Why use insults that aren't insulting? (WARNING: profanity)

Great Debates
1

And now, I will magically turn a Pit thread into a Great Debate - voila! :slight_smile:

Some insults seem self-evident to me; some examples:

[ul][li]“Motherfucker” - Not a lot of people want to fuck their mother, and I certainly know I don’t. Seems repugnant to me, so using this to insult someone makes sense.[/li]
[li]“Bastard” - In the traditional sense of the word, no one wants to be accused of having their father run out on their mother, and really, insulting one’s mother, if intentional, seems like a good way to insult a person, so I can understand this one, too.[/li]
[li]“Bitch” - Again, in the traditional sense of the word, calling someone a dog is pretty insulting, so this also seems a 'natch to me (same with “son of a bitch”).[/li]
"Asshole" - Now, granted, there are lots of pleasureable things to do with your ass, what with that prostate gland that men have and all, but it being an orifice that excretes shit, I can certainly understand the insult, especially with some of the things that people say to deserve it.[/ul]

This is a pretty traditional, non-florid list, and of course there are others, which I’m sure you’ll all provide in turn. :wink:

However, there are some that confuse me, both for their original meanings and for their modern contexts; some examples:

[ul][li]“Fucker” - Besides the obvious, imaginative and wondrous uses of the various forms of “fuck,” I can’t understand why “fucker” would be an insult. We all like fucking - it’s fun, it burns calories, it relieves stress, etc. So why would calling someone a fucker be an insult? I’d be all like, “Hells yeah! Woo hoo!”[/li]
[li]“Cuntmuncher” - Now, granted, this might work if you were trying to insult a gay man, or even if you were trying to somehow (unsucessfully I’m sure) insult a lesbian (the self-obvious is hardly insulting), but using it as a general insult? Seems to me any straight man would be quite enthusiastic to admit that he does, indeed, munch cunt. (You can see the link below for a recent usage.) The indirect insult, of course, is that people who munch cunt are inferior and worthy of derision, so on this issue I’m sure lesbians and straight men are united.[/li]
[li](And here’s the link you’ve all been waiting for) “Cocksucker” - Again, this doesn’t work all that well as a general insult. Most straight men love cocksuckers, so why insult them? A lot of women love sucking cock, so I’m sure they wouldn’t be insulted. And gay men give and receive, so no insult there. That leaves lesbians again. If it’s as much fun giving or getting head as fucking, then it’s a useless insult.[/ul][/li]
Nonetheless, despite wordsmithing and deconstructing, these words are used as insults, are taken as insults, and offense is doled out like checks when you close on a house.

But I have a theory.

I’ll concentrate specifically on “cocksucker,” since that’s what so often gets bandied about (as seen in the thread linked to above). When a straight man insults another straight man by calling him a cocksucker there is an implied chain of thought there that, IMHO, should be addressed:

[list=1][li]Calling someone a cocksucker is meant to be insulting.[/li][li]Cocksucking is a bad thing.[/li][li]Cocksucking is something the insulter would never want to do.[/li][li]Gay men and women suck cock.[/li][li]The insulter would not want to be a gay man or a woman.[/li][li]The insulter is saying that the insultee is a gay man or a woman, or at least is no better than them.[/li][li]Gay men and women are undesirable because they do this bad thing.[/li][li]The insultee is offended because he has been associated with these bad groups and this bad action.[/list=1][/li]
Does this chain of thought take place consciously when someone calls someone else a cocksucker? Of course not - it just comes out from one’s lengthy list of epithets stored away for such emergencies, such as getting cut off on the freeway or getting too many sprinkles on your ice cream cone. But words, as we all know, are powerful things, and the baggage contained with these emotionally-charged words is there, like it or not.

Now, as a gay man, of course every time I see the word “cocksucker” I see it as an insult to gay men, for the above reasons stated. Yes, it could by those same reasons be meant as an insult to women as well, but (a) I don’t think that’s where the insult would have come from in the first place; (b) being a woman and/or being feminized and being homosexual have traditionally been (wrongly) intertwined; and (c) even if they are meant to be insulting 50/50, I can’t stand by and allow women to be treated so degradingly with such a broad brush, either. No matter how thin you slice it, the connotations that I see from this insult are worth challenging, IMHO.

Perhaps it’s not on quite the same par as using “gay” to mean stupid or uncool, as “cocksucker” is much more profane and vulgar, but I still see remarkable similarities. And I still think that if you use the term and people you didn’t mean to insult find it insulting, you ought to stop using it, at least in their presence.

I’m sure I’m opening myself up to unlimited personal attacks, and I’m sure threads will be linked to that point out my flaming hypocrisy, and I’m sure I’ll end up in the Pit over this, but I’m putting it out there anyway, if for no other reason as an exercise in language, the meaning of words and how people perceive other people.

Thank you.

Esprix

2

When I was a kid, the main theme of insulting words to use revolved around pointing out that they were gay. Not being gay, I tended not to feel too terribly insulted–it had about the same impact on me that calling me a cocker spaniel would have: “Um, no, actually, I’m not.”

However, I always knew that it was the intent of the insulter to insult me, and I tried to avoid pointing out the silliness of their insults–one of the earliest truisms I ever learned was that the way to really hurt somebody was to tell him exactly what he was, if there was something undesireable or “bad” about the person.

Fortunately, most of the bullies and idiots of the world don’t know this. It’s a kind of ignorance I’m comfortable leaving alone. I’ve been called lots more hurtful things than a cocksucker. Or a cocker spaniel.

So, for me, attempted insults like “cocksucker” don’t seem to me to be insults to gay men–they are insults to the person using the term.

p.s. I’ve never heard a woman called a “cocksucker”.

3

Ah, that the rest of us were as enlightened as you, Ethilrist. :wink:

Esprix

4

I’ve never understood men calling other men a “dick.”

[On preview, I see I had typed “duck!”]

5

They’re insulting because we generally agree that they are. Also, because of their intent to be. Also also, because if person A is able to refer to person B as something vulgar pigeonhole him as such, it’s an insult. The literal meaning of the insult itself really doesn’t mean much except that different words carry varying levels of intensity via vulgarity, history, etc.
I think we can all agree that to be called a motherfucker isn’t a good thing, now of course one can counter the insult with: “why yes I am, I fuck your mother in fact.” But the need to counter implies that insult was taken.
“the finger” really has lost all it’s literal meaning for me, and I think it’s really funny when people flip it thinking they’re hitting me right where it hurts, so I wave at them as if I thought they were waving to me.
It’s all part of the social fabric that binds us together.

The use of curse words to insult is a cheap easy way to have big impact with minimal effort; you don’t have to be too invested or involved, don’t have to actually prove that the person has actual excrement on their head to refer to them as one who does.

I always laugh watching the south park movie’s commentary on this:
“terrence, why on earth would you call me a pig fucker?”
“because you fuck pigs”
“well you fuck your uncle, you’re an uncle fucker”
then the uncle fucker song breaks out and hilarity ensues.

I don’t know if this is debate so much as discussion.

6

Okay, but I reserve the right to scream “Cocksuckaaaah!” when alone in my car. It’s actually my favorite word when I drive. I don’t say it around other people though. Okay, sometimes, but not around people who could possibly get offended.

I also say that things are gay when I mean they’re stupid or lame, but only around people who know I don’t mean it in an anti-gay way. Like my sister. Sometimes we’ll adopt exaggerated Valley accents and walk around going “Oh. My. God. That… is like… sooo gay.”

One time, when I was a kid of about six or seven, I was acting silly (I don’t remember what I was doing, but knowing me it was probably something stupid and outrageous for attention), and this other kid came up to me and said, very matter-of-factly “You… are gay.”

God knows I’d been called “gay” before, and I’d always wondered what it meant, so I asked him, flat out. He replied “It means… ugly.” I wasn’t sure I believed him, I mean it sounded so made-up-on-the-spot. I suspected he didn’t know either and just substituted another generic insult.

7

I am strongly of the belief that words are only rude when used in a rude way. If the reader is unsure if rudeness was intended they can challenge the writer on that point, but should not automatically take offence.
E.G.
Esprix you are a blinging doorflubber. --is rude

I hear Esprix is a skilled cocksucker. --is not

Cheers, Bippy

8

Gee Bippy this isn’t the Pit, you know. Settle down.

-Bubba.

9

I enjoy these debates. I tend to the centre. I think that cultures have their grab bags of insulting terms where you might draw out “bastard” or “motherfucker” or “cocksucker” pretty much at random. The SDMB has, in fact, expanded my repertoire to include a couple of terms I’ve never heard elsewhere.

Where I start to become amused is where logic and proportion are left by the wayside.

If you use the term “niggardly” and are accused of racism, then you’re innocent and I will make merciless fun of the people who can’t tell the difference between a homophone and a synonym.

If, on the other hand, when someone asks you to stop using “cocksucker” as a derogatory term you respond with an explanation about either a) how disgusting sucking a cock is to most men, though not most fags or women, so if you only use it on men and not fags or women it’s okay or b) a rant about how the next thing you know goat felching porn theatre floor jism stain licking hermaphrodites will form a support group and you won’t be able to call anyone one of those either, which will lead to either a totalitarian state or a language in which it isn’t possible to experess a thought, then I’m going to make fun of you too.

10

I don’t believe the point of cocksucker as an insult is meant to refer to being gay or gay people at all. I believe it is to imply someone does something that they find distasteful. Something they simply wouldn’t do.

Straigh guys are not interested in sucking cocks. It’s that simple. To imply that they secretly do like it, or actually do do it, when they know damned well they don’t, is the insult.

Homosexual acts or women don’t even enter the situation at all.

It is exactly the same as calling someone a bastard if they are in fact not a literal bastard. They know they aren’t, and so it is an insult.

On top of that, cocksucker has a lot of harsh consonants, so it’s a satisfying exclamation.

11

Ah, your fadda’s mustache!

12

I do not understand the compulsion to take insults’ meaning necessarily from their constituent terms; in some cases, like calling someone a liar, it is clear, but I don’t find it so in the case of “motherfucker”. In my own experience, the literal notion of fellatio never entered my mind when I used the term “cocksucker”. Neither did incest flash before me when I called someone (or was called) a “motherfucker”.

As profanity is not a cornerstone of my existence, I am more or less ok with abandoning some curses out of deference to those it offends on a level seperate than that the insult intends (should there truly be such a thing).

Call me a bastard all you want. It is true, and it is insulting, but it is not insulting because it is true.

13

Skid Row called me a “fry cook” in a Pit thread. Ummmm okay. . . .

I don’t even like to cook.

14

I’m with the “insulting because it’s meant to be insulting” camp.

However, lately when people insult me, I think “well, if you have such a big Florida*, why dontcha make something out of it?” I dont say that, but it seems obvious when people are insulting they usually don’t have the huevos to back it up.

*for the metaphor-impaired: “Florida, America’s ____” – Homer

15

Don’t give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings. Shut your festering gob, you tit. Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, pervert.

16

Quoting the entire OP makes the baby Jesus cry. :frowning:

Esprix

17

“Godless Couchfuck! If Jesus heard you talking like that He’d shit His pants! Is that what you want? A shitting Jesus?”

18

Seems like the Roman legions used to force their conquered enemies to perform felatio as an act of humiliation (as if being taken captive by the Romans was a cake walk), but when some cocksucker cuts me off in traffic, I don’t think of Roman legions.

Somebody calls me a cocksucker, no biggie. My mama don’t wear army boots, either…if you get my drift. :wink:

And Ethilrist

You never heard the joke about the guy who tried to get his girlfriend to give him head, but she refused because she didn’t want him to lose any respect for her?

Well she finally relented and gave him a blow job. Just after she finished, the phone rings. He answers, it’s for her.

And he yells, “Hey cocksucker, it’s for you!”

Anyway.

19

The correct quote is suposed to be: “you vacuous, toffee-nosed, malodorous, pervert!!!”

You Quote Queen!

[sub]Or Kuote King, please change according to the gender that will offend you the most![/sub] :wink:

20

GIGOBuster, No it’s not!