when does no mean no?

Great Debates
41

Oh give me a break!! Go home and jack-off if a cute girl dressing provocatively gives you “biological stress.” Works for me.

And what is this “secular” bullshit about not taking responsibility. How many priests, ministers, and televangelists have been caught in sex scandals? Sure when they get caught it gets publicized, but it commonly happens. You “religious” folk only have to pray for forgiveness and it is all wiped clean.

No means no. Even if you are about to stick your dick in her and she hesitates. Yeah it sucks. Romance is like. If you want to play with the big dogs, don’t bitch about the fleas. If I were in that situation, and I have been, I personally would back off, although with her ok, I still may relieve my “biological stress” on the spot.

42

Romance is like THAT, is what I meant to type

43

Nearly anything you do will be erotic to someone. Are you responsible when you walk down the street doing something you believe to be perfectly innocuous and thereby stimulating some odd person into commiting wanton acts against your person? I think you’d consider this odd person to be either criminal or insane, and in any case you would have no problem locking him up in the appropriate institution. Why apply a different standard?

44

I always make it a policy (in my best sultry voice, of course) to make sure my partner knows exactly what we are doing and gives full and explicit consent. This isn’t just to avoid legal hot-water. I do it because I respect who I am with and want to give them a full chance to back out or de-esculate with no problems or hard feelings. It’s generally a good policy in life to allow people an “out” if they need one. Of course if they don’t need one it is all systems go. Hopefully you are comfortable enough with your partner to ask that question (you ought to be, you’re sleeping with them!)

45

I’d have to agree with Tymp.

46

even sven–that sounds like good policy, but what happens if you’re shit-faced and you’re not using the same judgement that you would apply when sober?

Is it the guy’s fault you’re drunk and acting differently than you might act sober? If your partner is a one night stand you’ve only just met, he has no way to judge your behavior. I’m pretty sure some women do have one night stands and use men for sex; I’ve actually been on the recieving end of some–as other guys have; it never bothered me, personally. The female vs male perception of ‘abuse’. This is something that sexually active people do.

Or, if this couldn’t happen to you, what about the women who may find themselves in a place where they say yes at the moment and then later regret it.

I don’t think anybody is condoning date rape here, (and in no way was my OP seeking any justification of it) BUT are women who willingly say yes while drunk and horny responsible for having WILLING sex–even when they regret it in the light of day?

As to the end of your post, whatever makes you personally comfortable sleeping with a guy (a partner); this might not apply to all women who want to get laid, sober or not.

47

First of all, let me say that my opinions are based on personal experience, observation, and years of serious thought. How well I am able to express them after a sleepless night remains to be seen…

Definitely, no means NO. This to me seems to be a fairly simple concept that all but the most unthinking person SHOULD be able to comprehend. From what I have been hearing lately in conversation, media stories, etc., the real problems seems to me to be: 1)understanding when yes means YES! 2)Many people don’t even seem to be sure what date “rape” means. For example, a guy and girl are “fooling around”. Guy starts making moves heading towards having sex. Girl says she doesn’t want to go there. Guy says " aw, come on baby…", “you know I love you”, or any one of countless attempts at seduction. girl again says “no”, “I’m not ready”, etc. Guy attempts more seduction. Girl gives in and they have intercourse! THIS IS NOT RAPE! Sex may be the result of lies and manipulation, or the girl may have “given in” just not to be bugged anymore, whatever. This does not a rape make (though I have heard many women tell similar stories with the Idea that they were or almost were raped. Somehow in the last several years, there seem to be a lot of women trying hard to get accepted into the “I’ve been raped club”. When did victimization become a status symbol? Scary.) The girl DID consent, though possibly against her better judgement. My point is that her poor judgement is not the responsibility of the guy. And it is absurd to equate the guys use of manipulation (love promises, etc)with criminal acts or intentions! Rape is the act of FORCING (physically or otherwise), not coercing,someone into sex. The victims free-will and control are lost.

I believe that the same holds true if one or both parties are under the influence of alcohol or drugs (provided that they partook of their own free will). Please! Can we PLEASE have a return of even a modicum of personal accountability! Unless you are in such an advanced state of intoxication that you are unconscious or incoherent, a potential sex partner should be able to accept your consent as valid. INTOXICATION LOWERS ONE’S INHIBITIONS, NOT ONES FREE WILL! You might make bad decisions, but guess what? They are still YOUR decisions! And anyway, what if both parties ARE under the influence? Is it at all fair to say that the woman is not responsible for her own actions/decisions, yet the man is responsible for both his AND her actions/decisions/THOUGHTS?!

quote 647
“Is it the guy’s fault you’re drunk and acting differently than you might act sober? If your partner is a one night stand you’ve only just met, he has no way to judge your behavior. I’m pretty sure some women do have one night stands and use men for sex; I’ve actually been on the recieving end of some…”

Here we get into the when does yes MEAN yes question. A potential partner should be able to take you at your word without the need to carry a personal portable breathalyser, a degree in psychology, or a signed affidavit from the girl, without the fear of being charged with a crime after the fact. The way the whole date rape issue is going today, it almost seems like it would be harder for a woman to prove that she consented than that she was raped! Oh,the mockery this makes of the women who ARE raped!
The way I hear it, unless a woman is dead sober, initiated AND agreed to each separate step of foreplay and romantically stated “Yes. You may now place your penis in my vagina and move it back and forth in a stroking motion, until the time that spermatazoa has erupted from said penis, and you, and hopefully I, are spent. You may now proceed with out fear of police”, she has been raped. This is absurd! All of this crap puts way too much burden on men, takes all self-responsibility away from women, and makes sexual encounters confusing, stressfull(if not completely romantically unfulfilling) for both.

As I mentioned at the begining of what seems to have become a sermon, I do have personal experience with this subject. When I was 17, and still a virgin, I was “date raped”. I had been drinking (yes, illegally!) quite a bit while hanging out with a group of, well, I have to say juvenile delinquents. Long story short, I ended up at one guy’s house and we were “fooling around” on the sofa. We moved to the bed and he began to try to have intercourse with me. I said no, loud and clear, and was repeatedly ignored. I was begining to pass out. When I awoke enough to feel him penetrating me, I was instantly filled with strength. I yelled “no” as loud as I could, and I threw him off of me and left. Was I raped, yes. Could I have prevented it? Hell yes! We want to put all the responsibility on the men. They should be able to figure out if we are too drunk to consent, if we are or aren’t consenting when we say “ohnobabypleasedon’tstop”, etc . Fine, but if we are going to put this burden on the men, women need to own up to their responsibilities too: not to play games and not to put ourselves at unnecessary risk, or let ourselves get to a point where we can’t even trust what’s in our own heads.

Three finally final points:

  1. Yes, ideally a woman should, as the argument goes, be able to walk down the street stark nekkid without any harassment. But, alas, we do not live in an ideal world. Running around nude without harassment may possibly be achieved someday. If you want lack of sexual THOUGHT though, nature was not built that way…

2)Most of the current thinking on this, and other sex-related subjects, undermines and stigmatizes women. And so much of it comes FROM women! We’ve come a long way baby, so let’s take a few leaps back? Sure…we are incapable of taking responsibility for ourselves or dealing with adversity, so let’s have the (mostly male) legislature and judiciary sweep in and save our helpless selves. Hmmm…wasn’t this what we were trying to get away from for so long? I guess we’ve come full circle…

3)Nature, evolution, god, whatever (let’s leave it at that!) “made” us, made us in 2 models: male and female. NEITHER innately good or bad, guilty or innocent. Isn’t it about time we BOTH take responsibility for all that happens (+ and -) between the sexes?

48

I just wanted to add that male on female rape is not the only kind. Women DO rape men, more often than you think ( though it is more often “date” or “aquainance” rape, and less likely to be reported). And there are plenty of rapes between people of the same sex (“date”, “aquaintance” and “stranger” rape). The point is, rape is not a “women’s” issue. It affects everyone.

–ng