Wheelchairs aren't people, they are equipment.

[butterfiles]

Now, rant aside, as a person with disability, I’ve seen a lot of positive results by taking initiative myself, initiating eye contact, speech, smile, etc. It goes a long way at easing the situation (a mostly imaginary situation). Them it sucks even worse when that doesn’t work and the other person is truly flabbergasted that you are not on your feet so better not look oof ouch I looked, NOW WHAT!

[Broomstick]

@russian_heel

There’s always stamps, knitting and fly fishing.

Thanks for the suggestion. I’m already a kick-ass knitter but I’ll look into the others.

Wow. That was so clever. You really showed ME.

So did Ambivalid but, of course, he’s a wheelchair user so you completely ignored what he said. Probably too busy admiring his wheels.

When it comes to skin color, Im color blind.

What a dumbass statement.

Unless you are, in fact, blind you do see skin color. It’s bullshit to deny it. And, just like gender or ability/disability, it’s a factor for a person. Again, you slam from one extreme to another, completely missing the middle.

People DO see each other’s skin color. There’s nothing wrong with acknowledging that difference in many situations. Saying “I don’t see color” means you can safely ignore continuing injustice in the world. It’s ignoring part of who the person is in society.

The thing isn’t to ignore skin color, it’s to put it in the proper context. At the cosmetics counter NOT considering it is insulting. If you’re talking about suitability for a job pushing paper it’s not relevant to ability.

Treating a disabled person like a person does NOT involving denying or ignoring the disability - if someone can’t climb stairs they can’t climb stairs, there needs to be some sort of workaround. If you’re knitting the ability to use or not use one’s legs is irrelevant.

The difference is that MOST people see skin color, file it under other identifying characteristics like height, gender, voice, age, etc. then proceed to interact with that person as one individual to another. With disability a lot of people lock onto the chair or whatever and can’t get past that. And NO, I do NOT think it’s “human nature” because children don’t do that. Honestly, under a certain age they just don’t, they’ll rush right up to someone in a wheelchair, grab a hand maybe, look them right in the eye and say “why are you in that chair?” or maybe “You have pretty hair” or something. They make eye contact, they engage the other person, they don’t ignore the person in the wheelchair. They have to be taught that by the adults that pull them away and say thing like “don’t bother that person” or “that’s a rude question to ask” and act like disability is a disease you can catch.

Thats a fact. When someone enters the room in a wheelchair, especially one not properly designed for ADA compliance, it sticks out like a sore thumb. Sorry Im not afraid to say what most people are thinking, and lying about how “they see the person, not the wheelchair”. THAT is such bullshit.

No one is saying no one sees the wheelchair - that is, in fact, the problem, people seeing nothing BUT the wheelchair. What they should be doing, though, is engaging the human being. I don’t accept that it’s “human nature” because so many people DO learn to speak with the person sitting in the wheelchair.

Come on show some balls and admit its normal to notice the wheelchair when someone comes into the room.

There’s a difference between “notice a feature” and “fixate on a feature”. Just as I note if someone is male or female, young or old, tall or short, white/black/Asian/whatever, I’ll notice if someone is in a wheelchair but I don’t define the person by one feature. I don’t assume I know all I need to know about a person because he’s a man or Asian or old, I don’t assume I know all I need to know about a person because he’s in a wheelchair. Sure, it tells me something about him, but there’s such an enormous range of reasons people use wheelchairs, there’s an enormous range of ability/disability among wheelchair users. It’s like saying you know someone’s politics because you know their skin color.

“Cripple”. Nice. Not too offensive. Oh let me guess, you were being facetious.

In this case, yes, but I don’t shy away from words that are appropriate just because someone finds them offensive. Sometimes being offensive is the only way to get the point across.

Im not pissed off at anybody. The OP was the one that seemed pissed off.

You’re passive-aggressive which, in my experience, is the sign of repressed anger and resentment.

Thats exactly what I do. I can only tell;you what is going on in my head subconsciously in the interaction. That doesn’t make me a bad person. How I handle the situation is what makes me the good person.

No, how you handle the situation makes you a rude person. You THINK you’re being polite and considerate but you’re not, and you’re ignoring people with direct experience on the topic who are telling you that you’re being a jerk, just as you have responded to comments made by me but ignored the exact same comments made by Ambivalid.

And in many ways a better person than you because I have the guts to tell the truth about human nature.

Yes, yes, I disagree with you therefore I’m a bad person… >yawn< Is that the best you’ve got?

On your way to Pluto, build a 40 billion mile long bridge and get over yourself.

No, dear, we’re sending YOU to Pluto. I’m staying here in Indiana for the foreseeable future.

I don’t have time to give you a sociology lesson. Buy a book and read up on it, take up wood carving, and stop being such a fucking self-righteous spaz.

Again, you’re having trouble - I’m not the spaz here, I’m in the able-bodied camp.

[saje]

@Broomstick

I stopped referring to people as “wheelchair bound” or “confined to a wheelchair” when someone with a spinal cord injury pointed out to me that, on the contrary, her wheelchair was liberating - without it, she’d be restricted to a dragging crawl to get about. Her chair enabled her to go places under her own power.

It was one of those ah-ha! moments you get in life. My viewpoint shifted and never went back. Instead of “oh, poor thing, stuck in a chair” is was “Thank Og we have wheelchairs so she’s not stuck in the house all day.”

Of course, not everyone who uses a wheelchair thinks about wheelchairs that way, as noted, disabled people are as varied in outlook as anyone else.

Quoting this because it’s fantastic and worth repeating.

[tapu]

@saje

Quoting this because it’s fantastic and worth repeating.

It’s a good example of understanding the other person’s perspective. Clearly an elusive people skill for some.

[saje]

Yep.

[GrumpyBunny]

[hijack]

@Broomstick

I have few outlets for hobbies these days. Tilting at windmills on line just happens to be fairly inexpensive and convenient.

I am **so **stealing this line.

[/hijack]

[Broomstick]

Enjoy.

[Ambivalid]

@Becky2844

Dude, you’re an asshole.

@Ambivalid

I honest-to-good did not have the slightest cue you disliked me Becky. None at all.

@Becky2844

I didn’t say I don’t like you.

Ahh, I see. You really didn’t say you didn’t like me. You just called me an asshole. I apologize for accusing you of something you did not say.

@Broomstick

Why is Ambivalid the one who has to change?

Seriously - what you’re saying is something like “You’re angry because other people treat you like a defective, incompetent human being but you’ll be happier if you just accept that’s how you’ll always be treated, learn to love condescension.”

How dare the disabled cause discomfort among the clueless merely by asking to be treated as an adult! Don’t rock the boat, don’t protest, don’t complain.

Honestly, if other people had taken that route we’d still be buying and selling people and women would still be treated as perpetual children under the law.

I missed a few posts the first time around, including this one. But this is a brilliant post. It basically describes the essence of the oppression of the disabled and it’s what I live and work to eliminate.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Huh. If this were the sense in which she contacted you, then yeah, I agree. But it doesn’t sound to me like it was: it sounds like she wanted to show your picture to her disabled cousin, who presumably is also in a wheelchair. And I’m not seeing that as a particularly awful request.

Ambivalid, is what monstro saying what the problem was? That is, would you have been fine if she’d been writing to you to ask if she could show your picture to her cousin because she liked your haircut and thought it’d look good on him?

If so, I apologize. But that’s not at all what I got from your post: sounded to me like the problem was making a friendly, nonromantic contact on a dating site.

I know this is rehashed material I just wanted to be crystal clear (I’m understanding the importance of extreme clarity now more than ever ;). She messaged me, with the message beginning with telling me how great and awesome my body was. She then said I was such an inspiration and to keep up the great work. Then she goes on to ask me if she could use my pictures as motivation for her disabled cousin, who was somewhat new to his chair.

Context is of utmost importance here. A very attractive girl, on a dating site, messages me and tells me how good I look. Does that sound like a platonic opening?! Fuck no, it doesn’t. Then she goes on with the inspiration and pictures and cousin bs. If this had occurred on ANY other non-romantic/sexual venue, such as facebook or some sort of social media or whatever, it would have been a completely ok and appropriate thing to say. But NOT ON A FUCKING DATING SITE.

@monstro

I think the key word is “inspiration.” I don’t think anyone wants to hear that they’re an inspiration on a dating website.

If I’ve already responded to this, forgive me. I’m getting a bit lost in all these replies :p. I just want to say, this is so “duh, of course” that I’m beginning to think that there isn’t much experience with online dating with many of the SD. Maybe I’m wrong tho. It’s just an impression.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

If she were saying he was an inspiration to her, yeah, that’d be 100% obnoxious, and I’d get it. But she was talking about using his picture as an inspiration for her disabled cousin. That doesn’t sound nearly as bad to me–although I’m open to an explanation for why it is.

@monstro

Pretty much all racial minorities deal with something like this. People are always confusing me with the other black chick who works on the floor, even though we look absolutely nothing alike and have personalities that couldn’t be any more different. Sometimes I’ll be talking to someone and they will refer to that other woman by my name. I used to correct them, but I don’t any more because it just makes them embarrassed.

But I can’t get too mad, because I do the same thing with the Chinese ladies that work on the floor below mine.

If there’s a universal minority experience, it’s this one.

@Broomstick

I stopped referring to people as “wheelchair bound” or “confined to a wheelchair” when someone with a spinal cord injury pointed out to me that, on the contrary, her wheelchair was liberating - without it, she’d be restricted to a dragging crawl to get about. Her chair enabled her to go places under her own power.

It was one of those ah-ha! moments you get in life. My viewpoint shifted and never went back. Instead of “oh, poor thing, stuck in a chair” is was “Thank Og we have wheelchairs so she’s not stuck in the house all day.”

Of course, not everyone who uses a wheelchair thinks about wheelchairs that way, as noted, disabled people are as varied in outlook as anyone else.

@Dangerosa

I’m sorry about this.

I put up with the same thing all the time from men who think that as a woman, I can’t open my own damn door. They rush ahead like if I get to the door and they aren’t there to open it, I’m going to walk right into it. I’m not sure what they think happens when a woman gets to a door and there is no man around.

I know there are people who like having doors opened for them - and it seems polite to me that the person who gets their first opens the door and doesn’t let it slam in the face of the person behind them. And its always nice to get the door for someone with their hands full. But there is no reason to me that we need to divide this by gender lines.

I don’t make a deal out of it - well I do, but good naturedly. Holding the door open for me, they can’t rush to the SECOND door that is usually there. So I open that with a flourish and usher them through with a smile. Once in a while I get some asshole who insists on taking THAT door from me so I can go through first. I leave and go through a different door. If they can’t get the point that there is a difference between polite and patronizing that I’m trying to good naturedly illustrate, I’m neither going to explain it, nor have them “explain” it to me.

(And I’m willing to bet that you get no end of help with doors - some of which is truly helpful - and some of which is “there is a handicapped button right there, I CAN push the button.”)

@tapu

Say yes, yes I do. I need $1000.

@dropzone

So I’m not supposed to open doors for people in wheelchairs because that belittles them? Tomorrow I’ll tell my wife, “You’re on your own, honey. It’s for the good of your self-esteem. No, no, I know what a pain in the ass it is, but someday you’ll thank me.”

@russian_heel

You used the word “defect”, I never used it.

If you read my comment, I said the level of discomfort is not the same as for the person in the wheelchair. When it comes to “discomfort” Im referring to the eggshells we apparently have to walk around some people with disabilities because of the tight rope of being empathetic without being pitying towards the person.

Great. More rules for us all to remember.

For course it is. And to compare trying to compare the needs of a wheelchair user to having an interaction with a member of the opposite sex or another race is an absolutely ridiculous comparison.

Oh for gods sakes. So you AGREE Athen that for many wheelchair users, it takes hard work and effort to learn how to do this, so a congratulations to anyone who finds ways to conquer their disability IS in order. Excuse me for admiring their hard work and spirit.

Stupid is as Stupid does.

@dropzone

Okay, that’s a good point, Ambi. And more grist for my deeply held conviction that most people are morons. I usually expect it and roll my eyes accordingly, but that one, versus the hygienist, is the one that would have set me off. Publicly.

@russian_heel

Good Lord, your exhausting. What NOW?

Where did I patronize the disabled here?

Ergo if you have a defect, then you are defective. Im sure you know what a dictionary is look it up.

Well, Im glad we can now acknowledge that fact that MANY people see the wheelchair immediately, and focus on that. Thats not because they are bad people, or theres something wrong with the person in the wheelchair: its human nature and the sooner we can get that out of the way, the further ahead we can move in creating positive interaction between those that use wheelchairs and those that don’t.

Well, aren’t YOU so much better and more special than many of us.

Not a good comparison. I have no qualms about offending an able bodied person for whatever reason; someone in a wheelchair? Of course I want to go the extra mile to make them not feel uncomfortable.

I never said that can’t happen. But I think it human nature to notice the wheelchair FIRST, then hopefully focus on the person once the parameters of the interaction have been set. And if a relationship develops, Im sure the wheelchair becomes less and less part of the interaction.

Robot Arm is just putting words in my mouth, because I would have reacted the same way even if the person in the wheelchair was rude. Now, maybe later I would have told my wife, “Gee I tried to help out a person in a wheelchair, and they were kind of a dick back to me.” and the next time, it would be in the back of my mind, “Wow. If I offer this person some help, are they going to tear my head off?”. Courtesy is a two way street.

@russian_heel

There’s always stamps, knitting and fly fishing.

Im still waiting for one example. It’s a simple question.

Wow. That was so clever. You really showed ME.

When it comes to skin color, Im color blind. Thats a fact. When someone enters the room in a wheelchair, especially one not properly designed for ADA compliance, it sticks out like a sore thumb. Sorry Im not afraid to say what most people are thinking, and lying about how “they see the person, not the wheelchair”. THAT is such bullshit.

Oh yes you are. I shall make it my goal to strive to be as wonderful and perfect as you are. And Im SUUUUURE your not lying about “seeing the person, not the wheelchair”. Come on show some balls and admit its normal to notice the wheelchair when someone comes into the room.

“Cripple”. Nice. Not too offensive. Oh let me guess, you were being facetious.

Im not pissed off at anybody. The OP was the one that seemed pissed off.

Thats exactly what I do. I can only tell;you what is going on in my head subconsciously in the interaction. That doesn’t make me a bad person. How I handle the situation is what makes me the good person. And in many ways a better person than you because I have the guts to tell the truth about human nature.

On your way to Pluto, build a 40 billion mile long bridge and get over yourself.

I don’t have time to give you a sociology lesson. Buy a book and read up on it, take up wood carving, and stop being such a fucking self-righteous spaz.

[Ambivalid]

@Becky2844

Dude, you’re an asshole.

@Ambivalid

I honest-to-good did not have the slightest cue you disliked me Becky. None at all.

@Becky2844

I didn’t say I don’t like you.

Ahh, I see. You really didn’t say you didn’t like me. You just called me an asshole. I apologize for accusing you of something you did not say.

@Broomstick

Why is Ambivalid the one who has to change?

Seriously - what you’re saying is something like “You’re angry because other people treat you like a defective, incompetent human being but you’ll be happier if you just accept that’s how you’ll always be treated, learn to love condescension.”

How dare the disabled cause discomfort among the clueless merely by asking to be treated as an adult! Don’t rock the boat, don’t protest, don’t complain.

Honestly, if other people had taken that route we’d still be buying and selling people and women would still be treated as perpetual children under the law.

I missed a few posts the first time around, including this one. But this is a brilliant post. It basically describes the essence of the oppression of the disabled and it’s what I live and work to eliminate.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Huh. If this were the sense in which she contacted you, then yeah, I agree. But it doesn’t sound to me like it was: it sounds like she wanted to show your picture to her disabled cousin, who presumably is also in a wheelchair. And I’m not seeing that as a particularly awful request.

Ambivalid, is what monstro saying what the problem was? That is, would you have been fine if she’d been writing to you to ask if she could show your picture to her cousin because she liked your haircut and thought it’d look good on him?

If so, I apologize. But that’s not at all what I got from your post: sounded to me like the problem was making a friendly, nonromantic contact on a dating site.

I know this is rehashed material I just wanted to be crystal clear (I’m understanding the importance of extreme clarity now more than ever ;). She messaged me, with the message beginning with telling me how great and awesome my body was. She then said I was such an inspiration and to keep up the great work. Then she goes on to ask me if she could use my pictures as motivation for her disabled cousin, who was somewhat new to his chair.

Context is of utmost importance here. A very attractive girl, on a dating site, messages me and tells me how good I look. Does that sound like a platonic opening?! Fuck no, it doesn’t. Then she goes on with the inspiration and pictures and cousin bs. If this had occurred on ANY other non-romantic/sexual venue, such as facebook or some sort of social media or whatever, it would have been a completely ok and appropriate thing to say. But NOT ON A FUCKING DATING SITE.

@monstro

I think the key word is “inspiration.” I don’t think anyone wants to hear that they’re an inspiration on a dating website.

If I’ve already responded to this, forgive me. I’m getting a bit lost in all these replies :p. I just want to say, this is so “duh, of course” that I’m beginning to think that there isn’t much experience with online dating with many of the SD. Maybe I’m wrong tho. It’s just an impression.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

If she were saying he was an inspiration to her, yeah, that’d be 100% obnoxious, and I’d get it. But she was talking about using his picture as an inspiration for her disabled cousin. That doesn’t sound nearly as bad to me–although I’m open to an explanation for why it is.

That is exactly what she was saying.

@monstro

Pretty much all racial minorities deal with something like this. People are always confusing me with the other black chick who works on the floor, even though we look absolutely nothing alike and have personalities that couldn’t be any more different. Sometimes I’ll be talking to someone and they will refer to that other woman by my name. I used to correct them, but I don’t any more because it just makes them embarrassed.

But I can’t get too mad, because I do the same thing with the Chinese ladies that work on the floor below mine.

If there’s a universal minority experience, it’s this one.

Yeah, that’s got to be wearing. But have you ever been mistaken for a white woman?

@Broomstick

I stopped referring to people as “wheelchair bound” or “confined to a wheelchair” when someone with a spinal cord injury pointed out to me that, on the contrary, her wheelchair was liberating - without it, she’d be restricted to a dragging crawl to get about. Her chair enabled her to go places under her own power.

It was one of those ah-ha! moments you get in life. My viewpoint shifted and never went back. Instead of “oh, poor thing, stuck in a chair” is was “Thank Og we have wheelchairs so she’s not stuck in the house all day.”

Of course, not everyone who uses a wheelchair thinks about wheelchairs that way, as noted, disabled people are as varied in outlook as anyone else.

Yeah, it’s why when someone says “Oh you must hate being in that thing”, I actually say, “no, I really love my chair. What I don’t like is my disability”. Or when another disabled person says “I hate this wheelchair so much”, they are projecting their anger and hatred for their disability onto the equipment that allows them to live with that disability.

@Dangerosa

I Holding the door open for me, they can’t rush to the SECOND door that is usually there.

Ha! Oh, yes they can. Yes they can.

@tapu

Say yes, yes I do. I need $1000.

“My Medicaid won’t pay for my catheters so I’m forced to pee all over myself.” I need $200 immediately." God bless your kind soul.

@dropzone

So I’m not supposed to open doors for people in wheelchairs because that belittles them?

You aren’t supposed to open doors for people who tell you they don’t want/need you to open that door for them; ability of that person is irrelevant. You fucking moron.

@russian_heel

If you read my comment, I said the level of discomfort is not the same** as for the person in the wheelchair**.

And this is another thing that makes no sense to me. Why the hell would I be uncomfortable around other people? Do you think I have no experience with you “normies” and I just don’t know how to respond and it just makes me uncomfortable?? This is ME, it’s my life, it’s the person I am 24/7, 365. The ONLY thing that could possibly make me uncomfortable is when someone is around me and they act like they are near some half man/half machine alien that they’ve never even knew existed before. And that doesn’t even make me uncomfortable. It just makes me tired, exhausted, mentally and spiritually. I also spent more years as an able bodied person than I have as a wheelchair user. So this comment really is out there.

@dropzone

Okay, that’s a good point, Ambi. And more grist for my deeply held conviction that most people are morons. I usually expect it and roll my eyes accordingly, but that one, versus the hygienist, is the one that would have set me off. Publicly.

I really pay no attention to anything you say at this point, so post away.

@russian_heel

I have no qualms about offending an able bodied person for whatever reason;** someone in a wheelchair? Of course I want to go the extra mile to make them not feel uncomfortable.**

In all seriousness, snark and attitude free, can I ask you why you do this? Do you think the feelings of a wheelchair user are somehow more fragile and delicate than that of an able-bodied person? If so, why? And what many people don’t understand is that it’s that very act of going the extra mile not to hurt our delicate feelings that is much of the source of our sense of ostracization from the rest of the world. I truly don’t understand this mentality and I would like to understand it. I would hope an anonymous discussion here could provide some answers.
[/QUOTE]

[Ambivalid]

Sorry for the double-ish post. I accidently hit send on that first one before I was finished. Can a mod delete that first post? Or is that a no no?

[russian_heel]

So did Ambivalid but, of course, he’s a wheelchair user so you completely ignored what he said. Probably too busy admiring his wheels.

[quote]
You THINK you’re being polite and considerate but you’re not, and you’re ignoring people with direct experience on the topic who are telling you that you’re being a jerk, just as you have responded to comments made by me but ignored the exact same comments made by Ambivalid.
[/quote
I’ll address and respond to anyone on this Message Board when and as I please, if I choose to do so in the first place. That said, Id love to engage Ambivalid but I’ve been too busy with your asshattery for what seems like an eternity here. So maybe, if you just like, shut the fuck up for a moment, I’ll get a spare second to read his posts. Its Ambivalids thread, after all.

What a dumbass statement.

Unless you are, in fact, blind you do see skin color. It’s bullshit to deny it. And, just like gender or ability/disability, it’s a factor for a person. Again, you slam from one extreme to another, completely missing the middle.

People DO see each other’s skin color. There’s nothing wrong with acknowledging that difference in many situations. Saying “I don’t see color” means you can safely ignore continuing injustice in the world. It’s ignoring part of who the person is in society.

The thing isn’t to ignore skin color, it’s to put it in the proper context. At the cosmetics counter NOT considering it is insulting. If you’re talking about suitability for a job pushing paper it’s not relevant to ability.

Treating a disabled person like a person does NOT involving denying or ignoring the disability - if someone can’t climb stairs they can’t climb stairs, there needs to be some sort of workaround. If you’re knitting the ability to use or not use one’s legs is irrelevant.

Well, what the fuck, this is what I’ve been saying all along. I cant win with you.

With disability a lot of people lock onto the chair or whatever and can’t get past that.

Well, Im not one of those people—despite your rhetoric, I do get past it, quick, but again, for the 500th fucking time, am not afraid to admit its the first thing I see first. Theres a big difference between an Asian walking in to an elevator, anad a handicapped person clunking around into an elevator with their wheelchair.

And NO, I do NOT think it’s “human nature” because children don’t do that. Honestly, under a certain age they just don’t, they’ll rush right up to someone in a wheelchair, grab a hand maybe, look them right in the eye and say “why are you in that chair?” or maybe “You have pretty hair” or something. They make eye contact, they engage the other person, they don’t ignore the person in the wheelchair. They have to be taught that by the adults that pull them away and say thing like “don’t bother that person” or “that’s a rude question to ask” and act like disability is a disease you can catch.

OH MY GOD. So now its wrong to teach your children to NOT go up and ask someone in a wheelchair awkward questions. AGAIN, how can anyone win with you and your strict set of rules as to what is an what is not offensive to a handicapped person?

No one is saying no one sees the wheelchair - that is, in fact, the problem, people seeing nothing BUT the wheelchair. What they should be doing, though, is engaging the human being. I don’t accept that it’s “human nature” because so many people DO learn to speak with the person sitting in the wheelchair.

SO, finally you admit that its human nature to notice the wheelchair. It took a while, but Im glad I punched that out of you.

There’s a difference between “notice a feature” and “fixate on a feature”. Just as I note if someone is male or female, young or old, tall or short, white/black/Asian/whatever, I’ll notice if someone is in a wheelchair but I don’t define the person by one feature. I don’t assume I know all I need to know about a person because he’s a man or Asian or old, I don’t assume I know all I need to know about a person because he’s in a wheelchair. Sure, it tells me something about him, but there’s such an enormous range of reasons people use wheelchairs, there’s an enormous range of ability/disability among wheelchair users. It’s like saying you know someone’s politics because you know their skin color.

See this is where I think we have a miscommunication. All Im saying is initial reaction by most people is to notice the wheelchair, and then get comfortable with the environment, and then slowly, that wheelchair disappears. Do some people get fixated on it, and can’t handle thew situation? Sure they do. That might not make them bad people. And if as a result they make or say or do well meaning but stupid things, its not that they are bad people. Thats all I am saying here.

You’re passive-aggressive which, in my experience, is the sign of repressed anger and resentment.

Why on Gods Green Earth would I resent a person in a wheelchair? I appreciate the offer of a free psychological analysis, but Im a perfectly happy person.

Yes, yes, I disagree with you therefore I’m a bad person… >yawn< Is that the best you’ve got?

Trust me I’m bored with you too.

No, dear, we’re sending YOU to Pluto. I’m staying here in Indiana for the foreseeable future.

If half there human race were as insufferable as you, I’d volunteer to fly there tomorrow.

Again, you’re having trouble - I’m not the spaz here, I’m in the able-bodied camp.

So you are neither a “spam” or a “cripple”.

And IM the one who is demanding to people who use wheelchairs.

Get lost.

[russian_heel]

So did Ambivalid but, of course, he’s a wheelchair user so you completely ignored what he said. Probably too busy admiring his wheels.

Oh, let me guess, your on the how did you put it? “cripple” Ambivalids side so you get to make all the offensive jokes about people in wheelchairs, yet IM the demeaning one.

You THINK you’re being polite and considerate but you’re not, and you’re ignoring people with direct experience on the topic who are telling you that you’re being a jerk, just as you have responded to comments made by me but ignored the exact same comments made by Ambivalid.

I’ll address and respond to anyone on this Message Board when and as I please, if I choose to do so in the first place. That said, Id love to engage Ambivalid but I’ve been too busy with your asshattery for what seems like an eternity here. So maybe, if you just like, shut the fuck up for a moment, I’ll get a spare second to read his posts. Its Ambivalids thread, after all.

What a dumbass statement.

Unless you are, in fact, blind you do see skin color. It’s bullshit to deny it. And, just like gender or ability/disability, it’s a factor for a person. Again, you slam from one extreme to another, completely missing the middle.

People DO see each other’s skin color. There’s nothing wrong with acknowledging that difference in many situations. Saying “I don’t see color” means you can safely ignore continuing injustice in the world. It’s ignoring part of who the person is in society.

The thing isn’t to ignore skin color, it’s to put it in the proper context. At the cosmetics counter NOT considering it is insulting. If you’re talking about suitability for a job pushing paper it’s not relevant to ability.

Treating a disabled person like a person does NOT involving denying or ignoring the disability - if someone can’t climb stairs they can’t climb stairs, there needs to be some sort of workaround. If you’re knitting the ability to use or not use one’s legs is irrelevant.

Well, what the fuck, this is what I’ve been saying all along. I cant win with you.

With disability a lot of people lock onto the chair or whatever and can’t get past that.

Well, Im not one of those people—despite your rhetoric, I do get past it, quick, but again, for the 500th fucking time, am not afraid to admit its the first thing I see. Theres a big difference between an Asian walking in to an elevator, and a handicapped person clunking around into an elevator with their wheelchair.

And NO, I do NOT think it’s “human nature” because children don’t do that. Honestly, under a certain age they just don’t, they’ll rush right up to someone in a wheelchair, grab a hand maybe, look them right in the eye and say “why are you in that chair?” or maybe “You have pretty hair” or something. They make eye contact, they engage the other person, they don’t ignore the person in the wheelchair. They have to be taught that by the adults that pull them away and say thing like “don’t bother that person” or “that’s a rude question to ask” and act like disability is a disease you can catch.

OH MY GOD. So now its wrong to teach your children to NOT go up and ask someone in a wheelchair awkward questions. AGAIN, how can anyone win with you and your strict set of rules as to what is an what is not offensive to a handicapped person?

No one is saying no one sees the wheelchair - that is, in fact, the problem, people seeing nothing BUT the wheelchair. What they should be doing, though, is engaging the human being. I don’t accept that it’s “human nature” because so many people DO learn to speak with the person sitting in the wheelchair.

SO, finally you admit that its human nature to notice the wheelchair. It took a while, but Im glad I punched that out of you.

There’s a difference between “notice a feature” and “fixate on a feature”. Just as I note if someone is male or female, young or old, tall or short, white/black/Asian/whatever, I’ll notice if someone is in a wheelchair but I don’t define the person by one feature. I don’t assume I know all I need to know about a person because he’s a man or Asian or old, I don’t assume I know all I need to know about a person because he’s in a wheelchair. Sure, it tells me something about him, but there’s such an enormous range of reasons people use wheelchairs, there’s an enormous range of ability/disability among wheelchair users. It’s like saying you know someone’s politics because you know their skin color.

See this is where I think we have a miscommunication. All Im saying is initial reaction by most people is to notice the wheelchair, and then get comfortable with the environment, and then slowly, that wheelchair disappears. Do some people get fixated on it, and can’t handle the situation? Sure they do. That might not make them bad people. And if as a result they make or say or do well meaning but stupid things, its not that they are bad people. Thats all I am saying here. Not everyone can be as perfect as you in every social situation.

You’re passive-aggressive which, in my experience, is the sign of repressed anger and resentment.

Why on Gods Green Earth would I resent a person in a wheelchair? I appreciate the offer of a free psychological analysis, but Im a perfectly happy person.

Yes, yes, I disagree with you therefore I’m a bad person… >yawn< Is that the best you’ve got?

Trust me I’m bored with you too.

No, dear, we’re sending YOU to Pluto. I’m staying here in Indiana for the foreseeable future.

If half there human race were as insufferable as you, I’d volunteer to fly there tomorrow.

Again, you’re having trouble - I’m not the spaz here, I’m in the able-bodied camp.

So you are neither a “spaz” or a “cripple”.

And IM the one who is demeaning to people who use wheelchairs.

You may be able-bodied, but have proven here you are not able-minded.

Get lost. I’ve had enough of you.

[butterfiles]

Others might disagree, but I like it when children are free to ask questions. I think it’s a very healthy response. I don’t find it awkward at all, and I don’t think the children do either unless they pick that up from the adults in the environment.

[Ambivalid]

russian heel, why are you ignoring all of my direct questions and attempts at addressing some of the things you’ve said?

[Ambivalid]

@butterfiles

Others might disagree, but I like it when children are free to ask questions. I think it’s a very healthy response. I don’t find it awkward at all, and I don’t think the children do either unless they pick that up from the adults in the environment.

Completely agree, 100%.

[Helena330]

Damn, my scrolling finger has a cramp!

[Miller]

@Ambivalid

Sorry for the double-ish post. I accidently hit send on that first one before I was finished. Can a mod delete that first post? Or is that a no no?

No problem.

[Broomstick]

@russian_heel

Oh, let me guess, your on the how did you put it? “cripple” Ambivalids side so you get to make all the offensive jokes about people in wheelchairs, yet IM the demeaning one.

If Ambivalid is offended, demeaned, or in any way feels my posts are objectionable he is perfectly capable of telling me so directly. He has done so in the past. Ditto for any of our other disabled members.

And, by the way, you haven’t a clue about “offensive” disability humor (known in my household as “gimp humor”) if you think anything I’ve said here falls into that category. If you aren’t clear on the concept I suggest John Callahan’s work as a decent reference.

That said, Id love to engage Ambivalid but I’ve been too busy with your asshattery for what seems like an eternity here. So maybe, if you just like, shut the fuck up for a moment, I’ll get a spare second to read his posts. Its Ambivalids thread, after all.

Oh, please - what a bullshit excuse. No one is forcing to address or not address a post, it’s your choice. I think which ones you are and are not responding to is enlightening.

Well, what the fuck, this is what I’ve been saying all along. I cant win with you.

Likely not, but that’s because your assumptions are flawed and your position without foundation. It’s yet another indication you are standing in the wrong place.

OH MY GOD. So now its wrong to teach your children to NOT go up and ask someone in a wheelchair awkward questions. AGAIN, how can anyone win with you and your strict set of rules as to what is an what is not offensive to a handicapped person?

Kids ask questions. It’s what they DO. It’s normal. It’s how they learn about the world.

Anyhow - do note how many disabled folks here chimed in with that they didn’t mind kids asking questions. What makes it “awkward” is the reaction of the able-bodied, who seem to still have this notion we should never, ever mention the word “wheelchair” in front of someone in one.

Oh, wait - based on your actions in this thread so far you don’t read/respond to posts by disabled people. OK, let’s me relay that several of them have stated they don’t mind such questions.

SO, finally you admit that its human nature to notice the wheelchair. It took a while, but Im glad I punched that out of you.

The difference is that with you it’s the major defining characteristic and with me I just log it in with many other traits.

See this is where I think we have a miscommunication. All Im saying is initial reaction by most people is to notice the wheelchair, and then get comfortable with the environment, and then slowly, that wheelchair disappears.

Slowly? Slowly? Honest to god, what’s to get over here?

I get this at work a lot, because I work in the health area of the store and between that and the pharmacy we get a lot of disabled people in my area. See person in wheelchair. Go up to them, make eye contact, “Hello, how are you? If you need any help let me know. Have a good day.” Holy fuck, what’s hard about that? The saddest thing is how fucking surprised and even grateful so many of them are just to be treated like every one else in my area. That’s the exact same greeting I use for every customer. What the hell do you need to get “comfortable” about?

Why on Gods Green Earth would I resent a person in a wheelchair? I appreciate the offer of a free psychological analysis, but Im a perfectly happy person.

Please… list is legion why the able-bodied resent the disabled. Deaf people talk too loud (I’m still chuckling over the lady who came into the store shouting I NEED NEW BATTERIES FOR MY HEARING AIDS. WHERE ARE THE HEARING AID BATTERIES?) and make noises. Blind people crash into things and get in the way. Wheelchairs block the aisles. That person shouldn’t have a handicap parking plate, they can walk! How come she gets to park so close to the door and I don’t? “Those” people make me uncomfortable, they talk funny, they walk funny, maybe they smell, maybe they’re retarded… Yeah, there are a LOT of reasons the able-bodied don’t like/resent/even fear the disabled.

Trust me I’m bored with you too.

Well… to be honest, no, I’m not, just unimpressed by that one return. I haven’t had an opportunity to roast someone in the Pit in quite awhile.

If half there human race were as insufferable as you, I’d volunteer to fly there tomorrow.

I’ll see what I can do to arrange that.

So you are neither a “spaz” or a “cripple”.

And IM the one who is demeaning to people who use wheelchairs.

If I’m being demeaning to the disabled the disabled here are perfectly capable of taking me to task. Oddly enough, none of them have. Since they’re the best judge of who is or isn’t demeaning them I’ll let their actions or lack of them speak for me.

Get lost. I’ve had enough of you.

If you are not moderator you have no power to get rid of me. Tough shit. I’m here. Pretty damn weak reply, you’re losing the argument. But, please, continue… as I said, I have few outlets for hobbies these days and this week you’re a designated windmill.

[dropzone]

@Ambivalid

I really pay no attention to anything you say at this point, so post away.

So coming around to your way of thinking is chopped liver? I apologize deeply for making an effort to see the issue through your eyes and change my thinking accordingly. In the future I will disagree with everything you say purely out of spite, without bothering to pay any attention to what you say. :mad:

And yes, my wife is doing well after her surgery this morning, though she still thinks your hygienist is a dirty old lady who wanted to grope you. Thanks for asking.

[Ambivalid]

@dropzone

So coming around to your way of thinking is chopped liver? I apologize deeply for making an effort to see the issue through your eyes and change my thinking accordingly. In the future I will disagree with everything you say purely out of spite, without bothering to pay any attention to what you say. :mad:

And yes, my wife is doing well after her surgery this morning, though she still thinks your hygienist is a dirty old lady who wanted to grope you. Thanks for asking.

You’ve shown yourself to be a profoundly ignorant asshole, I don’t believe you when you say you’ve “come around to my way of thinking”. Not at all. I think you’re an ignorant shit who reads (and sees) what he wants instead of what is there.