Um, no always means no.
The bullshit about “her mouth said no, but her body said yes” was invented by men.
I am fully capable of saying exactly what I mean.
Well, not being female I can’t say. But I know for SURE that there have been times my body sure as hell was saying yes, and my mind was saying yes, but some moral code was stopping me. That moral code also stopeed the girl (ie-my “no” meant “no” no matter how aroused I was, and of course telling a male is aroused is not the most difficult thing). So, the body can say yes, I agree, and I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree that it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if she’s naked with “Fuck Me” painted on her chest, if she says “No,” be confused, be sad, be whatever. But don’t be a rapist.
[/sermon#2]
It doesn’t mean, to my mind, “maybe later”, at least in the situation which you describe. No means no. People have the ability to change their minds as circumstances change. I’ve always thought of it this way: If someone says no, accept it. If it happens to change in the future, it comes as an unexpected and pleasant surprise.
I’m going to guess that by saying “…women play games with men…” you refer to a situation where it seems as if it’s yes/no/yes/no/yes/no/maybe/yes/no. While I do believe that someone has the right to change their mind, I also believe that people can only play games with me if I allow them to do so. Sex is wonderful, but it’s certainly not something that is worth putting yourself in the position of being manipulated at the whim or for the amusement of someone else. Nor is it worth risking sexual assault or rape because you “thought you knew what she meant”. If you feel that someone is “playing games” walk away and deny them the opportunity to use you as their entertainment. Who knows, it could be just the thing to jar the other person into giving you a straight answer.
I’d have to say it was just about right.
If her mouth says “NO” and her body says “YES” ask yourself which one is going to testify in court.
I think TheRyan summed it up best with: ~ guy shouldn?t hear a ?No? and take it as ?I thought she wanted it?. It is indefensible bullshit for any guy to claim that.
Aynrandlover-it wasn?t your post.
The thread in general got me thinking about it. Date rape is never excusable; I hoped I made that clear. I was thinking more about the games men and women play with each other.
The only time I?ve been in a ?date rape situation? was when I was a freshman in college. A girl I knew called me up drunk and asked for my roommate and I to come over to her place; her friends thought we were good-looking guys and they were having a party. Towards the end of the night, she grabs my hand, takes me into her bedroom, strips down to her panties, turns off the lights and starts kissing me. After a while I slid my hand up to her breast and she freaked out. (It may just be me, but I?ve never been denied ?second base? while making out with a girl, before or since; that is beside the point here, but it was confusing) We?re both shit-faced, but she didn?t want to and I?m not the type of guy who could want to forcible go further, so I go pass out on the couch because I?m too drunk to drive and leave in the morning.
She avoids me for a year and tells people we both know that I tried to take advantage of her. When we finally talk about it, she admits to being blacked out and doesn?t remember what happened. I was fucked up and couldn?t tell she was in a blackout, but I remember what happened that night. But everybody she?s talked to thinks I?m some potential date rapist. This pissed the shit out of me.
Because this is exactly the situation when date rape occurs.
When her version of events (which she later admitted she couldn?t recall) got back to me, I was like ?where the hell is THIS coming from?
On the other hand, as I mentioned in the OP, girls who were a lot more subtle and said ?no? early in the night have ended up satisfying their own needs with me.
It leaves me shaking my head and asking my OP.
Now to post this and see how bad the grammatical marks will get mangled. It looks OK in preview.
Again with the ? for apostrophes. I just upgraded to Netscape version 6. Could this the problem; I didn’t have it with older versions?
647, start Word, go find Tools|AutoCorrect, choose the AutoFormat As you Type tab, and turn off “Smart Quotes”.
They’re not smart enough!
Anything other than a sober “yes” or unequivocable words and actions to that effect constitute “no”. It is not a matter of proceed until stopped, or a matter of loosening up with liquor. It is a matter of not proceeding until being clearly granted permission by a person who has the capacity to give such permission, and then immediately stopping if anything indicates that the permission is being revoked. It’s that simple.
I know that a lot of folks won’t like this, but having sex with a drunk person who gave permission while drunk is still sexual assault. No capacity to give consent equals no consent, regardless of what the person said or did at the time. Around my neck of the woods, prosecutors call these sort of cases “sleeping beauty” cases. And they win lots of them.
muffin-your points are well taken. A woman should never be taken advangtage of against her will–I think everybody on this MB would agree with that.
But, I’m curious of what happens when you replace the woman with the guy. The Gloria Stienam acid test.
In the same situations where a woman would be considered as being taken advantage of, a lot of guys would find relish.
This gets away from my OP, but it seems a fact of life nonetheless.
Maybe it is a fact of life–but being a guy, but,I must admit I’ve never felt abused by the women who took advantage of me when I was drunk.
I’ve woken up next to women I probably would not have fucked sober, and I imagime I’m not the only guy on the MB for which this is true. But am I yelling date-rape, as if it was the girl’s idea? No. I think some women might.
Isn’t there some sort of double standard?
Well, if he was drunk himself, as he admitted, then the sexual assault was mutual. That’s one of the big flaws with ‘Drunken consent is not consent’, you have situations where two people had sex but neither gave consent.
Oops.
I need to clarify “But am I yelling date-rape, as if it was the girl’s idea? No. I think some women might.”
This refers to men’s v women’s perceptions. Not refering to what constitutes a date-rape, which should be the a definition applicable to all.
Date rape is wrong, but men might not percieve themselves as victims of daterape.
Some women do not perceive some things that are considered date-rape rape, such as having sex when drunk. Most I have known have been in situations where they had sex with someone they considered a mistake later when drunk, and most take some (or all) the responsibility and blame the alcohol. I’m talking about times when it was consensual, no force involved, just the kind of stuff that happens when libidos are running high, chemicals are effecting judgement, and it seemed like a good idea at the moment, heck, they were there.
As to men not perceiving drunken sex as rape, I think that’s just because men have the same attitude about sex that a lot of women (as mentioned above) do - they see it as a mistake later sometimes, but they realize that the fault is also theirs. There was once a situation in my own life where I had sex with someone while impaired that I would not have had sex with sober, and I did regret it later (actually, I just thought of a second, so it’s twice). If I was a woman, according to the way some people in this thread are interpreting things, I was raped. I most definitely do not see it that way, I don’t even see myself as being wronged, I just made a stupid mistake while drunk, it’s happened a lot and I know it can happen when I start to drink.
In my opinion having sex with someone who is unconscious, or obviously unable to speak or control their movements, is rape, and in that case the punishment should be if they used force or the threat of force (I personally believe rapists should be put to death). But I honestly believe that consent is consent, regardless of state of mind, to believe otherwise is dangerous and impractical.
Oh, come on. How people actually explicitly state “Yes, I would like to have sex with you”? If someone has the opportunity to say “no” or “stop” (“having the opportunity” requiring full consciousness), and does not do so, that person is giving consent.
How did we ever get to this point! Society is constantly harping on the man to be the responsible party. A man over .08 making love to a woman over .08 even with consent is guilty of rape if she says so the next day.I’d probably still be in jail if society bought that crap in the 60’s. (As far as I know however, no one complained,) I do not hear one voice in the secular world encouraging them to take responsibility for their actions be it in suggestive dress, flirtation, suggestive language etc.
That’s because no decent person would blame a woman for being raped because she was dressed suggestively. I’ll leave it at that since we’re not in the Pit.
Yeah, the only thing that is the womans responsibility is protecting herself. Its not her fault if you don’t but its no ones responsibility but the womans.
When you cast your wide net over all the males around you by wearing a skimpy top and thongs over your volumptuous body, do you not have any sympathy for the males you reject?
Do you have no sympathy for the biological stress you have caused the rejected young men all for your own selfish ends? Of course there is no justification for a man to rape a woman under any circustance! But just as pedestrians have the right of way in a crosswalk, we damn well better teach our children to wear bright clothes at night and look both ways before we cross the street.
I think you have me confused with someone else.
Again, I think you must have me confused with someone else.
A woman wearing a skimpy outfit might reasonably expect to be stared at or subjected to cheesy pickup lines, but she should not reasonably expect to be raped because rape is not a reasonable response to any situation.