catholic school.

It would be much more useful to your relationship for you to let her do this (though she shouldn’t just disappear completely from the family) and you be involved as much as possible. You’ll get more time with her and you can monitor the goings on, if you’re worried. Never mind that it’s a good way to show that you respect her for the adult she’s becoming by supporting her positive choices, even though you might not agree with those choices.

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There is a lot of room for parent involvement in Job’s Daughters.

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Oh yeah. As Bethel Guardian, my mom probably did more work than I did.

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I’m no Biblical scholar, and when I first read this thread, I confused Job with Lot. Hilarity ensued and what not.

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Great responses so far. I appreciate them, even when they disagree with me!

I’m not trying to be reactionary here. In fact, by writing this, I imagine many people will say I am making some huge leaps, unfounded in reality or logic. Maybe. But that is why I am asking these questions. I want all the facts in front of me.

Let me try and capsulize some of the salient points as to why I am concerned about this organization:

As several have stated above, many believe it is a good thing to be involved in charitable and/or good deeds through an organization. Sadly, as far as I can tell, this group does not do ANY charitable work, other than serving food at the the local lodge once a month to the senior members, keeping the teenage girls their until midnight or later on a school night.

I am concerned about the Masonic undercurrent (for lack of a better term), which I don’t really understand fully, to be honest. As well as the Christian underpinnings of this group.

I may well be far off track, but I am not comfortable with any group that would not allow certain members, whatever the criteria. I have found this group exclusionary and divisive. They have no members of color, nor any other minority. And we live in a pretty diverse neighborhood. They exclude based on religion, because they are a religious group. Fine. I have no problem with that. But I do have a problem with a religious group that, if she were my biological daughter, and was rasied Jewish, would not admit her. Even though they would supposedly be gathering for social reasons and to perform charitable acts, which, as stated above, I have never seen them do.

Now, this may boggle some people’s minds, but as Jew, I am not thrilled with my stepdaughter hanging out with a bunch of people who won’t let me in to their group because of my religion or cultural background.

As tomndebb mentioned, this may very well be a “Christianized” local chapter. They seem pretty heavy into the ceremony of Christian religion, including prayer. I’m not into that, but if she is, fine. But by her own admission, that’s not why she goes.

But an event I went to about a year ago disturbed me. I’m not sure of the name of the ceremony they gave it, but it was sort of like a confirmation, or “now you are grown up” ceremony. Heavily religious, girls dressed in white robes, many prayers to Jesus, interminable boredom on my part. (I didn’t let her know that). But what really blew me away was the overt symbolism involving the cross, submission and how these were girls were told what to do, dress, behave.

At one point in the ceremony, the girls were kneeling in their virginal white robes, clearly in a cross like pattern on the floor. I turned to my wife with an odd look on my face. Now, my wife did quite a bit of study on the subject of racist groups throughout American history in college, and she is of the belief that much of the symbolism that Job’s Daughters employs is directly descendant from KKK meetings. I don’t necessarily agree with her, and I wish I could remember more specifics about the event we went to, but the overall impression I came away with was that the ceremony was either very heavily Catholic, or leaning towards what my wife ws thinking.

Another thing: they require the girls to wear certain styles of dress, mandating that they wear skirts, of a certain length, to all meetings. Certain types of shoes are not allowed (can’t remember which). No hosiery of any kind. No jewelry.

My wife and I HAVE talked to my stepdaughter about this organization. We tried to remain cool, and have a rational discussion with her about why we do not think this is the best way to spend her time. I explained my feelings about the exclusion of Jews, or any other religion. She told me that it was not a religious group, which she claimed she had asked about when she started going. When I asked her if they prayed, she said yes. I tried to explain that that made it a religious group, whoever or whatever they prayed to. She didn’t agree, and told me that “that’s what they said you would say”. That’s when I started to get even more uncomfortable with her involvement.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings. More discussion.

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{QUOTE]but we never forbade our daughters from going to any church or religious activity they wanted to.
[/QUOTE]

Notes from a hardcore athetist (from the POV of someone like Pat Robertson)…"I refuse to let my child go to church!!! Their brains might be rotted…oh they are getting exposed to Jesus and good works…we have to work against Jesus!
I think also that Job’s Daughter’s runs a hearing aid program…I know I saw somethign mentioned on a hearing related list I’m on (I’m hard of hearing and wear aids)

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And what does the purple stand for, beating niggers black and blue? Give me a break. It’s explained right there in the ceremony for everybody to hear.

As for the symbolism of the cross, so what? It’s a ritual, it connects people across time and space through the common bond of a shared ceremony. Based on first-hand experience, I’m comfortable saying that the power of the symbolism is based on the beliefs one has going in. If she’s not already religious, then the symbolism is not going to be much of an influence.

Let me explain it in no uncertain terms: That is a tinfoil-hat concern. The masons are just a fraternal organization and they sponsor Job’s & DeMolay, thus the connection.

That’s news to me. Besides, you’re using Christian undertones as a reason to exclude her from the organization…

So get involved and expand the group’s activities.

You’re also too old and not a girl. However, in all seriousness, you might want to double check on that one because I was heavily involved in that stuff and what you’re talking about is not something that I have ever heard of.

My fraternity had the same complaint about not having enough minority members. We tried getting minorities, they wouldn’t join. Or rather, the right minorities wouldn’t join. (The members who were Mexicans, Asians, gays, or Jews didn’t seem to count as minorities.) Regardless, what you’re observing is not a sign of exclusion; the girls recruit from the people they want to join and you’re probably seeing self-selection bias rather than racial or ethnic discrimination. Here’s your chance to get involved and make a change.

So? Maybe their style guide needs to be updated, but a dress code ain’t that big of a deal for a voluntary youth group.

And they were right. A group that has religious elements in its ritual is not, because of that, a religious group. These rituals have been around for a while and were written in a different societal setting. We may not like all of the ritual elements, but the fact remains that they are ritual and they are important because they provide a deep and meaningful bond with with people across space and time. My Jewish fraternity brothers weren’t hung up on the religious overtones of some of our rituals, and I didn’t have a hang up even though I don’t believe. If you don’t understand the power and importance of ritual, then that’s your loss; however, you shouldn’t try to rob your stepdaughter of that important bond with the girls, with history, and with something larger than she is. The connection is not with some dumb god, it is completely secular; I say this as a hard-core athiest. All religion is evil, yet I would gladly encourage my daughter (if I had one) to get involved in Job’s.
Before you decide, please do me this favor: Get the book Them by Jon Ronson. Your concerns are making you sound a bit like the subjects of his book

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madcossack, I’m not going to try to talk you into liking this organization. To each their own. I think Job’s is pretty old fashioned, to be sure. Those white robes were the “uniform” so to speak of the meetings we held. And even at 12 years old, I wasn’t stupid enough to not see they sort of resembled KKK robes. Hell, we used to pull the sleeves (which are big and flowy) over our heads to mock that kind of thing.

My personal experience with Job’s was a positive one, both socially, and from a growth perspective. YMMV, and I can see why you might be hesitant with this one - it’s pretty old fashioned.

Perhaps you should discuss these very issues with your daughter. I would guess she’s mature enough to hear you out and talk about what really she likes, and what she takes away from the group, as well as why you’re concerned.