Sheesh, I had no idea this would provoke such volatile responses.
Don’t really know where to start…
Ok, first of all, I haven’t been pestering these guys to be my friend. With the 1st guy, I’ve left him a couple of messages asking how he is and asking him to call me - same thing I’d do with any friend, male or female, that I hadn’t heard from in a while. With the 2nd guy, well, we work together so it’s more awkward. I tried to have a quiet “are we ok?” talk with him and his response was a “Yeah. 'Course”, before walking off. He’s barely spoken to me since. Since then I haven’t tried anything else. Hardly amounts to me forcing my friendship on them does it?
I did state already that I thought we’d moved past any issues about about the friendship/relationship thing. With the first guy it was over a year ago that he raised the issue, with the 2nd guy it was about six months ago. I honestly thought we’d developed good, genuine friendships by now. I do feel very hurt and angry that they may have just been hanging around pretending to be my friend in the hope that eventualy I’d sleep with them.
Never, in all the time I’ve known these guys, have they ever paid for me, nor have I expected them to. When we go out, I always pay my own way. Nor have I ever told them anything about my sex life - I have my girlfriends for that! And yes, sometimes they’ve provided a shoulder for me to cry on, just as I’ve done the same for them when they’ve needed it. What can I say, I thought that’s what friendship was about.
I think I agree with those of you who’ve said to give them time. Hopefully they’ll be able to deal and come around, if not - well, they obviously weren’t the men I thought they were, and not the type I want as friends anyway.
OK, I’m going to try to avoid using the “friends” word because it’s so loaded, and men and women don’t always define it the same way.
First of all, let’s put it on the table that all men want to have sex. Het men want to have sex with women. Homo men want to have sex with men. Various sorts of perverts want to have sex with doorknobs and farm animals and things I just don’t want to know about. But take it as a given that ALL men want to have sex. If they don’t, there is something VERY wrong with them. Now, if men were simply dogs they’d let their feelings run riot and in addition to humping the objects of their affection they’d also be humpting arms, legs, and the furniture, but human males are, obviously human with the usual veneer of civilization. They do not screw all the time, and most have learned to handle rejection of their desire to screw in what we call “gentlemanly” fashion, in part because it cuts down on fist-fights and frying-pans-to-the-head.
Now, human men being human, they also like to hang around people of both genders who have a common interest (like you both work at the same place, or you both like to ride bikes, or something). Humans are social animals and enjoy company. In this sense men and women can be “platonic friends”. But it has been my experience that there is always sexual tension. Both parties may suppress or deny it, in order to enjoy the social interaction of their mutual interest, but it’s there.
However, men still want to have sex. It appears to me that your two gentlemen friends were enjoying your company based on some mutual interest, while hoping for sex. Since you weren’t attached, they were undoubtably hoping that when you did seek attachment they would be the Chosen One. This doesn’t make them creeps, it makes them men.
Then you get a new boyfriend. And it’s not one of them. They’re disappointed. They lost the Race To Have Sex With Jennyrosity. It hurts. It does NOT mean they weren’t your friends, or they were insincere in their like of you and your company, but the “screw everything in sight” part of them is hurt right now. And it has nothing to do with maturity. Men are hard-wired to want to screw everything they find even mildly attractive as many times as they can. That doesn’t mean that’s the only thing men want, just that it’s a very powerful urge innate in men, it can’t be removed. It like criticizing a woman for having a clitoral orgasm instead of a vaginal one.
Give them some credit. They were very honest and up front about their desire to bang you. They were letting you know that they hoped to be the Chosen One when the time came.
If you bounced around them saying “I have a new boyfriend! I have a new boyfriend!” it only made it worse. If a man has confided to you that he wants to bang you it means he wants to bang you more than the other women he hasn’t told that. In such cases, news of a new Chosen One/boyfriend should be given quietly, without great demonstrations of joy, because it will only hurt him more. While a part of him may be happy for your happiness, a good portion of him still wants to screw your brains out.
Even if you did not intend to reject them, they still feel rejected. Yes, it does hurt. That doesn’t mean YOU should feel bad for choosing someone else. It does mean that they may not want to see you for awhile - or ever again. If you care about them, let them go and find their happiness elsewhere. Better for them to be absent than present and angry, accusatory, abusive, or displaying stalker behavior.
There may have been some miscommunication on both sides, but mostly I think you tripped over a genuine man/woman difference here. No, I don’t think it’s a matter of “giving them time”. It’s unlikely they’ll “come around”. That doesn’t mean their friendliness was insincere - it just means, as I said, they feel disappointed and rejected. But that’s life - if more than one man competes for the same woman, only one wins. They know this. And they’re being gentlemen for avoiding the situation, rather than torturing themselves by staying in a situation where they feel rejected, which could lead only to bitterness.
Now, things might change - if one of them gets a girlfriend and feels stable in that relationship he might come back to being friendly with you, sharing a mutual interest, etc. Because his rejection has been replaced by an acceptance. But don’t count on it. Enjoy the good memories of social interaction you had with these men and move onward.
Well, don’t become a bitter hag. But you do need to develop a better understanding of men. Men are not women with a beard and a penis tacked on as an afterthought. Yes, they’re human, but just as adults and children see the world differently, react differently to the same situation, and so forth, women and men likewise can look at the exact same situation and come to completely different conclusions and at times can have very different emotional reactions.
I hang around socially with a LOT of men. They are my (loaded word) “friends”. We share a mutual interest. We respect each other. But a lot of this is possible because I am in a long term relationship (a marriage, actually) and I’ve made it very clear I’m loyal to one man in sexual matters. Since men do want their mates to be loyal, this is something the “screw everything in sight” part of them has some understanding of. Loyalty is good in a potential mate. But I don’t kid myself. If something happened to the husband there are at least three of these guys I’d have to beat off with a stick once I became available. Unfortunately, I’m much more attracted to certain other guys (because, yes, even though I’m happily married I do look at other men). This is why human relationships are sooooo complex and messy.
I also do NOT discuss my sex life with them. At all. Men do not want to hear about other men scoring with a woman they can’t have.
As far as vibes - yes, you do have to be concious of how men see the world. When engaged in this mutual interest activity I dress (old fashioned word) modestly. Of course, they’ll never forget I’m a woman. I’m sure my various bits get looked at fairly regularly. But they’re discreet about that, and I don’t dress like a slut. If I’m in a committed relationship I shouldn’t be dressing like I’m cruising for a mate - it confuses the guys on a sub-concious level. There are other examples I could go one with, but that’s the one I seem to see women screw up the most. Don’t dress like a slut unless you’re looking to get laid, even if that’s the “fashionable” look. Which is not to imply that’s what you did, I’m just using it as an example of something that causes confusion between men and women.
Most of that actually made a lot of sense. Thanks, Broomstick.
What in the world are you talking about?
You too.
Yeah, OK. Whatever. Sorry if I manage to stay friends with guys whom I’ve either rejected, or we’ve tried the entire relationship thing and it didn’t work. Guess I’m the statistical anomaly eh?
I never said anything about “men still wanting you”. Darlin’.
Sorry, my mistake - obviously comprehension isn’t one of my strong points today.
in relation to the OP, I’ve been on the recieving end of this, it really isn’t nice. Because you didn’t romantically want to be involved with the two of them, they I bet they had there stomachs churning when they heard the news that you had got a boyfriend.
Just think about how you would feel if it happened to you, and then you will understand 
No…so long as you understand that your perception of the situation might not exactly match up with that of your male ‘friends.’
I think that much of this thread has dealt with the total miscommunication and resulting misconceptions that result from the fundamental differences with which men and women view relationships.
That looks like something that came straight from a pulp psychology self-help book.
My experience is men don’t necessary want to screw the brains out of their women friends if given a chance. Sure, sexual tension may be there once, but it usually fades as time wears on.
That seems to be too simplistic. Certainly, sex is an essential part of any relation, but it’s not the dominant part. Odd that it may seem, many men actually want to connect with their SO on a mental and emotional level.
IMO, they hurt because they lost the Race to be the SO of Jennyrosity, whom they think (or at least thought) to be special.
Okay…now, aside from the physical/romantic intimacy, what’s so special about being Mr. Jennyrosity that these guys are not doing/being now? Going out together:check. Hanging out casually:check. Sharing secrets:check. Helping each other through emotional hardship:check.
It’s like the old saw- in grade school, I learned that the Civil war was about slavery. In High School, I learned that the Civil War was about a complex set of economic, social, and political issues. In College, I learned that the Civil war was about slavery.
Yes, the answer is simple…unless you’re trying to explain it in a foreign language.
Fish, that’s pretty much exactly what being a woman’s friend means. (Except for the paying for her dinner and tickets, and even female friends treat each other once in a while, just to do something nice for one another.) We hang out together when neither of us has plans with our respective mates. We talk about stuff that’s bothering us. We lend each other things, and give each other advice.
And really, isn’t all the stuff you’ve described (again, minus the paying for her stuff) pretty much how you treat your guy friends? You talk. You go out together when neither of you has a date. You lend each other stuff, and give each other advice. You watch movies and play video games.
You’re doing the “just friends” thing right. No, I’m not just stroking your delicate little male ego. She wants to carry on what you two have together, but she doesn’t want to turn it into a dating scenario. In other words, let’s still talk and hang out together and enjoy each other’s company, but keep your hands and your lips to yourself. It seems pretty simple and straightforward to me, so why does it seem to be so hard for guys to understand?
There’ve been some pretty strong opinions in this thread, which leads me to believe that this phenomenon is so widespread that everyone’s been on one end or the other at some point.
I understand that Jennyrosity’s situation was such that she thought all involved had reached an understanding and everything could move ahead. Everyone seemed to agree they would like to remain good friends. And in defense of the guys, I’ll venture the opinion that, at the time, they believed they were okay with the situation. However, at that time, they had not been presented with the version of Jennyrosity (is it okay if I just call you Jenny for the rest of the post?) that included the boyfriend feature. When presented with the stark reality of this, they may have realized that, no, come to think of it, I can’t do this. Nobody likes to be reminded that they’re not good enough, and speaking from a guy’s point of view, that’s exactly what the feeling is. He is good enough. I am not. That may not be how Jenny sees it, but I will bet the farm that’s how they see it. And they see it every time they see her.
The alternate theory is they were only hanging around to screw her senseless. This actually probably a simplified and extreme version of what they really wanted, which did involve sex (because who doesn’t want to have sex), but also involved genuine interest in a relationship with Jenny-the situation described in Urban Ranger’s last paragraph. There is a fair amount of vitriol aimed at this stance, because the target of affection feels lied to. And they have been. But it’s not easy to erase feelings of that sort, especially if they’ve been festering for a while. The guys hung around because they wanted to be a bigger part of her life, and hoped that, at some point, she’d be willing to consider a relationship with them. It may be a lie, but it wasn’t one they used to intentionally hurt her. Many people (and I’m not singling Jenny out here, as she seems to be gaining a good understanding of the other side of the fence now) who’ve had this done to them focus on the betrayal they feel because of these hidden feelings, oftentimes overlooking the fact that there’s hurt coming from the betrayer as well.
Angua has given us a personal case wherein she was able to overcome her feelings to someone who was foremost her friend. I applaud her personal strength, honestly. Her case is different than most men’s, though, or least hers is much different than any of mine have been. Many times, a guy befriends a girl somewhat on accident, and I’ll tell you why.
If a total stranger came up and asked you out, would you say yes?
If you knew someone vaguely (i.e., a workmate, friend of a friend), and the first conversation they had with you opened with, “Would you like to go out?”, would you say yes?
I’m guessing most you would not. Guys know this, and we know and understand that people should at least have some sort of working knowledge of each other before anything as intimate as dating starts. So we try to arrange some non-threatening meetings/activities so that girls can see what we’re about, and conversely what they’re about. And here’s where the problems start. I have a feeling that women know pretty quickly how attracted to the guy they are, if they’re attracted at all. But I think the women may not realize what the guy is really doing with the hanging out stuff; he’s trying to show you how great a guy he really is. The guys don’t realize that there’s a good chance it doesn’t matter how great they are. If the women aren’t attracted to you, they’re not attracted to you. Period. But because they’re not hip to what’s basically the guy’s long-winded “How about a date?”, they keep doing the friend things with the guy. The guy subsequently realizes that he’s dropped the ball somewhere along the line and is now stuck either suffering it out when the girl gets a boyfriend or looking like a dick to someone he really liked by snuffing a friendship.
This problem will not be resolved until humanity develops ESP. But I’ve seen a lot of claims that “It’s their problem, not hers.” Which is correct. But there seems to be some resentment towards the guys when they back out of the friendship, because the woman feels as though she’s being made to suffer for her choice of mate. I would hope those same people can realize the guy is suffering as well, and they’re dealing with “their problem” they way they see fit. While some may be able to deal with the disappointment, as Angua did, others can’t. It doesn’t mean they’re assholes, and it doesn’t mean they consciously had an ulterior motive in the friendship. It just means they can’t deal with the situation. I don’t believe it’s selfish to eliminate from one’s life something that causes one pain; if these parties were in a relationship, I highly doubt we’d be recommending one stay with the other so the other doesn’t feel loss. Why do we do it when talking about these friendships?
In the end, it comes down to one question: do you think the guy was ever truly interested in being your friend? If yes, then people should realize that things like this are tough when you’re on the outside looking in, and we all need time to deal with it. If you really want to keep the friendship, give him time to get over you, and try to remember that he’s doing this for you as much as himself, as you probably wouldn’t want to hang around a mopey bastard.
If you don’t think he really wanted to be your friend, that he was only in it for a slap and tickle then why give a shit at all? Good riddance.
Flipsyde,
I think you have a really well written, insightful post. I have a question about something you wrote:
But but but!
So often here, I read posts by men that go on about how if the girl doesn’t meet the physical attractiveness standard that the poster has set, then it ain’t gonna happen no how, no way. It seems like men should be extremely familiar with that concept. My perception is that in this case you are arguing that men should be able to show that they’re “good enough” based on their personalities. I applaud that notion, but find it a little … naive?
Anyhow, thanks for contributing to the mellow yet constructive discussion aspect of this topic, makes it more fun to read.
Flipsyde,
I think you have a really well written, insightful post. I have a question about something you wrote:
But but but!
So often here, I read posts by men that go on about how if the girl doesn’t meet the physical attractiveness standard that the poster has set, then it ain’t gonna happen no how, no way. It seems like men should be extremely familiar with that concept. My perception is that in this case you are arguing that men should be able to show that they’re “good enough” based on their personalities. I applaud that notion, but find it a little … naive, maybe? It sounds like something of a double standrd as in it’s okay for dudes to make their choices based on attractiveness, but not okay for women to do the same.
Anyhow, thanks for contributing to the mellow yet constructive discussion aspect of this topic, makes it more fun to read.
Thanks for the compliment, White Ink.
As for your question-if I implied that, it was a mistake. When I was a frustrated, virginal youth, I am sure I felt I deserved a girlfriend, because I was exactly what they said they wanted; funny, sensitive, treated them well, wouldn’t dream of chating on them. It wasn’t supposed to matter that I was chubby and non-athletic, they were girls! But all I ever ended up with in high school was “friends” (and you’ll notice the distinct lack of the “with benefits” addendum there).
When I began to look at reasons why I wasn’t dating, I reached a lot of constructive conclusions. Most of them were about myself, but one that’s stuck with me is that I needed to look at things from the other person’s point of view; try to put yourself in their shoes kind of thing. And when I did, I noticed that there were girls who, while they seemed to have a lot of the stuff I wanted, just weren’t cutting it for some reason. Maybe they weren’t outgoing enough, or maybe I didn’t think I could stand to be around them in long enough doses to actually have a relationship. Whatever it was, when I realized I was guilty of doing the same things I was decrying were unfair, I simply reevaluated how I was approaching things. As a long ago poster once pointed out, the males guilty of this “She always dates assholes, never gives good guys a chance” stance are usually just as guilty on the reverse; they’re not trying to date the mousy, maybe overweight girl who’d be more than willing to hang out with them. They really just want the hot, popular girl because everyone else wants her.
That’s really just a long way of saying that, no, I firmly believe people are going to dig who they dig, and that’s simply the end of it. You can’t whine, wheedle, trick, or argue someone into wanting to be with you, naked or otherwise. And really, why would you want to? I mean, if you really want them, you want them to want you back, right? You just have to suck it up and move on. But, as I said above, the same holds true for a friendship; if a person decides they can’t be your friend, for whatever reason, it’s unrealistic to expect them to place your feelings over theirs if it hurts them to do so.
Uh. Wow, I’m a long winded bastard.
Maybe, but you’re also pretty much spot-on, in my opinion.
Wow, Flypsyde, I think you’ve got it! This is exactly what I think, put a bit more eloquently than I would have said it.
I think men and women are a lot alike, really. It’s just specific blindness on each side’s part that leads them to think of the other sex as somewhat alien and unknowable. All of the jokes and sexism mask the underlying fragility and vulnerability of the egos on each side.
All people can be mean, cruel, nice, loving, indifferent, idiots, etc, whether they are male, female, white, black, Jewish, Catholic, morons, geniuses, homosexuals, bigots or any other variation you can think of. People are people, and nothing can really be generalized about any arbitrary group.
When you draw a line and say “these type of people carry these attributes” then you are devaluing others as well as yourself.
Try to think of the other sex as people instead of strange mutants from Venus or Mars.
Ugh, proselytizing again! Must take a break…
BTW, thanks to both Flipsyde and Elysian for taking this thread in the direction that I was hoping that it would go.
There is no blanket that you can successfully throw over ALL people and have it it do a good job of coverage. Not all men, not all women. Especially not when you’re talking sex or relationships.
I had a male friend in HS that I had a major crush on. I was friends with him under the above mentioned dishonest motivations. He had every possible opportunity to get his rocks off with me, and yet he never did, but we were still friends, hanging out, seeing movies, having dinner at each other’s houses. Clearly, it’s possible to be friends with a girl AND not be thinking up ways to try and get in her pants. I’m living proof of that. On that basis alone, the blankey doesn’t fit.
Anyhow, Jennyrosity sorry to hear that the dudes you knew are being buttheads. It sounds like they were not being honest about the nature of any relationship with you. You can definitely have guy friends, just not with guys who are not honest with themselves.
Thanks, CrazyCatLady. I appreciate finally hearing the term defined by a woman and hearing that isn’t not far off from what I thought it should be, but it doesn’t actually solve the problem for me. The problem is, many times, that’s all I was doing before. She (whichever previous GF) weren’t intimate, weren’t touching or kissing, we were “friends” as you and I both defined it, talking about stuff, doing things when there wasn’t anything else to do, sharing toys, and so on. Out of the blue (or so it seems to me) I am told that she just “doesn’t want to see me, she just wants to be friends.”
Do you see my problem? I thought I was just being a friend, although I had hoped quietly for something else. I thought I was doing what “just friends” do. The implication is that I wasn’t doing it right: at least that’s the inference I come away with.
Perhaps the problem isn’t interpretation, but anticipation of the future. She’s not saying “you’re not doing it right,” but “this is far enough.” However, I’m hearing the “you’re not being a friend properly, you’ve gone too far, you have to change what you’re doing.” It’s part of the ego-tied-up-in-competence thing, I think. I believe men are more likely to interpret essentially neutral comments like this as accusations of failure; when you say, “did you pick out that tie?” we hear, “Damn, that’s fugly, didn’t your mama teach you the difference between pink and orange?” My first reaction – and from I read on this thread my reaction isn’t uncommon – is to examine the statement to see if it is an attack or an accusation. I believe I can say without fear of contradiction that men all too easily become defensive, and in this case, the defensive reaction is to retreat from what’s causing pain. Men (in my broadly uneducated opinion) have highly sensitive attack-detecting mental filters.
In the male mental filter, “I just want to be friends” turns into “you’ve failed to meet standards for a more meaningful relationship, I’m not attracted to you, there’s someone else better.” It’s like hearing, “We’ll keep your resume on file” after an interview, or like when a girl tells us, “I’ll give you a call.” Most guys interpret it as a brushoff line, I think, because most guys use it as a brushoff line. (“She doesn’t really mean she’s going to call, she’s just saying that.”)
Related to the OP again, I think perhaps the “just friends” in this case are inferring rejection from the presence of a new boyfriend. I know I’m terrible at inferring the right message from vocal cues or context, I’m terrible at inferring the proper subtext, so I have a tendency to be overly pessimistic in interpreting the message. Maybe that’s what is happening here. My guess is that they are retreating from this perceived “new” rejection.
I don’t know if my own personal level of communications incompetence is typical, but it may still be enlightening.
FISH