Brava, Canuck Suzie!
ChiefScott, I really do empathize with you for your situation, and I commend you for the effort you put forth into maintaining a strong bond with your son. And in many cases you’d be right on the money about how to handle an ex during a difficult break up. But I think you’ve failed to really take to heart that Gail’s ex (or soon-to-be ex) is a mentally abusive and manipulative alcoholic. Therein lies the difference between your situation and hers.
And even though he’s not drinking at the moment, that doesn’t make him not an alcoholic and that doesn’t seem to have made him stop manipulating and abusing her emotionally.
What he has said to her about her not respecting his time and telling her that her demands will be hurtful to their child is cruel and abusive. Trust me. You’ve obviously never been in a relationship with someone that’s such a master at manipulation as this guy is.
Zyada’s completely right - no amount of love, patience or understanding will change this man. He needs treatment, plain and simple. As long as she continues to allow him to suck her into this living hell he’s created for her, he’ll keep doing it – drinking or not.
And as long as she continues to allow it, her daughter is at great risk of being emotionally crippled by his behaviour as well.
And no, I’m not “wish[ing] to string this guy up by the balls, making his life as miserable as possible, just to make [myself] feel either more powerful or under control.” With all due respect, you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. These kinds of men are SO controlling that the women who become involved with them slowly but surely lose all sense of self-worth and begin to question every decision they make. Just look at Gail’s question to get a perfect example of this. He has her questioning whether or not she’s right in expecting him to father his own daughter, for heaven’s sake!
And no, I don’t hate all men, and I certainly would never deny any man the right to participate in his child’s upbringing IF that’s what he wanted. One of my closest male friends is going through a divorce from a lowlife piece of garbage wife and I’m encouraging him to go for full custody of his 2 daughters. I think he’d make the much better parent. So it’s not about men vs. women - it’s about ABUSIVE men and the damage they cause to women who fall victim to them.
“How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world.” - Anne Frank
Well put Shayna.
But you’ve been around long enough to know that there is a lot of “Burn the witch!” syndrome here on the board – especially in threads such as this one.
The guy is always the shitbird and then 8 or 9 other posters will describe exactly how bad of a shitbird he is.
I point out to you your first post here, kelli’s and inertia’s.
Can a guy ever straighten himself out to the point where the ex-wife isn’t a stupid moron for dealing with him?
How many years does an alcoholic need to be sober before he can become a Dad again? If he starts a loving relationship with another woman where there is no abuse, will he be allowed to shed the “wife abuser” stigma?
When it comes to manipulation, it seems to me as if Gail is doing her fair share here too.
She invested enough love into a relationship with her ex to have married and had a child with him. Will she ever be able to admit she is hurt because the relationship failed (even if that failure was 100 percent his fault), and that she is unwilling to let him forget it?
Of course we only know of the situation what was put (and possibly shaded) in the OP. I’m not saying that Gail is doing this consciously or maliciously. Only that she is doing it, thereby bringing down the wrath of other posters upon her ex’s head and affirming her position as to how she deals with him.
Just say no.
Loverock used smilies, and see where it got him?
God Scott, its not a witch hunt!
She asked a simple question in the OP, should she/is she selfish to expect him to take a day off from watching tv to watch their daughter so she doesnt miss work.
She wants him to watch her, he doesnt want to.
read the OP, he doesnt want to take care of his child. We arent talking about father of the year here!
Not wanting to miss work is a big concern for custodial parents. I am entitled to 6 sick days per year. Do I take work off when I am sick? NO! I take my days when the kids are sick, just like all the other single parents out there. If I can find someone to care for a sick kid, I save a sickday.
Do you know that prospective employers prefer not to hire single parents for that exact reason? I didnt even tell them at this job that I had kids until I had been there a while.
She is absolutely right in trying to find someone else to look after her daughter. He doesnt work, and he is the girl’s father…pretty obvious choice.
Scott, you may have a point that everyone pulls their own baggage into threads like this, but I am not suggesting she cut him off, or do anything drastic like that. I dont think her request for his assistance was unreasonable. And if you were her ex, you would have gladly agreed. We all know you are a devoted father, there are a few here on the board. But you aslo bring your baggage into threads like this.
Refusing to admit there are bad fathers is just as bad as saying all non custodial fathers are scum. And abuse isnt always accompanied my marks on a child. If she feels like he doesnt want her there etc. thats a form of emotional abuse. (I think we all endure that type of abuse alot of the time, but that doesnt make it right.)
Some men, whether by genetics, or upbringing are just not capable of parenting (some women too, dont get me wrong !) Even in nature, there are animals who fail to care properly for their young, and the offspring dies. I have met great people who dont want kids, are they wrong? No, maybe they recognize in themselves the inability to parent.
Is this guy ‘unable’ to parent? Is he just lazy? Is he simply lacking in the skills and oppotrunity necessary to parent? We dont know. We dont know what he was like before the split.
Maybe he was like Scott, a loving involved parent, maybe not. We only have what she wrote.
Maybe he is a shitboy, loves his kid, but cant connect, wants no responsibility.
maybe like Scott he just doesnt know how to act around her.
I have a feeling that he was pretty uninvolved when they were together. If that is the case, you cant expect him to grow ‘parenting’ skills overnight. He may never have them, he might not even want them.
good points have been made, especially about his mental manipulation of his ex wife. Even if we dismiss the rest of her post, the guilt is evident. Why on earth should she feel guilty for asking him to take care of his own child?
If he is making her feel this bad for asking him to take a day off from the tv…how else is he manipulationg her?
Is his newfound faith sincere? Who knows.
Has he really ‘reformed’? Impossible for us to know.
Would a decent father take care or his child? Oh, definately.
In a nutshell: no, you are not being selfish to expect him to care for his child when she is ill. You are not being unfair by trying to keep you job secure. It is not too much to ask him to turn off the tv and spend time with her.
Bringing activities and a pizza wont cut it, it doesnt sound like he would play the game with her anyway.He isnt complaining about lack of activities, he is complaining about loosing his tv time.
Tomorrow is Monday. Whatever you decide to do with you daughter, you are pretty screwed either way.
My 2 cents: Dont miss work. Your daughter will cope. Dont let him guilt you into anything.
As you could probably tell, by the OP, I am pretty angry at my husband. He is working on fixing his other character flaws, but he is still lazy. I don’t know how one fixes laziness. And I wonder if he recognizes it in himself.
He used to watch her on most day when I went to work. He wasn’t terrible…he didn’t ignore her completely. He wasn’t very creative, though. He’d play computer games and read to her if that’s what she wanted. When it was time for a meal, he’d hand her a bowl of pretzels. Then, when I’d get home, two or three nights a week, he’d go off into his “music room”, listen to his stereo and drink a 12 pack (or more) of beer.
He says he hasn’t had a drink since I left and I believe him. He used to have a horrible temper and shout obscenties about the least little thing. He doesn’t do that anymore, either. My daughter says he doesn’t lose his temper around her when I’m not there.
So he is trying but he’s still lazy. I think he doesn’t want to spend a whole day with her
but he will watch her for a few hours.
So, he is trying. I also think that what I want is for him to feel differently. I want him to want to watch her. How does a person get that?
And at this point, I have no intention of moving back in with him, so don’t worry about that. I signed a one year lease on this place…at least that’s what I tell him.
I have to see for sure if the Christianity and the non drinking take.
–Gail
“Predictable, really I suppose. It was an act of purest optimism to have posed the question in the first place.” --John Cleese
Gail, this is a gut-wrenching story, with a lot of great responses for you to consider. I can’t add much, just to say that I agree with Shayna. From what you tell us, this man is manipulative and an emotional abuser - drunk or not. I spent 11 years with a man who did his level best every day to make sure I felt like a walking bag of shit, whether he was drunk or not (“And I hate the way you walk - you look like a goddam cow. That eye-shadow looks like crap on you. What the hell are you wearing?! You breathe too loud.” [Tell me how I’m supposed to breathe quieter…]).
I understand what it is to want to make things work. I stuck it out for so long because I, too, was certain that he loved me “in his way” and would someday “come around.” This is dangerous thinking, Gail. Please don’t fall into that trap. It doesn’t ever work, and you’ll lose yourself in the process. It took years to regain my self-respect…some never do.
While I’m not a mother, my experience with selfish, emotionally manipulative men leads me to say “Run and never look back.” Your daughter won’t be missing much without this selfish, lazy, disinterested “father” in her life, from the sounds of it. You’re a smart, hard-working, loving woman. You will find a way to raise your daughter yourself - millions do. I say, take the day off and tell your ex to take a flying leap (if he can drag his lazy ass off the sofa, that is). Some father. Gah.
No, I’m not a man-hater (Mr. Goodwrench could give you the straight dope on that subject… honey, you reading this?). I’m an emotional-hostage-taker hater. This “man” of yours fits that bill, perfectly.
Whatever course you decide to take, I wish you the best. Be smart. Be strong.
StoryTyler
“Not everybody does it, but everybody should.”
I Spy Ty.
Gail, my heart goes out to you and your family.
One thought comes to mind: You probably will be “damned if you do” and “damned if you don’t” ask your ex to help take care of your daughter.
Therefore, you must reinvent your self-image, enough to have confidence in your own decisions about what is best for your daughter. Good luck to you and yours.
Chief - read my post again. Alcoholism is not the core issue here - abuse is. What does it matter if he’s be clean for ten years, if he is still abusive? You’ll notice I don’t have any baggage regarding alcoholism - I haven’t been in a relationship with anyone who had an addiction to anything stronger than nicotine. OTOH, my ex had a similar problem (mud fetishim), which he has been cured of. If that had been the only problem he had, well, I would have told him to save his money - that was never a problem in our marriage.
Gail - don’t be deceived by the lack of temper tantrums or shouting. My uncle rarely raised his voice. Instead, he told his wife and children in the most loving tone of voice things like “You’re such an idiot”, “You’re ugly”, etc. And my ex always thought he being non-abusive because he never shouted.
It is so hard to see when we are being abused ourselves. I found this passage helped me see where I was being subjected to destructive behavior:
Gail, kells –
I understand fully what you are concerned about. “He’d rather watch television than watch his child.” If that is what he said, you should be miffed.
But if all he said was “I can’t do it” and you’ve inferred (because you know he watches television all the time) that he’s put the television before his daughter, you may be mistaken.
Guys, unlike women, don’t get too into the feelings aspect of situations like that. If he truly had a problem relating to his daughter and was uncomfortable now, he’d never say it. It’d go a little like this:
“Gail, Jr’s sick. Can you watch her Monday?”
“No I can’t. She gets bored watching television with me.”
“That’s right! Put the television before your own daughter!”
“Whatever.”
You, as a women, come away knowing for certain that he’d rather watch TV than watch his daughter. Where in reality, it’s an easy cop out for him 'cause he’s uncomfortable around his daughter and doesn’t want to admit/discuss it with you.
Now that is just an example, it could be a myriad of other things, or exactly what you think.
Either way, I’ve made my point about the instant condemnation of guys by ex-wives and others without knowing the whole story, or by those whove deluded themselves into thinking they know the whole story.
Some folks’ll never understand. For example after our posts from last night, StoryTyler said:
And no matter what I say, whoever hurt her IRL has affected the way she looks at all men. And a couple of typed thoughts by me ain’t gonna change that.
Thanks for allowing me to get my thoughts down without jumping all over me for being a wife-beater supporter, or abused child advocate.
Sorry, if any of the specific cites I mentioned came across as hurtful. I was mearly trying to be forcefull in how I got my point across.
Friends?
Just say no.
Loverock used smilies, and see where it got him?
You know I adore you scotty 
Gail, Maybe if he is good with her a few hours at a time, you will have to live with that. Ask him to split the day,he has her all morning, you take only the afternoon off.
Its better than nothing, and maybe its all he will ever be capable of. If so, thats still better than my kids have, so let her spend time with him, encourage it, make it as easy as you can. BUT, if she ever makes the slightest inferrence that he is being mean, neglectful, whatever, then dig deep, and get all the info you can. By what you write, it doesnt sound like he is ‘bad’ with her. Not the kind of father we wish he was… but, he is what she has.
Sometimes you just have to settle for what you can get. And if a few hours instead of all day is all you get, its still better than nothing.
Let us know how Monday goes.
K
Reading Chief Scott’s and other’s responses, it behooves me to clarify some of my own words.
There are just a whole pot-load of issues here. Gail’s Ex is no longer drinking, and that’s a big step right there. I would never, ever suggest holding a child away from a parent. (And yeah, my folks divorced with spectacular acrimony when I was 5.) I do know, inside and out, what it’s like to a “wish-bone kid”.
Part of my valuable two-cents to Gail was based on the age and circumstances around her daughter. An impaired/floundering parent, of either sex, is one thing under normal circumstances. A young, sick child is a whole 'nother issue.
Let’s face it, kids can be demanding. Fair being fair, that can be hard to learn–and I believe it’s made somewhat harder for men. So relating/caring for a healthy child is part of the mix. But Gail is faced with making sure that a sick little girl will get the care she needs.
I’m not using the words “abuse”; it sounds like the Ex is trying and has stopped the over-the-line behavior. That is all credit to him. But no matter what, his needs as a parent-in-training or adult-in-recovery don’t outweigh the needs of a sick little kid.
I have no doubt he’d try–but by his own words, he’d try reluctantly. And that isn’t parenting. Kids (and adults) can’t help being sick–or unhappy or messed up. But the hard truth is that kids learn by example. It’s hard enough to learn that parents aren’t all-powerful and protective beings.
Gail’s Ex is trying, and that’s all to his credit. Any decent person will wish him well. But right now, he can’t give his child what she needs. Adults give; that’s the deal. No child should feel like a burden for being sick. It’s the adult role to teach manners, patience and consideration, but that doesn’t include a sick child having to make allowances for adult boredom. She isn’t there to entertain her dad; he’s there to care for her.
That’s why I said hang in and build a strong, loving, secure foundation for her. With that solid ground beneath her feet, she’ll be able–with time, love and a lota luck–to forge her own relationship with her father, based on what they can both give at the time.
Chief, no put-downs or side-ways slams intended in any way. But it doesn’t sound like the situations are the same. You’re heartsick to be a more “right there” Dad to your son. Gail’s Ex has unlimited chances for proximity but his own personal problems are the barrier.
Can we agree that the a sick little 'un takes precedence? And that kids grow fast and generally see with honest hearts, if given the chance?
So much pain for so many people. Wish I had real answers.
sigh
Veb
Doesn’t everyone, veb.
Just say no.
Loverock used smilies, and see where it got him?
Gail, I’m going to chime in, even though I have no children, have never been married, let alone divorced or separated, and my parents were married for 45 years.
You haven’t mentioned if your husband is paying child support - If he isn’t, and since he’s not working, I feel (as long as you don’t think his would be an unhealthy environment) that he should be providing all of your daughter’s childcare. Certainly I would hate being stuck taking care of a kid only when she’s sick, but if her were to care for her day in and day out it would hopefully build a bond between them, even if one doesn’t exist at present. A child deserves to know her father, and he owes his chld his time and love.
Mind you, I’m only saying this if you (who know them both better than any of us can from a couple of paragraphs) feel this is a safe environment for her to be in. But he owes you and he owes her.
StG
Um, no. It affects the way I look at emotional blackmail, and my opinion of people who expect others to take responsibility (or blame) for them. I happen to love Men. Selfish, lazy jerks earn my instant disdain every time, though (male OR female).
Particularly since you have your own “I LOVE my child so I’m not a bad guy” agenda. We’re not talking about you, Chief, nor anyone like you. We’re talking about creeps who have children then abdicate their responsibility, expecting someone else to raise them, care for them, spend time with them, sit with them when they’re sick, etc. We’re talking about mental abuse, using guilt and emotional threats against (supposed) loved ones. We’re talking about blatant selfishness and perpetual self-indulgence and self-importance. You need to get off your high horse and understand that not everyone loves their children as you do, nor is everyone willing to make sacrifices for them as you are, and that a bad back and a lazy disposition are NOT valid excuses to blow off one’s parental duties.
Sorry Chief, but you’re a bit out of line here. I’m sure you’re nothing like this lazy lout of Gail’s, and never implied otherwise (nor did anyone else). Chill out, dude. This isn’t about you. 
StoryTyler
“Not everybody does it, but everybody should.”
I Spy Ty.
Says ST:
And not everone has such apparently strong hatred towards men as you do.
I agree that I often stand up for guys in threads such as this 'cause I hate to see things read into the original and subsequent posts that was never there in the first place.
Ty, Can we agree to disagree and leave it at that?
Just say no.
Loverock used smilies, and see where it got him?