When does a boy become a man?

In My Humble Opinion
41

<Bolding mine>

I with you & M. Pearl right up to that last point … I ain’t seeing it.

trupa, I currently have a newly ordained teenage (13) grandson living in my home. He soooo badly wants to be treated like the adult that he believes himself to be.

Your response to Doug is so well thought out that I am seeking your permission to present and make some sort of attempt to explain these concepts to him using your examples …

Doug - I think your summary is a fairly accurate (if sumwhat flippant) description of adulthood as opposed to manhood. It is also a fairly good description of my day to day life. <spooky …>

I remember the one and only conversation I had with my dad as I entered my teen years. If I may, what follows is as near a direct quote as I can muster after 40 years …

"Son, a human being is born with only one thing that they truely own. It is the only thing you will ever be able to control in your life, and only you can make it shine or tarnish it. It is your honor.

"Everyone you meet while you live on this planet will judge you, rightly or wrongly, by your deeds.

"Be true to your word. Only you can make yourself untrustworthy.

"Be true to yourself. For only you can betray yourself, or allow yourself to be betrayed.

"Be true to those who call themselves your friends. Only you can drive them away, and eventually you will need them by your side.

"Be true to the society in which you live. Find someway to help those around you live a better life.

“But mostly, be true to that concept of Honor. Always speak the truth. Deciept is the way of cowardice.”

For my part, to answer the OP, merge a little of Doug’s summary (up to the point of unquestioning adherance …), most of trupa’s opinion, and top it all off with a strong dose of my dad’s sense of Personal Honor.

For whatever it may be worth.

Lucy

42

I think there’s a lot of truth to this, for both men and women. For a while, I saw a lot of those bumperstickers that read “If it’s not fun, why do it?” I hate that sentiment. Taking your dog to the vet isn’t fun. Feeding the baby at 2:00 am isn’t fun. Making hospice arrangements for your mother isn’t fun. These are all things that adults have to do. The key to being a good man or a good woman is do to them with compassion and resolution.

43

At the risk of sounding like I’m spouting plattitudes, I would offer this:
Disclaimer 1: If it makes you feel better, you can add ‘proper’ to the appropriate places.)
A boy becomes a man when he can take responsibility for himself.
A man becomes a husband when he can share himself with another.
A man becomes a father when he can take responsibility for another.
Disclaimer 2: I think the same applies for girls / women / wives / mothers.

44

That only applies if his daddy is a man; otherwise, it’s meaningless. And, according to Burt Reynolds in an OJ advervistement, it applies in Flordia as well.

45

LucyInDisguise,

I am touched by your request. Thank you. By all means, go ahead. I think guiding young minds to maturity is one of the most important things we can do in this world, and it seems like our Dads gave us both some pretty good thoughts to pass on.

Good luck.

46

As I was reading your post again, Beware of Doug, it reminded me of a part of my life a couple of years ago. To use your analogy, when shit keeps piling up on your plate, maybe God is telling you you need to eat somewhere else. That can be a difficult and scary proposition. Many people choose to remain in a situation where they are miserable because it is still familiar, and change scares them more that staying miserable. Part of being a man/adult is being able to say: “This is destroying my soul, I need to make a change” then doing it, while continuing to fulfil your responsibilities.

In my experience, God want us to follow his will *and *be happy & fulfilled. The former has lead me to the latter. Every time I’ve let Him drive, the destination has been a happpy one, even though the road has be scary a few times. Now, *knowing *what His will is, that is the hard part…

47

How about when you realize what an idiot you were when you were a boy. If you’re mature enough to realize that, then you’re mature enough to be considered a man.

Of course, like many others have noted, not everyone reaches this stage.

48

According to my eight year old son, a boy is a man when his armpits start to smell.

49

I’ve been giving this issue a lot of thought recently, as I’ll be turning 20 in 9 days. I feel like a man, sort of. It’s been gradual, but a few specific events stick out, many of them quite small. A few examples:

When I was a high school senior (age 18) I beat a friend and rival on a tiebreaker question to become the state math champion, which is just as geeky as it sounds. But when the results were being announced, the first thing I did upon learning that I was first was shake hands with my friend who came in second, told him how I had enjoyed competing against him for the last three years, and wished him luck for the next year. A few years before, I would have just jumped up and down and acted like a huge douche. That was one of the first times I ever worried about having class and personal dignity.

Then last year (age 18 or 19) I wanted to fly to a U2 concert in Pittsburgh, but I knew my parents wouldn’t approve. Then I realized that I could afford it and could do it whether my parents like it or not, so I was going, dammit! That realization was certainly a big step in the path to manhood.

And in the past few months, my father has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, which has triggered my parents to split up and get a divorce, which has devastated my mother. And I have called her, and comforted her, and tried to cheer her up. When I was younger, I would have been the one seeking comfort from her.

In all of these instances, I was moving closer to manhood. I believe that a man is someone who lives his life honorably, takes care of those he loves, and generally tries to always do what is right while maintaining a sense of personal independence. As such, I don’t think any particular milestone is enough to make a boy a man. A man is measured by the the sum of his actions and his beliefs, and no individual event can determine whether an individual is, in fact, a man. A boy becomes a man only when he is ready and willing to accept everything that that entails, which is a gradual process. I don’t know if I’m there yet, but I know that I’m closer now than I have been at any other point in my life. And that’s all I can do.

So the short answer is “it depends.” :slight_smile:

50

A boy becomes a man when:

He accepts responsibility for himself and nurtures those he loves,
Can support himself, and
Stands up for what he believes, and allows others to do the same

51

I am 44, and have been a man for a few years now. I dunno exactly when I became one, but there was a point when I was very, very acutely aware that I was one.

About 2 years ago, I went to visit my parent’s for Thanksgiving. When I got there, my dad and I left almost immediately to go to Newark to pick up my sister at the train station. The station there is pretty seedy, and it was late at night. We had lotsa time on our hands because the train was late. There were plenty of shady guys hanging around; still, I would never be afraid for myself under those circumstances. Muggers go after the clueless and the vulnerable. I don’t give off that vibe. There were cops there, too. Then I thought of my dad.

I don’t see my parents often, usually just Thanksgiving/Christmas; as a result, the difference in my parent’s health tends to make larger and larger jumps every time I see them. My dad isn’t frail, but at the time he was 68. His memory and cognitive skills aren’t what they used to be, either. He isn’t clueless and vulnerable, exactly, but he’s…68. If he wanders off, or if I wander off for that matter, he could get cornered in an area with no cops and few witnesses.

Then I realized: you know how when you’re a kid, and even when you get scared, really scared, you know in the back of your head that people, your parents especially, are still looking out for you? It kinda hit me all at once: now, I’m that guy. Someone was depending on me, although he’d never admit it; in those circumstances, I’d have to look out for my dad but try to do it in a way such that his own manhood is not offended. And there was an element of danger involved: if I were alone, I could choose to fight or run if I were outmatched; now, I have to fight.

In spite of this jolt of reality, I was even less afraid. I felt enervated, extra alive somehow; I was aware of every single person who even looked in my dad’s direction, I knew where the cops were, etc., all in a way such that my dad would never know. I admit it: I made sure to swagger just enough to make it clear tangling with us would be risky.

Manhood jolt number 2: During Thankgiving dinner, I sat at the head of the table, not my dad. I didn’t ask…he didn’t offer. My mom did offer, though; somehow, I thought my dad would be offended. AFAICT, nope, he wasn’t. Didn’t seem to mean anything to him; sometimes, I wonder if he wasn’t tired of being at the head of the table and was a little…relieved.

52

It’s old-fashioned and cliched by now, but Rudyard Kipling’s take deserves a mention:

*If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream–and not make dreams your master,
If you can think–and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on!”

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings–nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And–which is more–you’ll be a Man, my son!*

53

Mayo, if I read your post correctly, you’re, what … 20 - 21? The part of your post quoted above didn’t even begin to dawn on me till I was a 28 year old drunk - broke (bankrupt, actually), unemployed, and living on the street in the back of my pickup in December.

Looking back from this end, that was rock bottom. I looked around and found I had driven off anyone who might of considered helping, and realized that I needed to grow up, act like a man, and dig myself out of that hole. Took me five more years to get halfway there.

What I really stopped by to say, though, is this: Trust me - if you ain’t there yet, you’ve got one foot on each side of the threshold.

Welcome. Hope your road through this life has fewer hard bumps than most of us have had to endure.

Lucy

54

I think that’s as good an answer as any. And I can hear it in three-part harmony…

55

Many thanks, trupa.

Especially that luck part. I had occaision to share those thoughts with my 13 year old grandson last night.

Troubled kid, right out there on the edge … and yet …

I remain hopeful.

Lucy

56

I thought I was a man when I could drink a beer with my dad and sit around and use the f word at the football game. That lasted for a few years until my eldest brother started to call me for advice and things like that.

I guess I became a man when the already-grown-up-men in my life started asking for my opinion on things that I thought were important.

Maybe that means something to somebody.

57

Uh, yeah, that’s great Rud. The wife and kids (to be found down at the workhouse) will love that exercise in maturity.

I guess I could do this, but having just stood in line to vote, I’m not so hot on the waiting thing he also blathers about.

Look, I love “The Elephant’s Child” and “Rikki-Tikki-Tavi,” but this is not a guy to be taking life lessons from.

58

OK, so when I happen to enjoy my job I suddenly go back to being a child? And when I did boring and sometimes scary* housework as a 10yo, I was a grown up? Can’t agree, sorry.

  • Jumping out to a narrow, black-hole dark inside patio to hunt for some neighbor’s dropped stuff, for example. There were rats there.
59

By posting Pearl’s screed, I didn’t wish to imply I agreed with him. Quite the contrary. But I do agree with some of what folks said in responding to Pearl –which of course is different from agreeing with Pearl.

That I definitely agree with. Pearl seems to be counseling the opposite, though, which is never to question your lot.

I wasn’t trying to be flippant so much as bitterly satirical. I hope your life isn’t seriously like that.

One burden on a man is that he’s supposed to do 2 directly contradictory things:

  1. Don’t take any shit, but
  2. Eat it on a regular basis.

I agree with the honor business –be true to yourself, true to your word, true to your friends. But where does that shade off into Pearl’s fundamentalism, ie: basically being a slave to a hard and unforgiving God? And is that view of God a particularly masculine one?

60

Doug I didn’t mean the ‘flippant’ remark to be in any way derogatory, I hear the satire and even agree with the sentiment behind it. I merely meant that, when you strip away the ‘light-hearted phraseology’, your summary was an eerily (uncanny, even) description of my daily life. <struck me as spooky>

Upon reflection, perhaps a better way to clarify would have been to paraphrase your summary - if I may:

Do everything you need to do, right when you *need *to do it. (Procrastination ain’t gonna make it go away …)

Do it even if it’s painful, even when you feel like tossing in the towel and walking away.

Life will toss a lot of shit on your plate. Deal with it. Expect more. Develop a taste for it. Revel in the opportunity to take what ever comes your way knowing that you keep growing stronger and have the strength and character to defeat that which seeks to drive you into the dust.

Question all that you can - it is the only way you’ll learn. Believe in yourself and your abilities, because Santa, the Easter Bunny and all those other imaginary characters will not come to your rescue when your world seems to be falling apart.

In the final analysis, when you look around, you will see that you are the only one there to do what needs to be done.

That is an accurate summation of my day to day life.

In fact, right now I’m headed out to see what life is going to toss on my plate today and deal with todays helping … and come back even stronger tonight.

Lucy