I’m interpreting the relevant responses in the context of my experience and not, as some have extrapolated, for instance, to corporate negotiations, etc. The underlying principle that offends, in my view, is the use of a request in the service of getting something that belongs to someone else in the absence of effort or where deserving something of someone else’s is not warranted. I think that essence is woven through the various posts.
Oh good, another “How do I human?” SDMB thread.
Man, I don’t get that at all. And the equation to even “mild” theft impresses me as entirely off base.
Even if I might have been disposed to give something to someone else, I may not know that it is wanted/needed if they don’t ask. From the other said, asking is the surest way to assess whether someone will share/part with something.
I vastly prefer direct communication through asking and answering, over trying to guess through interpreting body language and such.
It’s all context- and none of it is theft, although some of could be seen as begging. It’s Inappropriate to ask most people for a piece of diamond jewelry - but not inappropriate to ask my husband. Wouldn’t ask my coworker to buy me a cup of coffee- but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t ask my sister or my best friend or my daughter to buy me a cup of coffee. It would not be inappropriate for the child in the OP to ask a parent to give her an ipad , but it is inappropriate for her to ask the tutor. If my neighbor knows I am disposing of a piece of furniture, it is not inappropriate for him to ask me to give it to him rather than putting it out with the trash.
Can you see the theme? The appropriateness of asking for something depends on 1)what you are asking for and 2)your relationship with the person you’re asking. It’s not about theft, it’s about “we’re not that close” and also about being perceived to be “greedy” or a “taker”. Because after all, if that coworker and I take turns buying two coffees, I’m never actually asking her to buy me a coffee. If she’s going out and asks me if I want one, and I offer her money either before or after her trip to the store, I’m not asking her to buy me a coffee even if she turns the money down. The only way I’m asking her to buy me a coffee is if I explicitly say “Will you buy me a coffee?” without a history of reciprocity and without money changing hands. Only the most Sheldon-like of my acquaintances have ever done that.
What if you were about to upgrade your own iPad and would have considered giving her the old one?
Unless it’s an everyday thing. Then she’s perfectly justified.
etc.
Nope - it’s not theft, but your easy use of “inappropriate” only pushes back the question of what’s wrong with asking (in those contexts in which you find it inappropriate.) What MAKES it inappropriate? I believe I’m coming to believe that it’s an echo of theft, in which someone asks for something they don’t or can’t possess that you have and that they want. No, it’s not theft, but it has a very similar flavor in the attempt to get something from someone, in a circumstance in which it would otherwise not occur, or would occur by deception or force - crime, in other words. At least that’s as close as I can come to understanding my own discomfort with it. It’s not fair. In the absence of any reciprocity, it’s an attempt to take something from someone.
I don’t see it as theft as much as simple over-familiarity. Like, my sisters can ask me for just about anything because I can accurately gauge how they will respond if I tell them no. They may be pissed, but they aren’t going to go postal on me. But I don’t have that same familiarity with a stranger or an acquaintance. Furthermore, I trust my sisters want nothing more than whatever they are explicitly asking for. With a stranger or acquaintance, how do I know their request for a cup of coffee isn’t a way to manipulate me for their own nefarious purposes? “She gave me a cup of coffee, your honor. How was I supposed to know that wasn’t an invitation to stalk her for the next five years?”
Doing a favor for someone often promotes positive feelings for that person. But often it’s wise to keep you guard up and not be too trusting. Indiscriminate “askers” subvert the unspoken code of conduct that we use to stay safe, and thus they generate feelings of unease.
Second paragraph:
You keep wanting to find some underlying reason- and there really isn’t one, not in the sense you’re looking for. Is it “wrong” or “inappropriate” to push your way to the front rather than waiting in an orderly line at a store or to get on the bus? Depends on the cultural norm where you are. Is it “wrong” or “inappropriate” to compliment someone’s belongings? Maybe it is , if the culture you’re in requires them to immediately give you the item you praised.
Pretend that instead of the child you are tutoring , it's the neighbor down the street asking you for an ipad.. The one you don't really know. You say 'hello" to him when you run into each other, you don't know if he's married or has kids, and you think his name is Harry- or is it Fred? Are you going to give him one, or are you going to think he's "pushy", "greedy" "rude" or any of a number of uncomplimentary adjectives? Maybe you'll truly just think "there's no harm in asking" and won't form any opinion about his character - but you'd be in the minority. Even the people on the previously linked page who thought the woman asking to stay was clueless* more than rude seemed to be basing that on the woman's connection with the letter writer's wife - they likely would have thought very differently if someone they just met at the airport asked to stay at their apartment for a few days. And that's the harm in asking- the opinion people will have of you if you make requests that are too far out of line. That's the reason people will literally beg strangers on the street, on trains etc- because they don't care enough about what other people think of them to outweigh the benefits of begging.
- Most of us don’t want to be thought of as clueless either- it’s just not quite as bad as “rude”
In western cultures its only appropriate to ask close relatives (parents and siblings) for things. By extension, adults acting in loco parentis (e.g. teachers) can also be asked for things. Perhaps she sees you, as a teacher, in that light, and she hasn’t seen the fuzzy boundary yet. Just explain it to her - if you want expensive things you have to ask your parents for it.
All right…I admit that I’ve just skimmed the thread. But is there a chance that an 8 y.o., perhaps especially one from a different culture, may not even understand the huge gap between the loan/gift of a pencil or notebook versus an iPad? Especially if the former was freely given without reservation? Just a thought.
I have a few kids, and 8 y.o. is, as I recall, just the beginning of having a concept of relative costs, and that’s for a kid who grew up in the U.S. A kid, who I might put any reasonable request in the grocery cart for (strawberries? Sure! Frozen pizza? Ok! Coloring book, sure, you haven’t gotten a new one in a while. Pack of gum, well…maybe. Big box of Hot Wheels cars…=discussion.)
Maybe this little kid has not had this sort of progressive discourse with her parents.
Except that it’s not.
If your brother/best friend ask for something is that “theft”?
If all humans have equal value* then your best friend asking for $37 for some medicine they need from the pharmacy is the exact same as a stranger asking you.
*Of course, real life is complicated in many different ways. But, that all people have equal value is what I try to set as the standard, and then make exceptions or adjustments as need be. This seems to be more moral than setting the standard at only helping people you know well/like.
I think this one came the closest to identifying the underlying principle:
I think what she’s missing (as most children do) is an understanding of social currency. Nothing is ever free as long as people are involved. We must learn how to earn and save social currency, and when to spend it, because it’s not endless.
I’ve got a friend (in her 40s) who was raised, if you can call it that, in appallingly neglectful conditions. Like, DCFS and foster homes and group homes and living on the street kind of conditions. She is an asker, and to some degree, I can understand it. She raised herself in some pretty dodgy environments, and often being very direct and precocious would be a productive way of getting her needs met. She was in a position where she literally had nothing to lose by asking.
But fast forward 20 years, and her habit has begun to interfere with her relationships. People are beginning to avoid her because they don’t want to be asked for things, or money, or even information, every single time they interact with her. She’s exhausting to be around, and she’s exhausted her social currency. She isn’t giving enough back to make the friendships feel balanced.
Yeah, I think it - is - a good idea to help people. But there are limits. And standards.
I really like the explanation you gave here. It seems to describe the situation very well.
I grew up in the Sudan as a Foreign Service brat in the sixties. It was not at all unusual to have native kids ask you or your parents for gifts, money etc. But these were typically street kids I didn’t have that much face to face interaction with wealthier native Sudanese children so I’m not sure what their mores were with regard to asking for gifts from foreigners.
If she comes from impoverished Sudanese background the asking foreigners for gifts thing is pretty typical, but being in the US now you think your parents would have instructed her otherwise at this point.
her parents