Who's in the wrong here?

In My Humble Opinion
21

What’s more alarming than coming on the internet to ‘deal’ with these ‘issues,’ is that it’s behind the spouse’s back and in some circles would be considered betrayal.
Now if she went to a marriage counselor under the premise that she has no one to talk to because her husband will not be compromising, than that’s a different story.

Somehow I don’t believe this is the case..and this sounds like someone simply looking for some vindication or support to soothe their wounded ego.

Maastricht, maybe he could have been more mature, but so could you by showing him the respect of not getting your marital advice from strangers on the internet - and if you admittedly give as good as you get, then you two sound quite right for another.

22

And most couples I know, don’t. In my experience it’s neither normal nor healthy. And neither is this:

Why don’t you? Is this really the kind of marriage you want?

23

In the history of our many years together, my husband and I have had occasion to be furious with each other. Absolutely furious. Sometimes justified, sometimes not.

Never, ever, has either of us made physical contact with the other to express this fury. Ever. It would be absolutely inconceivable for either of us to do so.

Children lash out because they haven’t learned or been taught to express their frustration verbally. As an adult, we’re expected (and expect each other) to ‘use our words’.

Your husband was in the wrong to respond violently towards you in order to express his feelings of frustration.

Also, this:

24

Maybe, maybe not - this rang a bell with me, and turns out she asked about divorce over a year ago. I would have gone with those instincts, considering how utterly uncaring he was about your feelings and opinions in that thread and now in this one. You realize he doesn’t give a shit if you’re in terror for your life, right? Even if he thinks you’re being irrational, he should at least try to calm you down, instead of hitting you hard as a way to get his beloved toy back.

If it were my husband and I - first of all, he doesn’t mess with his phone while driving, and he cares about driving safely. But if he ever intentionally hit me and it was hard enough to bring tears to my eyes, I would have severe problems with that, enough to have an ultimatum-style talk if he was not instantly remorseful, and even then there would need to be some serious discussion going on. My husband is on this board, too, and his reaction to reading Palo Verde’s thread was horror.

25

Given the stated facts, you were right he was wrong.

26

Maastricht, apart from the issue of right and wrong in this instance, you just don’t sound happy in this relationship. Busy and stressed doesn’t have to mean unhappy.

You’re in the Netherlands, right? Maybe the government would provide you a live-in marriage counselor or some such. :slight_smile: Seriously, though, given how unhappy you sound, you really might benefit from counseling, either together or just for yourself if he won’t go.

27

Just my two cents, but I’m very alarmed at your whole framework for looking at this - I read the linked thread expecting it to be TOTALLY different, based on your OP. I expected some sort of incident like the one you described, which I’d say isn’t healthy but isn’t OMG HOLY SHIT CALL THE COPS. And then I read it, and the guy got into such a rage he turned off the car when she was driving it on the highway. If that’s “oh everybody does that” then you really, really should consider evaluating your frame of reference.

28

Goddamnit my SO would never even dream of hitting me, nor I him. We’ve been together seventeen years this month and we have been so mad at each other we’ve wanted to kill each other but we would never even dream of impeding each other’s path. Why would you put up with someone punching you, ever?

If my SO ever punched me, say by accident, that would be the end of the fight because he would be so contrite and sorry he’d done so we’d make up. Same here.

Why people put up with this I’ll never understand.

29

In the other thread, the OP called the cops because her husband was blocking her way. When she tried to get by him, he kicked and pushed her. She mentioned the car incident as another example of her husband’s anger management issues.

30

This. All of it.

Hell, what he did (messing with phone while driving) was flat-out illegal lots of places. You should hear the earful my wife gets if she goes over the speed limit while I’m in the car, never mind anything as blatantly stupid as using a phone while driving. You always, always pull to the side to use your phone or reset the GPS - hell, even to change the radio station with the slidey knob, I’d pull to the side if I’m alone in the car. Anything that distracts the driver can kill you.

ETA: and if I were you, as soon as I got hit, the phone would have gone out the window onto the hard shoulder.

31

I agree with everything here. I almost never mess with my phone when driving, because I know it’s dangerous. But if it was some weird rare occasion and I was doing it and my passenger was freaking out, I would stop doing it out of consideration. Also just because I wouldn’t feel safe with the distraction of having a passenger in my car who was freaking out. Even if I was doing something fairly safe, like taking a sip of a Big Gulp all while keeping my eyes on the road, and my passenger was freaking out, I’d stop and just drive. Once I was no longer driving, I might have a conversation on why they were freaking out so bad. Then I would explain that I can drink a Big Gulp and drive safely, or I’d promise not to do the triggering behavior while they were riding with me, or I’d just not drive with them in my car again.

And I’m not married, but I think I’d feel the same way that Ferret Herder does about the hitting. It’s a serious issue and there would need to be a serious talk about it.

Like other people in the thread, I’m surprised at that sounding normal to you. I’ve heard lots of people talk or complain about their marriages, but hitting is never treated like a normal, not-a-big-deal thing. If it happens, it’s more like if an affair has happened- it’s a very serious issue, and there should be serious talks about why it happened and how it shouldn’t happen again, and maybe counseling would be involved. Do you have any stories your friends have told you about their spouses hitting them or vice versa? Maybe that will help the rest of us put this in more context.

32

Well, in terms of the argument, your husband was in the wrong.

I must concur that normal well-adjusted adults don’t hit. Heck, if my three-year-old was hitting other kids, although that’s quite a bit more normal, we would have a Talk about how Hitting Isn’t Right. Would you think it was okay for your son to go around hitting his friends?

That being said, what happened between you and your husband was the sort of thing where I would be completely shocked if my husband did that to me, but I certainly know people where if something like this happened in their relationship, I’d be all “eh, well, they’re just that way.”

What Palos Verdes described, something that endangered the life of both her and her family, is at least an order of magnitude worse. It’s weird to me that you think they’re both about equal in intensity. The kicking and shoving by itself is maybe not quite as bad, but coupled with the car incident I think is very troubling. ETA: that is, what Zsofia said.

33

The thing is, I don’t even know your husband, and I KNOW he would never stop fiddling with the phone on your say-so. In fact, if he was thinking of pulling over to mess with the phone, you saying he should would absolutely mean he would never do it. Just wondering… does he ever admit he is wrong and does he ever apologize? (MY exBF’s idea of an apology was “I’m sorry you feel that way.” :rolleyes:)

It’s not a question of who was right and who was wrong. What you did was guaranteed not to work (although I wouldn’t say you were *wrong *exactly). Getting physical to me is a deal-breaker. I’ve been married twice and in several long term Rs and grabbing stuff away (in anger) and/or hitting NEVER happened and I would never tolerate either one. I also NEVER name-call and have never used the F-word AT someone (although I use it liberally at the universe, inanimate objects, and events).

You two are treating each other badly. This is bad for you, bad for your husband, but DEADLY for your kid. He’s only four… don’t subject him to 12 more years of fights, disrespect, and wondering if you should divorce. Do you want to wait until he REALLY hits you and hurts you?

ETA. Re what Raspberry just said: I know there are couples who name-call and regularly say “fuck you” to each other and to them that’s normal. To me it’s barbaric and I could never live that way. Call me civilized.

34

As described in the OP, yes the husband was in the wrong to hit. No, you don’t need to immediately run for the divorce court.

Here’s something to think about. I believe most adults are capable of altering their behavior. I have seen it in action over my lifetime.

From what you describe I am deducing that you are both capable of letting things escalate - and then raised voices and hitting can occur. It becomes about impulses and reactions. These can be worked on.

I think you could have a calm conversation, not in the heat of a dispute, to say, “I think we both sometimes let things escalate, and I think we end up hurting each other and our relationship when that happens. I would like to try to work on that. Could we please both agree, as a starting point, step one, to not hit?” It’s important that this conversation doesn’t turn into an escalation. If it feels like it is turning into an escalation, just stop, just say, “That’s all I’m asking, that’s all.”

Start there. If you do get into a situation where someone wants to hit, let them say they feel like they want to hit - it’s OK to say that’s how they feel, but don’t act on it. That should give you the opportunity to step away, count to 10, - to try to de-escalate.

If you recognize that you are both capable of escalating, and work on it, maybe you would feel like you are making progress, and wouldn’t occasionally find that you feel like you need to divorce.

35

That sounds like a good idea. I think it’s important for him to know that the hitting was not acceptable, and you will not tolerate it again.

Him fiddling with the device while driving wasn’t cool, either - how would he feel if he caused serious harm to you, your child, or a stranger because of his unnecessary fiddling? That’s not just you being picky - there are very good reasons for the distracted driving laws.

36

I’ve grabbed the phone out of my husband’s hand as well, so I agree that it was the appropriate thing for you to do (though the point about possibly causing an accident is a valid one, YMMV).

But the thing that stands out is the hitting. Adults don’t hit. Having a physical reaction to an emotion is not appropriate and is childish. Hitting in anger or frustration is NOT normal behaviour for an adult.

My sister and her husband hit each other. It’s usually on the arm, and it often leaves bruises (on her, mostly, he seems to really wail on her). It’s in anger and usually accompanied by name calling. I talked to my sister a bit about this today (they had a hitting incident yesterday where the words out of his mouth were ‘I’m sorry you’re such a fucking bitch’ because she was asking for an apology) and she said that over Christmas, their 10 year old niece kicked my BIL in the ribs. His response? He hit her in the arm hard enough to make her cry. Acceptable? You bet your ass it isn’t.

37

Between these stories and the threads about “gee, really no means yes” I want to curl up and hide.

38

I know what you mean, IvoryTowerDenizen. I am so very thankful for my wonderful husband. Not that we haven’t had problems, but we certainly don’t hit each other.

39

I’m sorry I reacted to your thread inappropriately. I didn’t know it was in response to another thread I’d barely read (at the time) and since your OP was written in the present tense, I thought this had just happened to you. I was getting quite incensed until you posted when this had actually happened, and I was like Wha?

I should have been more sensitive though and asked the reason for the timing of the thread.

I’m sorry.

40

I wondered how long it would take for the “dump his ass and take the kids” types to show up.

Did you knot notice the “unemployed” part? As in “no independent income”? As in “in and out of court trying to enforce payments?” As in "no money for ‘in and out of courts’ either?

OK, deep breath. Until you have a reliable, independent source of home, food, clothes, books, transportation, etc., you are stuck.

Your options are “Go big or stay at home” - divorce him and start over, or find a path through the mess.

How likely are you to be able to produce an adequate income? Section 8 housing is filled up in large cities (and probably small ones ans well)
AFDC _ General assisstance - does this sound preferable to dealing with a man who hasn’t grown up enough to get past the “because I sid so and i’m bigger” phase (typically by age 10).

It all comes down to taking a realistic view of your options - people on the internet are notorious for “Let’s you and him fight” mentality - when you get 100 people to show up to provide you security while you move out, you know how much their support means.

My sister married an ass. She was a “pretty girl” so she never needed to do anything but spread her legs to get what she wanted. Eventually, he turned his vicious assholery on her and their son. She had played “I’ve got a big strong man - the hell with what people think of me” for 40 years. When it came to finding a place to hide, she found she had no friends and no options. I don’t know if she is even still alive.

For those "run away - anything is better than that, YOU ARE WRONG - I know of people with even fewer options.

OP - this may be a long haul - look into what is really available to you - make no assumptions.
If you want to leave, start getting your ducks in order.

Best wishes.

p.s. - Lorena Bobbitt was acquitted, despite confession. Hers was such a hellish life that a jury acquitted her out of sympathy.
How close, you “get out now” types, can you come to even imagining such a life?