I suppose then we disagree. If I see a guy call another guy a cocksucker, to me it equates to calling him a fag. If someone calls me a cocksucker, I make the same equation. The intent in both cases is to be insulting and offensive. How you can see it otherwise escapes me.
Esprix
Why is it taken to mean that you are an extremely bad individual? Because the connotations of the word “cocksucker” are homosexual, therefore ‘bad’; it continues (whether its user intended this or not) the equation of homosexuality as a negative lifestyle choice. The use of language does have a larger effect on society and what is/isn’t considered acceptable, larger than one specific usage. Whether or not the OP intended to be insulting to homosexuals (which I don’t think he was) by using a perjorative term which implicitly equates homosexuality to negative behaviour, his and others’ continued use of said-term as an acceptable insult only serves, in its own small way, to continuing prejudice against homosexuality. Small steps…
Crap. Grammar, much?
Esprix, I’ve seen you use the term “bastard” many times on this board. following your logic, this means bastard=bad, nasty person=person born out of wedlock. Somehow though, I don’t think that’s what you mean when you use it.
This just goes to show how different connotations can be from one person to the next. I have called my SO a “whore” to her face in a derogatory sense, but would never, ever, dream of telling her to “fuck off.” To me, and to her, “fuck off” is much worse than “whore.”
I always try my best, and most of the time succeed, in not taking offense to something that is said by a person I know very little about. If I feel that I must make an assumption about a person’s intent, I attempt to give them the benefit of the doubt, and usually laugh it off. When I’ve told people this in the past, they usually tell me that it lets the other person know that it is acceptable to use the insult, and that they will only use it more in the future. But in my experience, people usually realize that the word has no effect on me, and they never say it to me again.
Of course, YMMV, and I know these words have massive potential to hurt. And I would never accuse anyone of overreacting to such use.
We must not hang out with the same type of people.
:eek: um, I mean…
Cite, please?
errr…nevermind.
::APPLAUSE:: Finally, someone comes up with an apt analogy in defense of the OP.
I think you’re missing the meaning behind the term “cocksucker.” Look at the other insults you listed: motherfucker, asshole, dork. Like cocksucker, none of these are literal insults, they’re metaphorical. When you call someone a motherfucker, you are saying they are so disagreeable, they are as disagreeable as someone who has sex with their mother. When you call someone an asshole, you are saying they are as unpleasant as a rectum. When you call someone a cocksucker, you are saying they are in some way equivalent with a homosexual. Even if you know the guy in question has never had a dick in his mouth, he’s just as bad as someone who has.
However, I don’t agree that the origins of this term necessarily refer to gays. I think it’s just as likely that it originally meant something more like, “You suck cock, just like a woman.” The insult not being the implication that the recipient is gay, but that he is female. In other words, my personal WAG is that this insult has its roots not in homophobia, but in misogyny. Not that that makes it a whole lot better.
Uh, sure. Also, I never hear anything said that’s offensive towards me. :rolleyes:
Marc
Wow, never thought of it as insulting to women as well. How degrading.
And who actually uses the term “bastard” to mean “born out of wedlock” anymore? (Does it more aptly correspond to “yo momma?” I know I’d knock the block of anyone who’d say that to me.)
Plus I daresay “cocksucker” is just a smidge more visceral.
Esprix
My input, FWIW: I spend a lot of time around a fairly immature group of people (Magic: The Gathering players). Relatively often, they describe something that happened as “gay”. They clearly aren’t saying that it was, literally, homosexual… rather, that it was bad/lame. Nonetheless, this sets off my homophobia alarm, and I (at least some of the time) call them on it.
If I heard someone use the phrase “cocksucker” in a similar situation, it would never occur to me that this was in any way homophobic.
Obviously, there’s a continuum. The word “cocksucker” might have homosexual implications on some level or in some contexts, but is usually used in way that is extremely disassociated from them, whereas “gay” or “faggot” are much less disassociated, and “homosexual man who has homosexual sex with other men” is, AFAIK, never used to mean anything other than what it sounds like.
(Is anyone else channeling Bull Durham?
CRASH It was a cocksucking call!
UMPIRE Did you call me a cocksucker?
CRASH No! I said It was a cock-sucking call and you can’t run me for that!
UMPIRE You missed the tag!
CRASH You spit on me!
…
UMPIRE You’re close, Crash, you want me to run you? I’ll run you!
CRASH You want me to call you a cocksucker?!
UMPIRE Try it! Go ahead. Call me a cocksucker!
CRASH Beg me!
UMPIRE Call me a cocksucker and you’re outta here!
CRASH Beg me again!
UMPIRE Call me a cocksucker and you’re outta here!
CRASH You’re a cocksucker!
UMPIRE You’re outta here!
Nothing in that scene ever struck me as homophobic…)
I am truly agog that people aren’t seeing this. I’m equally agog that people don’t associate calling something that is bad “gay” and not seeing that a person who identifies as gay would see that as incredibly offensive.
YMMV, it would seem.
Esprix
So should we “reclaim the language” and make it so that bastard is only used in reference to people that are born out of wedlock? It seems like the same argument to me, only that there is no one that is a real bastard that is claiming to be offended. No one that I know uses “cocksucker” to mean its literal meaning, everyone uses it to mean jerk or asshole.
You see, this is the problem with arguements like this. A valid point was raised and instead of admitting that he was either wrong about using bastard in a derogatory sense, or that cocksucker isn’t as bad as he says it is, he decides that bastard just aint that bad and presses on with his critique of cocksucker. Whatever suits your cause right Esprix? :rolleyes:
FWIW I hear the word “bastard” used to describe children who were born to single moms, and to describe a half-assed attempt at something, than I have ever heard “cocksucker” used to describe gays. I just don’t see how being gay allows you to claim right to words that are not “gay-only”. Once a gay person says “Hey, you are talking about me when you say that!” then all of a sudden the word is off limits.
Ah, yes - gleefully continuing to insult people because they say they’re insulted. That’s mighty white of ya. :rolleyes:
If a child born out of wedlock tells me he or she is offended* by the use of the word “bastard,” guess what? I’ll stop using it. “PC,” to me, means “plain courtesy.” Why would I intentionally insult someone (unless, of course, I meant to - and the whole point is if you use the act of fellatio as an insult, it insults those who actually perform that act, duh, mothers and wives included)? And if I use “bastard” in another context or to another person and someone says they are offended by hearing it or reading it, guess what? I’ll apologize.
What’s so hard to grasp about that?
Esprix
[sub]* And I’ve no doubt the next ten posts will read along the lines of, “I’m an illegitimate child and I’m offended.” Truly, your wit is astouding and all-reaching - I am awed by your cleverness. :rolleyes: [/sub]
You are right Esprix.
I’m not a fan of censoring what I say, but I’m also not in the business of hurting people’s feelings.
So THAT is the difference between “cocksucker” and “bastard.” Words aren’t inherently evil past intent, but if someone is aware that they will hurt, they are responsible for what they say.
It seems that Stinkpalm didn’t realize that he was offending anyone with what he was saying, other than the two meanies that killed that boy. I think BooBoo316 had it right when he surmised that Stink was continuing this just because he was being defensive about the accusations that flew his way. In the original thread, this post:
is amiable enough to indicate that he really didn’t mean to offend anyone.
Bingo, 'sprix. Fact is, there aren’t any nonmarital children complaining about the use of the epithet “bastard.” It is also rather important to note that nonmarital children aren’t exactly a marginalized group subject to widespread bigotry and hatred by twits like the OP. Combine those two things, and I think you’ve got a pretty good case that continued use of epithets like “cocksucker,” “fuck them up their asses,” and “suck my dick” indicates some distasteful combination of bigotry, ignorance, and total lack of manners.
Gee. You sure are singing a different tune about “bastard” in this post than you were the first time you responded to it. In case you didn’t read my other posts you nit, I said I wasn’t going to call anyone a cocksucker on this board again. You are right that it is being courteous. That is not the fucking debate here. The debate is “Why does cocksucker mean homosexual?” which has gone back and forth rather evenly.
So why don’t you stop acting like you have THE answer to this question because you don’t. You have YOUR answer. There are other answers to the same question that do not agree with yours. That makes them no less right. You made your point here and it is obvious that you will not be persuaded otherwise so why not just go away and leave the thread to people that like to be reasoned with and not be told what to think?
I can only speak for myself, of course, but as a mother, I like meeting a mother fucker once in awhile.
**Holden:**I rather think that " I think this is taking PC to a crazy extreme" indicates quite the opposite of intent not to offend. Instead of conceding that his words were offensive to others, be responds that anyone who takes offense is crazy. Color me underwhelmed with that apology.