Musing on the topic of male physical attractiveness, I wonder if that standard hasn’t evolved along with culture:
Traditionally female and male standards of beauty were considered to be parallel X-axes. The female one went from Marie Dressler to Ava Gardner, the male from Lon Chaney Jr. to Burt Lancaster.
But now we see that men are just uglier half of our particular species, and with the balance of power more equalized between the sexes, a more equalized standard favoring the female.
Here’s my proof: imagine any of the current crop of male-model leading men; say, Hugh Jackman, in drag, then by comparison go ahead and visualize Lancaster, William Holden, etc. all dolled up. The modern male leads are all required to be feminine-standard prettier (let’s leave Daniel Craig as an outlier).
More and more there is only one X axis, and instead of a parallel X axis, there is a perpendicular Y axis for male physical beauty, since guys can’t be too fem or the majority of women aren’t attracted. But a woman who is too heavy-featured i.e… masculine simply drops back on the X axis.
And, though nobody’s yet pointed it out, guys have to perform on an X/Y Behavioral Cartesian coordinate too: too pushy: creepy-aggressive. Too reserved: creepy-brooder who’ll shoot up the aerobics class.
Creepiness is not a matter of looks. A person acting in an objectively creepy manner is acting in an objectively creepy manner, whether they are a movie star or a quasimodo.
Perception of creepiness is a matter of looks, sometimes. A person engaging in otherwise-inoffensive flirtation with someone else is more likely to be perceived as “creepy” if they are fugly than if they are not.
It’s one thing to know instantly that you aren’t romantically compatible with someone. Or maybe not to not particularly like them. But to despise someone utterly, before you’ve even met? I don’t think his distaste for that is as uncommon as you think. I don’t put up with even friends who do that, and I know I’m not alone.
I don’t get why these things that would otherwise be unacceptable suddenly become okay while dating. If someone came into the Pit and said they hated a certain doper because they just had a feeling, do you think that would fly?
Hatred is just too powerful an emotion for just some person you’ve just met.
And now to very briefly touch on the topic of this thread, as I’ll admit it’s been a while. I think that most “creepy” guys just lack social skills. This is more likely to happen with guys who are not as attractive. Attractive people tend to get noticed and people want to be around them. So they can learn social skills more easily. That’s what I think the connection is.
I’m not including the hostile creepy guys in this, because that’s a use of of the word that never really came up in my social circles. I’ve not known too many hostile guys, and the few that I did know were called “assholes,” not “creeps.”
Who ever said it was in the context of dating? This was someone vaguely in my sphere at a summer job. And no, I didn’t hate him in the sense of wishing him dead or anything, and I certainly didn’t go announce it publicly. But yeah, he brought out feelings of nastiness in me, and there was no rhyme or reason to it.
As for creeps versus awkward people, and creeps versus handsome people, I can think of a certain type who’s both socially adept and good-looking, and still very, very creepy. It’s that attractive guy who constantly pushes women’s boundaries and then pleads “just kidding” or “I didn’t realize!” to get the group on his side when called on it. That’s not to say that women don’t sometimes say “creepy” when they mean “ugly,” but it’s not a necessary correlation.
We are officially going in circles. A few guys have made this point several times, a few women (myself among them) have said no, this is not the case, then guys come back and say yes it is. I don’t know what to say to this except no it isn’t? Fine, you guys can have it your way. I say actions are not less likely to be perceived as creepy if the guy is good looking; it’s possible a woman may be willing to put it with more of it, as people in general eat more shit from attractive people, but the actions are perceived equally no matter what. But okay great, I get it, you’ll all insist on seeing things your way. Have at it. Being creepy isn’t your fault. You were in this weird grey area that totally would have been charming had a handsome man done it. Harrumph. <pouty face>
Fortunately, not an issue for me, as I am happily married to a beautiful woman despite my alleged extreme hideousness and creepiness. And as a consequence, I no longer flirt.
I do however think you are simply misunderstanding the point. If you will note, in the part of my post you did not quote, I was agreeing with you. My point is that you, and these men you inspire you to pout, are talking about different things.
Yes, you are quite correct, actions that are objectively creepy are no less creepy if they are performed by good-looking folks.
Where you are wrong, is that not everything that is labelled by someone as “creepy” actually is “creepy”, objectively speaking. Some things - specifically, flirting - will be labelled as “creepy” by some women if it comes from an ugly man, moreso that the same level of flirting will be labelled as “creepy” if it comes from a good-looking man.
You can deny it all you like, in increasingly outraged and personally-insulting tones if you care to, but you are kinda sorta denying reality here.
Not to mention that flirtation is by definition a mutual exchange, a back-and-forth. It’s not flirting if she’s not flirting back. It’s not the first volley that’s creepy, it’s the continued persistence in the face of the other person’s refusal to engage. If a guy asks a woman in a coffee shop about her book, and she keeps her nose buried in it and makes no response, and he continues peppering her with questions while she continues to refuse to engage him – would you call that flirting? Really? That’s like calling a monologue a conversation.
It ain’t creepy because Flirting While Ugly. It’s creepy because Persisting After a Clear Refusal.
Here’s the problem: Being “creepy” is doing things like incorrectly reading social cues, not respecting personal boundaries, and acting outside the generally accepted “normal” range of behavior. But that means it’s often hard to say what’s objectively “creepy”, because there’s no one clearly defined set of social cues, personal boundaries, or normal behavior. It all depends on context. And part of the context of any situation is the people involved and how they feel about each other. So, yes, physical attractiveness will often be part of the context that determines what social cues are being sent, where personal boundaries are being placed, and even what behaviors are viewed as normal. I’d give an example, but I think Sam Lowry described it really well. The basic gist is that in many cases, what determines whether a behavior is “creepy” or not is whether it is invited and/or welcomed. If I want someone to talk to me, then I don’t find it creepy if he talks to me. If I don’t want someone to talk to me, then I do find it creepy if he talks to me. Now, of course, I don’t necessarily expect every guy to know by looking at me whether I want to be approached, but they should be able to tell whether my response is positive or negative, and act accordingly.
The problem is that people come to the conclusion: “Attractive Guy hits on a woman and gets laid, while Unattractive Guy hits on a woman and gets called a creep, therefore, hitting on women is acceptable behavior only if you’re attractive, and “creepy” is just shorthand for unattractive.” But this presumes that AG and UG are doing the same thing: hitting on a woman. This is not the case. AG is more likely to be hitting on a woman who is interested in and receptive to him. UG is more likely to be hitting on a woman who is disinterested and unreceptive. If AG does the exact same thing as UG, i.e. hits on a woman who is disinterested and unreceptive, he will also get labeled a creep.
It’s like this: some businesses never post job listings, but they’re always “hiring” if they encounter someone whose skills are valuable to them, right? So we have PhD Joe, and GED Jim, who both inquire about jobs at a bunch of these companies. Most of the companies invite Joe to an informal lunch to chat, then ask him to submit a formal resume, and in some cases, they give him a job offer. He takes one of the offers and starts coming to his new job every day. Jim, on the other hand, doesn’t hear a response at all from most of the companies, while one or two at least say, “Sorry, we’re not hiring.” But Jim goes ahead and keeps trying to schedule lunches, submit resumes, and even shows up at the companies ready to work, until they sue him for harassment. In court, Jim offers this as his defense: “It’s not fair, Your Honor! Joe gets to set up lunches and send resumes, and no one complains when HE does it! It’s just because he has a PhD, isn’t it? This is class discrimination!” And of course, it’s not. Joe’s behavior is not acceptable because he has a PhD, but because the companies are interested in him due to his PhD (and other skills). If Joe did what Jim did at a company that was not interested in him in spite of his PhD, he’d be facing a lawsuit as well. And if Jim did what he did with a company that was interested, he’d have a job.
Bottom line: it’s (usually) not that a behavior is “creepy” in an absolute sense, but that it’s “creepy” in that particular context.
However, some women (men too!) will label the initial contact as “creepy”, even where it is tactful and respectful of boundaries! It isn’t really, of course - there is nothing objectively creepy about an ugly person asking about a book, or engaging in any other conversational ‘hook’ and withdrawing on seeing it isn’t welcome - but, remarkably, some people will nonetheless label it as such. “Did ya see that guy trying to pick me up? What a creep!”.
I feel like pulling a Diogenes right now and saying “No, I’m not and no they won’t be.” And anyway, I meant “you” in the general sense. Since we’ve been going in circles for a while now (I get what everyone’s been saying, and we’ve gone over every angle they’ve tried to approach this from), I’m going to have myself a drink and bow out.
Not quite: some behaviours, as pointed out above, are clearly objectively “creepy” no matter who does them - such as persistant, unwanted/unreciprocated advances. This is true for the UG as much as for the AG.
For the UG, fact is that different folks place different emphasis on looks versus other qualities. I have seen many a UG who was very successful with women - because he was funny, outgoing, or otherwise interesting, despite his looks. OTOH, some women would never consider a UG, no matter what other qualities he might have … but in general, men have the advantage, in that women are more foregiving of looks vs. other qualities.
So a UG would rationally (and objectively “not be creepy”) in approaching women, because some may well be interested - but, even if he’s a non-creepy guy and by no means persists in advances if they are not reciprocated, a certain percentage of women will find his initial advances “creepy” nonetheless.
This is why I say there is a difference between “objective” and “perceived” creepiness. “Objective” are those behaviours that would be creepy no matter who did them.
The female equivalent of “creepy” is “crazy”. Crazy women wrote you love notes and start naming your firstborn an hour after you met. It’s the same thing. They act erratically, against social norms and personal expectations, in a way that is threatening or upsetting.
There is hot crazy, and there is also ugly crazy.
Now, the perfect ten who is going through your phone while threatening to slit her wrists if you don’t take her to dinner is definitely still crazy. You may put up with that, because you want to bang her out, but she is still crazy.
Okay, but even then, it’s possibly not just that they’re ugly, but that they’re making that initial contact in ways that incorrectly read social cues, don’t respect personal boundaries, or act outside the generally accepted “normal” range of behavior. I mean, I’ll allow that some women might label every unwanted interaction as “creepy”, but *most *of the women I know (including myself) reserve that word for something that’s out of the ordinary, and at least a little unnerving.
I agree that some behaviors are creepy in an absolute sense, because I’m unable to come up with a context in which they would be welcomed/invited. But that doesn’t mean that the other behaviors are only creepy when UGs do them. AGs and UGs alike are never creepy if they’re doing something that’s welcomed/invited. Yes, AGs are more likely to be welcomed/invited, but they’re still bound by the same social rules.
Thats a valid comparison. If the male creep is one who establishes intimacy far too early the female equivalent would be one that attempts to establish a relationship or emotional connection far too quickly. Talking about what to name the kids after 6 months is ok, after 2 minutes is awkward.
But I don’t think instability is something one gender fears over the other. I think both have similar fears about ending up with someone unstable. Then again, I’m sure women fear for their safety due to it far more than men do. The only truly scary women I’ve met are the ones who know how to manipulate the justice and social system. They are terrifying.
Do they literally use the word “look” creepy, or tell you that the person is or seems creepy? I’ve come to realize that most of the people I instantly decide seem creepy all have one thing in common, even though these people are both men and women of various ages: they move differently. Usually in a slow, exaggeratedly deliberate manner. I find the same thing upsetting about baby sloths and those freaky balloon people at car dealerships, so I guess it’s not surprising I find people who move oddly disturbing too.
It’s possible that men, when faced with a very hot woman, might take much longer to realize her level of crazy. That is, it’s not that they realize she is crazy and then consciously decide that they’ll put up with it, maybe in some cases their internal ‘crazy radar’ is affected and they don’t see what others around them see.
That’s why sometimes friends are needed to bring the person back to reality, and also, sometimes, after a breakup, some men realize just how crazy their ex really was.
And, possibly, when faced with average or ugly women, men’s ‘crazy radar’ works just fine, and they can detect the slightest whiff of crazy.
Again, maybe it’s not a conscious decision to put up with the crazy for hot women, and not put up with it for ugly women, maybe there is some internal recalibration of the crazy radar for different women.
Similarly, maybe there is similar recalibration of the ‘creepy radar’ in women, when faced with hot guys vs ugly guys. If this is indeed the case, then from a woman’s point of view, she is not changing her definition of creepy depending on the guy’s looks. But, if third parties around her do notice that what actions she labels as creepy vary depending on the attractiveness of the guy, then maybe that is a more accurate assessment of what is going on than taking the word of the woman acting this way.
Just as it is maybe a more accurate assessment of the situation if third parties notice that a guy labels ugly girls as ‘crazy’ for much lesser offenses than hot girls.
Is it possible that there is an age gap in the usage of the word creep? That is, women above, say 30, use it more sparingly and when the behavior indeed is creepy, but, say, women under 30 use it much more frequently, and more related to the attractiveness of the guy? Maybe the usage of the word has changed over the past decade or so.
Not sure what the age variation of the women in this thread, but as I recall, Dopers do have a relatively higher age range than people in their twenties.
This thread reminds me of why it was so hard for me to be single and looking, and why I consider myself very lucky to have been married to a gorgeous woman I’m madly in love with for almost two decades. Did I ever come across as creepy? Probably. It was more a matter of being extremely socially awkward, though, so I probably came across as more pathetic than creepy. I never learned to read signals. I can count on one hand the number of times I realized a woman was interested in me, and in those cases it was a matter of her giving me her number (once that I remember) or asking for mine (I married this one). I probably tended more toward giving up too easily, but I never learned to tell when someone was interested and usually assumed they weren’t. I can see how that degree of awkwardness can be off-putting if not creepy. I’m not unattractive, but not good looking enough to have gotten away with being totally clueless. Btw, I’d think it was creepy if a supermodel saw my wedding ring and hit on me. If someone I didn’t consider attractive at all hit on me without realizing I was married ( not likely unless I was wearing gloves or had my left hand in my pocket) I’d probably be flattered. The only instance of creepiness I’ve personally encountered was when a gay man kept hitting on me even after I politely told him I was straight.
I’d say it depends on the first volley. If I am seated next to you on a plane (some of my worst creep experiences have been on planes) and I have my nose buried in a book, and am wearing my wedding ring, and your first volley is to tell me how lovely my eyes are - that’s creepy…no matter what you look like. I’m trapped, I’m sending the universal “I don’t want to talk to you” signal of air travel, and I am wearing a wedding ring. I now get to spend the next several hours worried about you infringing inappropriately on my eighteen inches of seat, and if your eyes are on my chest, and what I should do if you actually grope me (or if you just spend time rubbing your thigh against mine).
Now, the first volley is a comment on the travel or asking if this is a business trip or if I’m coming or going, and its maybe a little invasive (book out, don’t talk), but I might put the book down and make small talk because its nice to make innocuous small talk on a plane.
And as a consequence, I no longer flirt.
