Are there two different kinds of Airsoft? Because every one that I’ve ever seen has been a paintball gun, not a pellet gun.
Quoting myself:
“Airsoft”, as he calls it,
I’m not sure that’s what it really is called, but it’s definitely not paintball. He had a pellet stuck in his shoe the other day, and when I asked what it was, he confirmed that it was from the guns he played with, calling it “Airsoft”. It’s what he and his friends call it.
And it sure wasn’t soft! 
OK, let me ask a basic question for all of you to ponder. Job’s Daughters, as a subset of the Masons, has some “secret” rituals or some such. By their own admission. My stepdaughter has even said this. I imagine they are innoccuous enough. But I can’t find out what they are. They won’t tell me, their websites don’t say what they are, my stepdaughter won’t say.
Would you let your child be part of an organization that keeps secrets about what the kids do, even to their own parents (because we are not involved in the Masons)?
I’m not trying to be a jerk, just trying to understand.
As a parent, you can attend the meetings, and thus will see all that your child is doing. There was nothing in the ritual that I was not able to tell my parents. Parents of members are allowed at all meetings.
Oh, and the secret things are a secret handshake (no, I’m not kidding) and some key words and stuff. We didn’t grease goats, or say bad things about other people.
All of the “secret” stuff is found in something called The Ritual, which when I was a member was a little purple book given to every member. Other stuff in it were things to memorize, parliamentary procedure, etc. If she’s a member, she should have this. And she IS ALLOWED to show you this.
She is not supposed to show it to non-members, but parents and guardians are okay.
It’s been 15 years, and still, you wouldn’t get me to type out here for you what they are. I’m not sure why, it’s some crazy sense of loyalty, I guess.
One more, and then I’ll really shut up. I googled Job’s Daughter ritual and found a subpar messageboard. In it I was reminded that the “secret” stuff is distributed to members separately on a sheet called Secret Work. It’s a small, one page thing. The rest of the ritual isn’t really secret per se. In fact, on the messageboard I found, someone copied the whole “initiation ritual” into their post. While not good form, it probably doesn’t break JD rules. It may however, be against copyright.
Heh! I thought I was the only one. The OP was MUCH tamer than I expected… 
They’re not. I was at a friend’s house last year (I was 17 then) and I was playing with his airsoft gun. Having shot at everything in his room that could even resemble a target, I looked around, lifted up my sleeve and shot my arm. I had a welt for a week.
That thing was so cool.
Good thing you posted that, I thought this was some kind of Apple convention hosted by Steve Job’s daugters or something.
Airsoft is very different to paintball. Airsoft is basically paintball for adults, since it works on the honour system. The kit is much more realistic and is often used in lower-budget films in place of real guns
I’ll just say something really quick. My parents are divorced and I have a set of stepparents. You’re uncomfortable with the Masonic underpinnings of JD, and that’s OK and whatnot (even if I find it a little over-reactionary). But trying to sway your STEPdaughter out of this because of your insecurities is only going to make a very angry STEPdaughter, and this may affect her relationship with your wife.
I’m just telling you this because my STEPmother’s shoving of shit down my throat over 7 years (and my father allowing it and enforcing it) was one last link in a chain of events that caused me to stop having contact with my father.
FWIW, my sister was in Rainbow Girls (a similar organization) and she had didn’t turn me into a newt or anything. There are far, FAR worse things for 16 year old girls to be doing than going to Job’s Daughters - and I know, because I was doing those things at that age.
Just $.02. And notice, please, how I emphasize some things.
Maybe she is spending less time with you because she wants to spend less time with you. From what I’ve read, I can’t say that I blame her.
My point was that Airsoft guns, at least every one that I ever saw, fires paint filled capsules, not lead or copper pellets.
So if it really was Airsoft, they’ve done something quite different, because if they were firing paint capsules, they wouldn’t be getting pellets stuck in their shoes.
There are Airsoft guns. They fire a 6mm (iirc) sphere. It can be solid plastic or it can be liquid filled. Either way it’s still coming out of an Airsoft gun. In my experience the AIrsoft paintballs were pretty fragile and tended to break prematurely.
As for the OP, I let my kids go to church even though I am an agnostic. I can understand the not wanting to lose time with them but at 16 there’s not much you can do about that without seriously damaging your relationship to them.
Let’s start with the 16-yr. old. What alternatives to the organization have you offered her? She’s 16, and needs outside activities. Does she have access to a car that she can drive herself around in? Is she allowed to go on dates if she wants to? Can she go away from home with friends to the mall, movies, dances, concerts, etc?
At 16, she should be spending much less time with you and her mother.
As to the 13-yr. old and the Airsoft game. I’d let one of mine play it, but I can respect your feelings towards gun-like things. So,what alternatives have you offered to him? Or are both of them expected to stay around the house and the parents 24/7?
Without hearing more, I don’t think I’d have liked being in the position that your two teenagers are in. Rebellion would have ensued.
Sorry if that sounds snarky, but I have reared two natural children and three step children. None have, as yet, wound up in prison.
Give 'em a little slack, let them have some fun and make some mistakes, or at some point you’ll lose them.
From what little I hear about JD’s, I am not that fond of it , either. Mr. beckwall’s daughter has been in it for a few years. It does take up a lot of her time, even when he is visiting her from out of state she will not miss a JD’s event. The white robes and secret recitations give me a strange feeling. I can’t say anything, cuz I am not directly responsible for her activities. She is very hesitant to tell her dad anything about the organization and activities. It really doesn’t matter what I think, but I don’t agree with excluding people due to religious or non-religious beliefs. If I could ask her one question about JD’s, it would be along the lines of how many Muslim or Jewish or atheist girls are in the group. But I don’t meddle in these things, because I am not a parental figure to her.
I hope they teach the girls some social responsibility. I would like to hear more about volunteering, helping others, etc. versus exclusive rituals. His daughter is 15 years old, and it seems like she should be spending a few hours a month as a volunteer somewhere in the community - don’t they look for that now on college applications? Besides which, it’s just good karma to do that type of thing. Hmmm, do they believe in / teach the theory of karma???
I have to agree with John Carter. I’d like to hear what the alternatives are for both of your stepchildren. Your description of the chapter doesn’t sound very appealing to me, but if 1) it’s what your stepdaughter considers her social life, and 2) she isn’t developing the idea that it’s OK to exclude people from organizations for having the “wrong” ethnic or cultural background, I don’t see the long-term harm. She may look back later and wonder why she spent so much time in this group. So, is she participating in some other more diverse group when she’s with you?
I’d also like to hear if you’ve got evidence that certain girls are excluded from this group, or if you just have that impression because of its current membership. If you don’t, then I would also encourage you and your wife to try to become involved in this group so that you can help steer it toward a more service-focused orientation.
My mother was (and still tries to be) very controlling. She has consistently failed to recognize that I developed a different (broader, is probably a better way to put it) set of values than she has. She tries to put a positive spin on my job and my interests, but she’d be much happier if I was more interested in beautiful clothes, perfect hairstyles, tea and embroidery. Fortunately (I think), that’s just not me.
What I’m trying to say is that children don’t always grow up to share all of their parents’ values and interests. Children who are 13 and 16 feel like they are pretty far along in their intellectual development (I felt very grown up at 12 or so…).
I think you have to be very careful in identifying what you “allow” them to do at this stage. They’ll easily find ways to circumvent your orders whenever they’re convinced that they know better than you. They’re at an age where hanging out with parents is not typically big on their list of priorities. If they’re as sensitive and considerate as I was :rolleyes:, they’re not going to notice that your feelings are hurt.
Please tell us a bit more about the rest of their life when they’re with you and your wife.
GT
I have an Airsoft machine gun. It fires 6mm plastic pellets, but you can get 6mm paintballs for it. I don’t think there’s much of a ‘safety issue’ with Airsoft, as long as safety measures are taken. First and foremost: Don’t aim at a person or animal.
Of course, kids will want to shoot at each other. If they wear moderately thick clothing (to keep from raising welts) and full face masks (to keep the pellets out of their eyes, nose and mouth), they should be fine. It sounds to me that the OP’s objection is more ‘moral and philosphical’ than safety-related, because when properly used, they are quite safe.
Kids have always played war games. When I was a kid, we played ‘army’. When my dad was a kid, they played ‘cowboys and indians’. Kids have always pointed things at each other, thrown rocks and dirt clods (we had some epic dirt clod fights when I was a kid) and sticks at each other, wrestled, and pummeled each other. It’s part of being a kid. So I don’t see anything philosophically wrong with it.
Banning a kid from such sport may make him resentful. It may make him the object of ridicule amongst his friends. I (a non-parent) think that a better route would be to allow him to play ‘airsoft’ with his friends as long as they wear appropriate protective equipment and have an adult to monitor them. Yeah, I know. Kids will balk at that. But it seems more ‘fair’ than an outright ban.
Kids get into certain things, and they get out of them. Airsoft is probably one of those things that will lose its lustre eventually. You might want to see if he’s interested in model rocketry. You get to play with fire, and it’s a rush. San Diego is also a good place for surfing (although I never learned how, much to my regret) and sailing (which I did in 14-foot Lidos and Capris nearly every weekend when I was his age).
Disclosure: My Airsoft machine gun states that it is for persons 18 years old or older.
Further disclosure: I played with toy guns when I was a kid (in San Diego, incidentally). Except for having several real guns now, I’m a Liberal when it comes to capital punishment, abortion, health care, education, the Arts, other social programmes, taxes, etc.
Update!
My wife and I talked at length about this subject over the weekend, and discussed many of the points brought up here. Most of you will be pleased that we have altered our stance, quite dramatically.
After talking things through with our daughter, we found out how really committed she is to her involvement in Job’s Daughters. This is the first time she has been forceful and persuasive in her discussion about this. We took a calm, honest, and open approach, and the 3 of us talked about it at length.
We were honest in telling her that it was not something we personally wanted to attend on a regular basis, but that we would support her in her activities. For the first time she talked about her involvement in planning activities for the group, what she wants to do in the future with the group, and why she likes it, beyond hanging out with friends. I was impressed with her committment, and her desire to provide leadership to the younger girls. My wife was won over by the daughter’s appeal to become involved in some of the secular functions, like sewing and activity planning, especially the social work aspects.
Also, our daughter talked about the previous adult leaders of this chapter, who are no longer running it. As has been previously mentioned, it does seem to have become a heavily “Christianized” chapter under their regime, but they have moved on, and all of the girls, especially my daughter, are relieved. It was weighing heavily on her, and almost made her want to quit. Now they seem to be much less “religious”, and more social and community minded.
So, all in all it was a very productive talk. And thanks to the people on this board, things went smoothly. I can be pretty set in my ways, maybe even a bit reactionary at times, but everyone who responded and discussed the issue here was helpful. Thanks to all of you.
PS. We’re still not letting my stepson play with the guns. That wasn’t really the point of this discussion, but I appreciate everyone’s feedback. It just doesn’t sit well with us, and knowing my son and his friends like I do, we don’t think they will be responsible enough to always use protective gear and have a parent supervise. I like the model rocket idea. We have done that a few times, and he loved it, so I brought that up with him as something we could do this summer again. Also, I am very heavily into building model airplanes, and he is starting to get interested in that. Very fun for us to do that stuff together.
It is hard to convey every aspect of a relationship in this format, so I wanted to clarify a point that has bothered me. My step kids are wonderful people, and we get along great. My wife and I take great pride in allowing and watching them develop into strong and independent individuals. We are not as controlling and over-protective as my writings have seemd to indicate. The 4 of us have a very healthy relationship(s). I feel badly that some things came across as differently than they really are. Things are good, and they just got better.
Thanks!
Oh, I believe that you DO have a healthy relationship. You know why? Because you’ve just told us you all sat down and discussed things. I’m glad you all hashed it out. Even if the outcome had been different, the fact that you all communicated where you stood is a good thing.