It’s the race-discussion equivalent of Godwin now? Or is it merely a different perspective, presented by a poster living in a different country, in a direct response to a poster other than you?
Yes, you might have identified the USA in your post, but RNATB didn’t. I was responding to RNATB, not you.
I was just saying: I knew it was bound to come up eventually.
Fair enough, Marley, and I say this meaning no offense to you personally, although we are probably an insignificant little country by US standards, it wouldn’t hurt for US posters to once in a while be prepared to take a leaf out of a book written by a country that has come a very long way when it comes to race relations. We have been to hades and back on this issue, and we might just have some wisdom to share.
Yeah, I hear ya.
While I’m certainly a proponent of avoiding unnecessary fisticuffs, I still think it’s important–if we can safely do so–to let those kinds of people know who *we * are, even if our taking a stand won’t do anything to change who *they * are, y’know? Of course, on the other hand, perhaps it’s better to have them reveal themselves for the bigoted dicks that they are sooner rather than later. All the better to let us know which assholes to avoid like the plague they are.
But, like I said, I hear ya.
I can’t really address this since you haven’t provided examples of this behavior (which I can sort of understand, given your assertion that things are implied and not overtly stated), but I do wish that you could’ve provided examples, 'cause I’d sure be interested in knowing what the left has done that could in any way give credence to the philosophies of the BNP.
Well, similarly, whenever I’ve applied for a job, looked for an apartment, or been stopped while driving by a cop, my race/ethnicity has not been mentioned. Most people are too smart to be engaging in that sort of business. That doesn’t mean, however, that it’s never been a consideration, either to a lesser degree or a greater one, or whether the outcome was in my favor or not.
No, this doesn’t cause offense. Or, rather, the offense is that I *am * more likely to be viewed with suspicion solely because I’m black; pointing out that this is the case is not.
I’m curious–can you give me verifiable examples of these jobs and other positions that are restricted to people from minority groups? I don’t know how it works in the UK, but here in the States I’ve occasionally seen “minorities and women are encouraged to apply,” but that, to my mind, certainly =/= “whites should not apply/will not be considered”.
I would, and I do.
I assume you’re talking about me here, so…
Well, yeah, if being white means that you’re not followed around by security in stores to make sure that you don’t steal something, or that you don’t get stopped by the cops on the New Jersey Turnpike when you’re not driving any faster than *much * lighter-pigmented drivers, or that people don’t cross the street out of fear that you’ll do some harm to them (all of which have happened to me–and I have never in my life dressed or acted “ghetto,” BTW), and if you want to call the lack of such prejudiced treatment “special rights,” then yes, being white in this society does afford you some “special rights”.
And, again, I wonder if the day will ever come when white folks stop acting as if we make this shit up just because we apparently have nothing better to do than to make them look bad or feel some imaginary guilt.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting you are making this up, the problem is your assertion that white people have special rights. IMHO not the case, what is probably the case is that in certain areas there is prejudice against you due to skin colour, this does not mean that I get any special treatment, the special treatment is the negative way you are treated.
Will look for some cites and try to answer your other questions above later.
Struggling to back up my assertion, I’ll retract it for now.
True, I’m not saying it’s not an issue, simply that it is not as case of me being privileged, but of you being discriminated against. Different issue, plus of course it’s not just white people that discriminate. I’ve met asians that are racist to black people and vice versa.
Good, none intended. Of course, many groups are viewed with suspicion, not just black males. White youths in hoodies, punks, rock fans, all are viewed with suspicion by one group or another. It all depends on someone’s point of view. We can only hope that attitudes will change.
Things are better now than they’ve ever been, yes there is still room for improvement, but there always will be, we don’t live in an ideal world. Plus in my cynical way I think some form of prejudice is inherent in the human condition, probably a side effect of our collective tribal past where anyone outside “the tribe” was a potential competitor and therefore fair game.
I’ve looked and can’t find any at present, if I recall the examples I have seen they were usually for community based roles for local authorities supporting the needs of a particular community. Now while it is highly unlikely that someone from outside that community would get the job restrictions were placed on who could apply.
I’d just like to say that I was offended by the OP, which is possibly something you have to contend with every day. My point is you can’t fight racism with racism.
Weirddave asserts that he was being ironic, maybe it’s the transatlantic divide, but irony doesn’t really come across in his rant.
You’re right–no one in this thread has as yet suggested that I’m making this up, so I want to take a moment to apologize to Vinyl Turnip. Vinyl Turnip: That was my frustration speaking, and not an accusation that was meant for you. I apologize if I gave you the wrong impression.
As for the remainder of your post, Stryfe, and the post that succeeds it: I can’t respond right now b/c I’m trying to get out of the office and run some errands, but I’ll respond within the next day or two, if not later on today.
No worries; I was, in the main, being facetious.
I am boneheaded, but not so severely that I don’t recognize that certain hassles are visited upon black people in America far more frequently than upon us melanin-deficients.
An excellent point. There seems to be some kind of feeling around these days that only white people can be accused of being racists. Anybody being a racist is a bad thing, even when they’re being racist against a majority.
Li’l Pluck, look what you’ve gone and done - you made Vinyl Turnip post seriously. 
I know. I feel all icky.
Sounds like two different ways of saying exactly the same thing, to me.
**HazelNut Coffee **said:
To which **Really Not All That Bright **responded:
Aren’t accidents of birth like where you were born, to what family, and in what color, rather silly things to be proud of? It’s not like they are goals one strives for or options one weighs and then chooses. One can be legitimately proud of oneself or another for their own achievements, but collective pride and collective guilt have always struck me as alien, untenable concepts (especially with regard to such luck-of-the-draw happenstances as the aforementioned).
No pride for what I didn’t create
No pride in what I didn’t make happen –
“Deed’s Pride”, Only Living Witness
Actually, that happened to me two or three times that I’m aware of. Once I was stopped an searched after I had left the store. (I think it was the length of my husband’s hair as much as anything.) I also had a pharmacist refuse to fill prescriptions for pain relievers written by my dentist. What’s more, the pharmacist got mad at me for trying to fill it! I was ignored when I went into a nice jewelry store and ignored (and not seated) when I went to a restaurant.
In New Orleans my companion and I were not admitted to a locked antique shop. The gentleman accompanying me was the son of the man who owned the second largest antique house in Denmark. We had the last laugh.
Other people do sometimes have to deal with discrimination. Maybe it’s just not as constant. I have no doubt that my life has been easier because I am white. Black people of my age were not given the same privileges. I thought it was unfair even then.
It wouldn’t mean “whites should not apply/will not be considered.” There would be nothing wrong with white females applying.
Nice catch. I should have said “at least half.” And that is the way I think of gender issues. It particularly bothers me that fathers are not given a fair shake in custody issues in family court.
I can understand the effort to instill pride in any group of people who have been taught to feel shame or powerlessness. I have no need to feel any sense of “white pride.” Most of the time I don’t think about my race until someone like Weirddave finds relief in making a racist statement against whites which he is free to do since he is white.
:rolleyes:
I strongly disagree with this policy.
I’m a white female, and the only thing that hasn’t happened to me on that list is being stopped by the cops. I don’t dress strangely, and I generally never used to, but I’ve had two of your three examples happen to me quite embarrassingly often between the ages of 13 and 25. It’s not just visible minorities that get treated differently; it’s everyone who doesn’t exactly fit the majority’s idea of what people are supposed to do or look like.
Then again, how often do you get treated like a space alien when talking about activities, foods, and other parts of your “home culture” that aren’t exactly the same as your peers? I get it all the time around here, and less often but still frequently when I was younger and living in a more diverse community. It’s gotten to the point where I want to move to a bigger place where the likelihood of me actually running into someone of my ethnic background* who can relate to my cultural viewpoint instead of just getting blank stares and “you’ve gotta be kidding” remarks any time I mention something regarding my home culture. (This includes the names of my brothers, who got more distinctly ethnic first names than I did.)
[sub]*I don’t mean the people who are “Oh, my great-great-great grandfather moved over here from [insert Scandinavian country here] back in the 1820s and we sometimes eat [insert Scandinavian food that Icelanders don’t eat here] on holidays” types. I mean people who are within one or two generations of “the home country” and haven’t had all their cultural practices washed away by assimilation. The first people often still give me the weird “OMG it’s a dirty foreigner” look when I mention something they’re unfamiliar with, and that’s not what I’m looking for more of.[/sub]
Okay, cool. Thank you. I don’t know what my reputation on these boards is (probably mostly invisible, though) but I do aim (mostly successfully, AFAICT) to avoid giving offense. Well, unnecessary offense, anyway. 
Well, as **Miller ** pointed out, that sounds like two ways of saying the same thing. That being said, whatever language you use, it doesn’t make me feel any better, y’know? 
And you’re absolutely correct–it’s not just white people who discriminate or who are racist (and I’ve never claimed as much). I will say, however, that white people (as a group, mind you, not *you * as an individual) have held the lion’s share of power in much of the world for so long that it’s been…um, easier for them to enforce their particular prejudices.
As for Asians? I believe that I’ve written previously on these boards about some of the Asian students on my campus–particularly the foreign students–who look terrified whenever they encounter black people. Granted, my university is located in Harlem (the administraion tells the parents of the fresh-faced frosh that it’s Morningside Heights, but…oh, well), and I’m sure these students have seen some of the thornier side of the neighborhood, but that, to my mind, doesn’t justify their fear of me. I was raised by survivors of the Jim Crow South, and if my family can come out of that experience without hating all whites (or without teaching me to hate all whites), then I think it’s reasonable to expect similar results from others who most certainly haven’t suffered similarly. And no, fellow Dopers, I’m not saying that all Asians feel this way, so let’s not take it there, okay?
I agree that things are better now, and are always getting better. I realize that I don’t have to deal with the same kind of racism that my parents and grandparents (may they rest in peace) had to deal with, but, of course, that doesn’t mean that racism no longer exists. And your claim of atavistic tribalism interests me. Are you saying that you believe that we’re genetically encoded to be prejudiced against someone who’s different from us? If so, I’m sorry, but I don’t buy it. I mean, if I can endeavor to treat other people the way that I’d like to be treated, why should other people have an excuse to do otherwise that boils down to genetics? I don’t get it.
Well, there ya go. It makes sense that a position in a community-based authority would be filled by someone who’s a member of that particular community, whatever the make-up of the community might be. (I live in a section of Jersey City, New Jersey, that’s populated by Indians, Hispanics, blacks, and whites–on the side of Journal Square that’s headed towards The Heights, for any Dopers who might be familiar with the area–so a person from any one of these groups would be eligible, for the most part, to fill a position in a community-based organization.) Really, the fact that such a position would be restricted to a member of said community doesn’t support your claim that, for instance, white folks are generally locked out of positions solely because they’re white.
Well, its not as if I imainge that there are legions of non-blacks in my everyday travels who have visions of pitchforks, bonfires, and “black bodies swinging in the Southern breeze” dancing around in their heads, but to some extent or other, I’m reminded on a fairly regular basis that “life…ain’t…no crystal stair,” especially if you’re black in America. But, hey, you persevere b/c if you don’t, you don’t survive.
Ma’am, I’ll humbly accept whatever lashes of your wet noodle that you wish to dole out.
Ooh, baby.