My ex-wife is a nag.
My current SO is a conversationalist.
Therein lies the difference…
Through it all, however, I have reemained a cunning linguist… 
Yer pal,
Satan
Well, Mr. Zambezi, someone who lives with a person who considers their opinions to be “stupid” and who and who finds discussion about her feelings to be annoying and trivial can perhaps be excused for being a little testy from time to time. 25? More like 2, I think. No, I take that back. My two year old has much more consideration and empathy for other people.
Please excuse the typos, etc.
cher, some opinions or feeling are stupid. Not all, but some. If a person is being irrational, then why should those irrational feelings be supported. The toilet seat being an issue because a future child we might have might drown…c’mon. Let me see you support that one.
I have seen many times when guys get very jealous and are chastised by women because their feelings are irrational.
In your world, I suppose that any feeling I have, no matter how blown out of proportion or irrational, should be respected?
Well, I am a male, so I guess that I can’t be irrational. A woman of course is justified in her every feeling and triviality.
What I am hearing is, “we nag because we are doing it for your own good. We nag because you are all slugs and need to be told what to do. We nag because every little idea we come up with deserves your sincere respect regardless of whether or not it makes a lick of sense.”
I haven’t really heard a good explanation or a refutation that women nag. So far Jett is the only one who has made any sense.
I wonder if the genders were turned around if the response would be the same. Methinks that there be a double standard here.
Dewaholic, You are wrong. Generalizations are necesary. If generalizartions can’t be made, then we can’t argue about more than one person at a time.
I can’t generalize “women don’t have penises,” because some do?
You said
which is a generalization. See how hard it is
Okay, here’s a generalization. When women go into a marriage, they do not expect it to be like getting a new roommate–i.e., do whatever you want and I’ll do whatever I want. They expect it to be a partnership, with more-than-common courtesy extended by each partner. Leaving the toilet seat up drives her nuts. Why? Who knows–personally, it bugs me because I don’t like to have to turn on the light in the middle of the night to avoid falling in. She asked you not to do it. You blew her off. She asked you again, to emphasize that, yes, this really does bother her. You blew her off. Well, okay, he won’t do it just to be nice to me, so I guess I’ll have to try to invent some important-sounding reason.
I am making all this up, because, frankly, I don’t know any women who nag, and because my SO and I are happy to indulge each others preferences for things like toilet seats and household chores. I know women who have to remind their full-grown husbands to go to the doctor and not to eat another helping of pie–my diabetic dad is still alive because of this. If you want to call that nagging, okay.
If your wife doesn’t act like one of the guys, it’s not because she is a woman, it’s because you are her husband.
OK, cher, that is understandable.
I do want to point out one thing. you said
Using “have to” betrays a lot. Perhaps they do not “have to” do anything. If you feel that they have to, then you believe that the men would neglect themselves (possibly kill themselves) if the women did not ride them.
IF you believe this on any level, well then, it is easy to see that you are looking down on men and assuming that they are children who can’t take care of themselves. Believe me, we notice this prejudice just as a woman knows when a man is looking down at her.
When someone feels that you treating them as an inferior, their “suggestions” and “reminders” are not well taken.
Perhaps my question shoudl have been “why do women feel superior to men?”
Hey, this is an offical nag:
Men & Women: When you finish using the toilet, place both the seat and the lid down before flushing. This reduces the amount of fecal matter and urine spray that will be wafted into the air and settle on your toothbrush which is placed conveniently near the sink which is near the toilet! BASIC HYGEINE, not an irrational notion, ok?
Now, I have to leave this fascinating discussion because I have to go to the old maid’s quilting party
When I said “have to” I did mean that if the women in question did not speak up and remind them, then the men in question would never go to the doctor and would not monitor their own diets. In my dad’s case, he would be in serious trouble. I’m not sure how people get into this kind of dynamic, and I agree with you that it does infantilize the man. I don’t want to go all Freudian about this, but many men do seem to rely on their wives to take care of their daily maintenance in the same ways they relied on their mothers. Women may do the same thing in ways that I’m not seeing. I think one reason my SO doesn’t do this so much is because he was raised by a single mom who relied on him to take care of a lot of these things himself.
More generally, though, I think people, not just men, like to be nagged in some ways. ("I’m not being a wimp going to the doctor–my wife MADE me do it.) That’s probably how it usually goes.
I see it. My cousin and I were talking about this. (for the record, he and his wife are model spouses and fantastic people.) Our wives do not like to answer the phone or deal with:
a) salespeople
b) banks
c) insurance agents
d) repair people
When it comes to getting into financial matters or matters that will involve conflict, women tend to see it as “men’s work.” Which makes them fall into the “I am just a girl” mode. I hate that as much as the henpecking.
This is where I see a double standard.
I doubt that the men mentioned above really would have let themselves die for lack of “reminders.” [related question:How often were the women going to the dr. for non OB/Gyn check ups?] Though, the men may have gotten a little fat.
Wow, can you imagine if I told my wife not to eat something because it would make her fat and damage her health.
feminists: “are you saying that a womans weight affects how loveable she is?”
My Wife: “are you saying I am getting fat and you wont love me anymore?”
Whoo boy. It would be too much trouble to nag her about such things.
Cher, I forgot to mention, I pretty much always had to take care of myself, and I still do, which is why I resent it. I think the dynamic is carved into our culture and the man’s ability to take care of himself is entirely irrelavant.
A man can get away with spitting on the baseball diamond but not in the board room. A woman can nag and a man can’t.
I know that my husband understands that if he continually eats that third piece of pie, there’s a good chance that I may not ride him
Honestly, I do see a bit of self-righteous “if he does things his own way he’ll kill himself” stuff and although it sounds haughty, it could be true. It’s difficult to save someone from themself. I’d certainly not want to rationalize sinking to a regular nagging schedule to save a creature with no sense. I insist on having a man that’s smarter than that to begin with.
Some mornings, it’s just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
– Emo Phillips
Oh, I’ve known a number of male nags. The worst was the husband of a college friend of mine who was always at her about something. I remember having them to dinner once and serving asparagus. Rather than complimenting me on it, he turned to her and said “See, nice and crisp. This is the way it’s supposed to be cooked. Why can’t you do it this way?” I’m surprised he still has all his teeth. Interestingly, he became much less of a nag after they had kids.
By the way–the number one topic for the male nags of my acquaintance is their SO’s appearance.
Have you ever considered that some people have so many things to worry about and think about (i.e. job related things, money, etc.) that they need a little reminder from their SO once in awhile.
When my boyfriend reminds me that I have been forgetting to refill a prescription, or when I remind him to take medicine it isn’t because we think the other is a booger picking moron who can’t think for themselves; we accept that we were preoccupied with other things and needed that little reminder. We appreciate the other for looking out for us; it makes me feel cared for. I’m not saying we would have died because we wouldn’t have remembered, because I would have gotten to it eventually. I am simply saying that it isn’t nagging, it is just helping your SO, and thereby making their life just a little easier.
I still think you have too quickly dismissed the reminding-because-we-care theory. And have you ever considered showing your wife the courtesy of putting the seat down for her? Maybe if you thought about her enough to do that for her, she wouldn’t nag, and she might find a way to repay the courtesy (perhaps adding oil to her own car instead of asking you to do it).
However I take issue with what you have said thus far about gender roles, and even the example I used above. I have never considered cooking and dishes a man’s job, just as I have never considered laundry and vacuuming a woman’s job. I look forward to having my SO split jobs with me based on what one enjoys doing and does well.
If a person is so damn incapable of running their own lives that they need a man to change their oil or fix a flat, or a woman to cook and clean, then they really don’t deserve another person. That isn’t a relationship, that is a handy man or maid who you say you love. Expecting a person to do a chore because they just should is sexist and rude. Knowing that you both need to work together to get things done, and thereby designating jobs based on what one can or wants to do is only fair.
“I celebrate myself, and sing myself, and what I assume you shall assume, for every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you.” --Whitman
I’ve seen those guys who are always picking on their women about clothes and weight. I always thought that it bordered on abuse. In fact, I always suspected that the guys were wifebeaters.
But almost every relationship I have witnesses has a woman who is much, much more sensitive than the man. I really think that it is a gender issue. Women tend to believe that only their constant vigilence will save us from our manly ways.
Funny because women seem to like guys who are confident, self sufficient and assertive. Then when they get them, want them to be pliable and willing to shed their ways. Hey, you can’t have both.
My Mom is the queen of this. SHe looooves military career men. But wants them to share a lot of emotion and be very mushy. “I want you to be a big strong tough warrior, who is a soft gently lamby-kins with lots of gushy emotions.” Hasn’t ever worked for her. If you love the Marlboro man, you gotta put up with the smokes.
Kind of like when women are expected to be career women , and mothers, and sex pots, and …so on. Sometimes you can only be one thing.
Nope, he wasn’t a wifebeater, just a garden variety nag. I do agree to a point about the abuse, though. The thing that has always struck me about the male nags I know is their willingness to do it in public. My mother is my dad’s personal health coach, as I mentioned, but I can’t ever recall her getting on his case at a restaurant or other public dinner. Now afterwards…
Do you really think it’s healthy to be “only one thing?” I think I’d be legitimately concerned if I married someone and found that they couldn’t stop being a mom or a sexpot or an executive or a soldier, or whatever, for at least some of the time. I don’t think your mom’s expectation was necessarily unrealistic at all. All the military people I know are huge mushballs about their families. Maybe I’m not picturing the type of man you meant, though.
Mr. Zambezi–I’d missed your last post on the previous page.
A couple of things. I don’t think what you described is a double standard. I think most couples fall into a pattern of having each partner take care of certain types of tasks. Often they fall along gender lines, but not always. I find it just too wearing to be constantly negotiating about who is going to do what. In the case of dealing with conflict, it’s more a personality thing in the couples I know–whichever person is more exacting and likes to do battle more is the one who handles it. And believe me, it’s not always the man.
It reminded me of a couple of funny cases though. My mom is great with math and worked as an accountant. My dad is a word man and terrible with math. Guess who did the taxes at our house every year? Well, finally, after about 40 years, they wised up and let my mom do them and everyone was much happier.
In another couple (same generation) the wife cooked dinner every night. She wasn’t a horrible cook, but was universally acknowledged to be pretty uninspired. Finally, when the last of seven kids left the nest, she said, never again. The husband took over and has the time of his life messing around in the kitchen. His deviled lobster is to die for.
Oh and, finally, my mom never said a word to my dad about his diet or weight until he was diagnosed with diabetes.
I think it’s funny that you mention dealing with finances as a thing men do–in my experience, most of the time, women deal with bill paying, budgeting, etc. I NEVER let my ex husband deal with money or the rent would have never gotten paid!
I can’t stand it; the guilt and pressure are too great. This violates the Woman’s Oath and means a death sentence, but the truth must be told…
Yes!, we women are totally focused on men every empty, frivolous moment of our useless lives. We know we’re not as bright, logical or well-meaning as men. So all we can do is watch for our cues, every second, from the men we both admire and resent.
::sobs pitifully in remorse::
Yes, it’s true! We manipulate, nag and belittle men out of twisted envy. We see a strong secure man and the vile requirments of The Oath kick in: stomp the ego, emasculate, annoy, and try to infantilize males until they are reduced to our fussy, fluffy, meaningless level.
:: ominous but feminine pounding at door ::
We want all men to be just like Martha Stewart! You think her sucess is a fluke? It’s the Woman’s Conspiracy that made her a gazillionaire, capable of funding a series of reducation camps for men. It will mean chemical castration, with men knitting pink mohair cups for their sad, shrivelled gonads.
If only we had lives ourselves–independent standards, goals, needs; but alas, all we can do is react to men, nitpicking and nagging.
Shit, this makes me glad I’m single.
Veb
Okay, I understand that, but how 'bout using words like “some” or even “most”, instead of speaking for an entire gender?
Sinsapple hit the nail on the head when she said:
Sins, it sounds like you have the same kind of relationship with your SO that I have with mine. Isn’t it wonderful to be in an adult relationship?
Mr.Z, I also agree with Sinsapple when she said you seem to be dismissing the “reminding because we care” theory. You just continue spouting generalizations about how women want a man who’s strong, but then want to mold him. That’s bullshit in my case, so quit lumping “all” women into one category.