It’s not that she won’t let me watch her masturbate, it’s more like she doesn’t know how. And when I try to stimulate her, I ask her where and try to bring her hand down to show me and she refuses.
Thanks for the advice, CrazyCatLady.
I love the anonymity of this board.
Kid_A, don’t ask her where or how, especially if she’s unresponsive. Just start with things that have been successful in the past (with her or other women), try a few different things if those don’t work. If she particularly likes something, I’m sure you’ll know about it - should be an automatic response, so her bringing-up doesn’t come into it.
Three words:
I think Dodson is a bit of a flake about politics and sociology, but she knows her stuff when it comes to sex. And, although it is clearly intended for women, it’s a good read for anybody. Heck, I picked it up from an ex-roommate (who’d bought it for his uptight, Greek Orthodox fiancee) and found it fascinating. But then, I do that with most literature that’s worth reading.
Although I grew up in a backwards, morally uptight (if blatently hypocritical) environment, I had the good fortune to have the opportunity to read though The Joy Of Sex, Kama Sutra, and various and sundry sex advice books (thanks, Dr. Ruth Westheimer…whatever happened to her, anyway?), and thus, while I am nearly a complete imbecile regarding the social aspects of dating and romantic relationships, I was well versed in the mechanics of sexual concourse; the result of which is that I don’t think I’ve disappointed any of the few women I’ve been with, and more to the point, I enjoy their pleasure as much as I enjoy my own. (More description is TMI, but let it be understood that my first priority is seeing to her enjoyment and comfort.)
As for Kid_A’s situation; while every woman is different, and no one approach/technique/strategy is going to work with every woman, might I suggest masturbating with her? If she’s not comfortable doing it by herself (in front of you or not) ask her to “help you” please her. (Personally, I love intertwining fingers while…well, you get the idea.) And continue to assure her that not only is anything she’s doing wrong, but that you really love it and that it makes you feel good, too. The evils of sex mentality can only be overcome by reinforcing the notion that it feels good for all parties and that it hurts none.
Ah, you young pups, the both of you. 
Good luck to you.
Stranger
sigh Me too.
You’d think that on-line dating thing would help, but…no. However, once in a while, some pernecious young lady will demonstrate enough forebearence to overcome my natural shyness and…wow.
Yes, that happened recently. No, it didn’t go anywhere. But I am (somewhat) recharged from the experience. Now, if I can just figure out this whole dating thing…argh!
Stranger
Two minutes? Jeez, that’s not even a breather.
But then (not to boast or anything) but the ex-gf complained once that I spent too long–not that it was unwanted, by any means, but it was cutting short actual sleeping time and making her tired at work.
sigh I miss that girl.
Stranger
I’m really not experienced enough to go around making general pronouncements, but I think this is the answer. If you ask me, pleasing a guy is fairly straightforward, but women are a bit more complicated. More hidden things, more work to do. Attitudes toward female sexuality being what they are, I think a lot of women don’t know what’s going on down there, and the guys don’t know either. On top of which, I don’t think male culture encourages us to care or pay that much attention to these things, the focus is more on getting laid in the first place and getting your rocks off.
Believe it or not, she has a spot on this great PBS kids show, Between the Lions. It’s cool in some of the ways that Sesame Street used to be (and it’s about libraries and librarians, whoo!). Anyway, she plays the Long Word Doctor. She teaches how to sound out long words so they aren’t intimidating. First time I saw it I laughed so hard I almost peed my pants; my neice and nephews had no idea why. 
If many men are considered bad lovers, it has a lot to do with their partner not telling them what they want.
I am a fabulous lover. Not only am I always satisfied, but I have the happiest bar of Irish Spring (with aloe) in all the land!
Too rough down there = bad.
I can’t remember where, but I read somewhere that one reason that men are poor lovers is that masterbation has conditioned them to finish quickly, as they only have a small amount of time to finish the deed. Also, finish quickly to minimize the chances of being caught. So for a man in his early teens until he finally becomes sexually active with others, sexual arousal is about getting it up and getting the deed done as soon as possible.
I think I read that in a women’s magazine or something like that. Anyway, that would explain the men who have trouble lasting very long. Not the men who do last but are poor at it. Or at least it could possibly be one explanation for some men.
Well, you’re describing two issues above. The first is careless lovers and the second is clueless lovers, with the latter being far preferable.
The answer to the first is, I believe as you speculated yourself, that no, they do not care. They’re selfish pigs in that area of their lives and likely in every other area of their lives too where other people (not just their wives, gfs or lovers are concerned). They want what they want when they want it, and the hell with anyone else. That sort of person (not just guys) doesn’t care about anyone else’s wants or needs, so why would sex be any different?
Now, the second sort, the just plain clueless sort. Well, if they do care, but just simply never learned, then they’re not really “bad” lovers, just untrained ones. Pick up a book, look and learn. Women’s bodies really aren’t all that complicated. And neither is communication. If they have the want to, then they’re halfway there already.
Sounds as if she’s incredibly shy. I was that way too when I was her age. I was a VERY lucky girl, in that my first “grown up” lovers really knew what they were doing. They encouraged me to communicate, but they knew what to do if I couldn’t. I too was raised in a somewhat sexually ignorant home. It wasn’t that sex was dirty, but it was certainly someone “one didn’t discuss” and it was only for when you were married, not dating or “living in sin”.
So it took me many years to learn to communicate. Actually what helped me, was message boards like this one. Once I was able to discuss things anonymously, I was able to go back to my boyfriend, and be a lot more communicative without being quite so shy.
One thing that helped me was to be able to talk about it after we were in bed, lights OUT (to prevent the beet red blushes and all from showing), then I gradually became more able to be matter of fact and lighthearted about it.
There are countless 'romantic advice" boards online. Perhaps she could try finding a small group or board and just lurk and post anonymously? It could help. Also, rather than try to have her tell you what she wants in bed, in the act (this was just WAY too excrutiatingly embarrassing for me at that time in my life too).
Try to pick a neutral time to talk about it. Maybe pick up some books that she can read. Barbara DeAngelis has some good ones about sex. At any rate, pick a time to talk when she can feel totally comfortable (maybe in the dark, when you’re getting ready for sleep, but not sex), perhaps when it’s dark and quiet, and she knows it’s just the two of you.
Another favorite time of mine was when my bf and I were driving somewhere. He had to keep his eyes on the road, and not on me, so I felt less embarrassed to discuss intimate things with him then.
hope that helps…best of luck.
Oh, if she’s anything like me? Once that dam does break…hold on to your hat
There have been some good points here.
The young 22 y/o who is not comfortable with her sexuality–that was me(I’m not Catholic and wasn’t raised particularly strictly). My suggestion is to seduce the hell out of her. I hate this word, but TONS of foreplay–I mean TONS of it. She has to be aroused and recognize that before she can start putting the other pieces together. I don’t mean partially clothed/naked foreplay–I mean caressing her neck and hair etc early on in the evening. Soon she’ll get that X makes her feel Y and you’ll be further down the road a piece. good luck.
I have so many thoughts on this subject that I fear this will be a novella.
I wish that more men took to heart that every woman is different. We all may have the same equipment for the most part–but it responds differently. I liken it to different makes of cars–you wouldn’t drive a sports car the same way you drive an SUV, right? Respect the variety–and enjoy it. And I wish that guys (painting with a broad brush here, sorry) did think or expect RL sex to follow a porn script. RL lovemaking can be funny, intense, mellow, take 2 minutes, take 2 hours–porn is to RL sex what Hostess fruit pies are to homemade pies.
The one-note approach to sex I blame on porn. I am 42 and have had a few partners (before marriage) and only 1 of them did not expect sex to follow some type of unacknowledged script: beginning, middle, end-usually based on HIS arousal, penetration and climax arc. True, this was college and maybe that is the nature of the beast–young guys w/o experience, or porn as their only gauge.
Now we get personal (sorry).
I dislike oral sex. No, I am not repressed; no, I am not a prude. I don’t care for it. I don’t mind giving it, but if offered, I will politely turn you down. It doesn’t do anything for me. I hope this helps end the myth that all women hunger for it.
Communication only works when the partners listen and act on the other’s expressed desires. What do you do when offers to please and desires are expressed and not attended to?
Now we get really personal. I have tried over the years, to get my husband to understand my sexual needs(more my arousal needs, really). Nothing works. After 17 years of marriage, I have come to the conclusion that he just doesn’t care about them. Before you all think that these are deviant in nature, I like the nape of my neck to be caressed and kissed and my long hair stroked. Oh, and kiss me–it would help if you looked at me, too. Any of those listed would be good.
Sadly, (and I really don’t know if this will be the last straw kind of thing) my requests for the above are not respected. He has told me that we have been together too long for him to act like that. So, he is not willing to “prime the pump” and it has a negative impact on us. I have asked him what we could do differently, if there is something he wants and we’re not doing it–but he does not share those thoughts with me. He doesn’t say “no, we’re great or it’s just fine.”, either.
Sorry to digress into personal issues. This thread really struck a nerve with me.
As I grew more comfortable with my body and its responses and I also grew more assertive–I have been able to increase my pleasure w/o the above steps.
but I do miss them terribly. So, I guess I put my husband in the selfish category. 
It takes two to tango.
And a band helps.
HIJACK.
eleanorigby raises a point. I’ve dated a girl who didn’t get off on oral sex, and in fact didn’t like it - but I always chalked that up to the fact that she’s hardcore submissive, and doesn’t really enjoy anything sweet in bed to begin with.
Lately, I’ve been chatting up a girl from school who doesn’t seem to have that particular kink, or at least not to the degree that Amanda did, but she mentioned casually the other day that she hates oral sex.
I’ll cop to my lack of experience, but oral sex has always been the last round of foreplay for me (and it’s always worked nicely as the transition). I’m sort of clueless as to how to make the transition when oral sex is counterproductive. Any advice?
How bloody hard is that to do?
If this were The Pit I’d have some other words, but if he can’t fulfill that simple request, you two have some more serious issues than sexual compatibility. Hezuuz, I can’t believe some people in their reluctance to put for the bare minimum of effort into anything.
Stranger
Eleanor’s got some very, very good points. If you wait until you’re in the bedroom to start with the foreplay, you are so far behind the game it’s not even funny. Make her feel like the most beautiful, important, sensual woman in the world, and NOT just when you’re trying to get some. That’s going to build up her base level of desire and make things much, much easier for both of you. If just being around you makes her weak in the knees, think about where a little concerted effort will get you.
That is sweet of you, Stranger -and much appreciated. I would agree with you about the bigger issues–funny how behavior in bed can be a metaphor for behavior in life, eh? I am not sure what I’ll do–obviously, the situation is more complicated than just sex, but whatever it is, it won’t be done without a great deal of thought (there are 3 kids involved) and decision on my part. It’s not all his fault-perhaps I haven’t been persistent enough.
sorry for the hijack.
And for the answer to those who don’t enjoy or want oral sex–each situation is unique. Alot depends on if you two are already having intercourse (I come from a generation where oral sex was considered majorly heavy petting/making out–but not sex). IIWY-I would ask her. Is she OK with this, with that, with the shirt off, the pants off, but not the panties etc. And remove (or have her remove) your same article of clothing–so she doesn’t feel so vulnerable. Stop for a few and just enjoy the moment(easier said than done, I know!). I don’t see an issue with going from ahem-“digital stimulation” to actual penetration–IF that is where your relationship is. But, that’s just me.
<dons old maiden aunt hat> “fer heaven’s sake, just practice safe sex, whatever you do, sonny!” <hat off>
Frankly, in a weird way-oral sex is more intimate than intercourse. I don’t like it because no matter who gives it to me-- I end up with a yeast infection. Sorry–TMI!
Re the women not telling the man what they want thing, I have a good (female) friend of many years (30+) standing who once told me that many men take hints they should do something different as criticism and that they react with anger. I don’t know how common that is, but I do know many women won’t make suggestions for whatever reason.
The same woman also told me that she prefers BIG ones but that most men with BIG ones are terrible lovers. I believe that was mentioned earlier in this thread.
I’ve always found it strange and more than a little frustrating that she will discuss very intimate details with me yet we’ve never been lovers. Maybe she enjoys teasing me?