I think that men and women are equally mishearing each other. Members of both sexes see subtext that isn’t necessarily there and respond to that.
Some men hear the “Let’s just be friends” thing and think what they’re really saying is “I think you are worthy of friendship, but not worthy of fucking.”
Some women hear the “Why waste my time?” thing and think what they’re really saying is “I think you are worthy of fucking, but not worthy of friendship.”
I think (hope) in most cases, it’s not about worth. It’s about what they’re looking for at that point in their lives. It sucks and it hurts, but oh well.
I am always amazed more guys don’t use this tactic. I have a lot of hot friends. I regularly get my hot female friends together with my hot male friends when I can. Several of my friends have hooked up with each other. I know a lot of guys who complain about not being able to meet enough females. One of the best ways to meet females is through their friends! The guys I know who always have a million girls jumping at them have a bunch of female friends.
What is so damn hard about being friends with someone you are in love with? (or even just want to fuck for that matter.) I have had three horribly deep crushes in my life. The first two were never requited, the third one ended rather badly after a failed relationship. I am still friends with all of them and of all my friends, I consider them to be among the best. So suck it up and deal with it! Or don’t, but don’t get pissed off at the person.
I think you meant to say, “It always amazes me how horny guys get treated on this board.”
If he were simply lonely, the company of a caring friend would be enough. He’s horny. H O R N Y. His problem is that the woman in question isn’t horny for him so I guess it makes the rest of us real bitches for raining on his horny, rainy day.
I think the problem lies in the fact that some guys aren’t thinking about the big picture. Establishing social networks is a great way to meet people, and there’s less likely to be any unpleasant surprises if there are mutual friends involved who are familiar with both people. It has the added advantage of creating a support system so the guy (or girl) is steered away from making stupid relationship blunders.
The core of all this lies in getting over the initial rejection. Abandoning friendships, building up false hopes, and melodrama are all aspects of coping with not being able to get over the person. Dwelling on something you will never have is emotional masochism, IMO.
I do believe that sometimes, the rejected suitor rejects “just friendship” because they are hurt—so hurt that seeing the object of their desire and ardor with another, or just “hanging out” with this other person would be so painful that it just isn’t worth the heartache. Totally understand that.
But sometimes, I’m not sure this flies. If a guy (or girl) has known a person for, say, a few months, or they have known them casually for longer but have only been spending more time with them recently, it’s doubtful that they are deeply, deeply attached and in love. There just doesn’t seem to have been enough time for that—to sincerly be in love. Infatuation, yes. Horny, yes. But deeply in love or something profoundly close to it? Uh, I dunno. Of course, maybe I have a heart as cold as a stone so perhaps I cannot fathom such a thing.
They more likely feel “like” and they feel “attraction.” Being rejected and told that the other person doesn’t feel “that way” about them is going to hurt and definitely bruise their ego, but I have a hard time swallowing that it is that deep of a wound for them that they can’t get over it. Unless a lot of people are really falling in love here, really quick.
I’ve been friends with guys who were interested (but I was not) and somehow, they managed to get over whatever feelings they had and we’re still friends. Finding out that I wasn’t interested wasn’t the death knell to our friendship. Because we were really friends to begin with.
What’s sad and desparate? You are “friends” with other guys. People you can be completely comfortible around. People who you don’t secretly want something from or don’t want anything from you. How can you be friends with a girl you are sexually attracted to? Don’t get me wrong. There are plenty of girls (or women or whatever) that I am friendly with. But I’m not friends with them like I am with my buddies. By the same token, I do things with my girlfriend I don’t do with my friends. Each has a unique role to play in my life.
Think of it this way. If you have a wife or girlfriend, would she want you crashing over a female friends house after a few drinks? Would she want you going out to dinner or drinks with a female friend without her? What if the roles were reversed? Would you bring a female friend to a bachelor party?
What do you do with a female friend? Be a shoulder to cry when she fights with her boyfriend, all the while secretly frustrated? Go pick up girls at a bar? Play “big brother protector” when she and her friends go out drinking?
And the point of my initial statement was that if you are looking to be with a girl as a SO (or even a one night stand) and not as a friend, you need to approach her as a sexual guy, not as a pal or friend. If you approach as a friend, you will stay that way because you have just eliminated all the perceived danger and mystery from the relationship.
Like Vince Vaughn said in Swingers - Don’t be the PG guy that everyone reaaally hopes gets the girl…be the R rated guy that everyone’s not so sure where he’s coming from.
[QUOTE=msmith537]
What’s sad and desparate? You are “friends” with other guys. People you can be completely comfortible around. People who you don’t secretly want something from or don’t want anything from you. How can you be friends with a girl you are sexually attracted to? Don’t get me wrong. There are plenty of girls (or women or whatever) that I am friendly with. But I’m not friends with them like I am with my buddies. By the same token, I do things with my girlfriend I don’t do with my friends. Each has a unique role to play in my life.
Think of it this way. If you have a wife or girlfriend, would she want you crashing over a female friends house after a few drinks? Would she want you going out to dinner or drinks with a female friend without her? What if the roles were reversed? Would you bring a female friend to a bachelor party?
QUOTE]
Yeah, that’s sad, all right. Deciding whether someone’s your friend based on their genitalia rather than their personality, not being completely comfortable around the opposite sex, not considering your partner one of your friends, not being able to be friends with someone you think is hot, not trusting your partner with their friends of the opposite sex…that’s one of the most depressing posts I’ve ever heard in my life. I just…I can’t imagine living like that, to be honest.
To answer your questions in order: You’re friends with people you’re sexually attracted to the same way you’re friends with people you’re not sexually attracted to. Yes, I would want Dr.J to crash at a female friend’s house after a few drinks if it was safer than him driving home. He goes out with his female friends without me pretty frequently, and I think it’s great. If the roles were reversed, it would depend on whether he knew the guy or not. If he knew him, no biggie. If not, he’d probably go into his “another dog just pissed on my favorite tree” routine, and I’d slap him upside the head. Yes, he took female friends to his bachelor party. I had male friends at my bachelorette party. See, there’s this nifty invention called “trust” that you might want to look into sometime.
Wow, Ellis, I bet the view is really great from up there on that cross. Nobody is saying that guys who say, “Look, it hurts too much to try to be friends right now,” is an asshole. Nobody thinks such a guy is just looking for a warm hole to stick it in. What we are saying is that when we have the “let’s be friends” discussion with a man, and he won’t tell us why he doesn’t want to be friends, we’re left thinking he was just after the booty.
And out of curiosity, why is it okay for men to portray women and heartless, selfish bitches just keeping guys on the string, but it’s not okay for women to portray men as just being after sex? What’s up with that shit?
Kimstu: You posted some good and reasonable thoughts. But now it’s really early, by brain has not yet reacted to my second cup of coffee, and it’s nearly time for me to leave for work.
Maybe I’ll just concede that you are a nicer person than I am. Among other things I don’t now, and have never, wanted any sort of friendship with an ex. That just doesn’t work for me.
By CrazyCatLady: "You’re friends with people you’re sexually attracted to the same way you’re friends with people you’re not sexually attracted to."
It’s never worked that way for me. YMMV
By msmith537: "What do you do with a female friend? Be a shoulder to cry when she fights with her boyfriend, all the while secretly frustrated? Go pick up girls at a bar? Play “big brother protector” when she and her friends go out drinking?
Yeah, that question, exactly. I don’t want to do those things.
Look: Having female friends at work or female friends that for whatever reason will never be a romantic interest is one thing. Crashing on the couch at a woman’s house as a “friend” when I want her but she’s indicated that I’ll never make it to the bedroom with her is not a thing I would ever do. For god’s sake, call a cab.
Hey, at least he was an honest bitch. Would you have prefered if he’d said sure, let’s be be friends, only to make a pass at you again in two months time?
Because he would, you know.
With very few exceptions (family, nuns, what have you), when a man meets a woman who’s approximately in the age group he’s interested in and who’s reasonably attractive, he will assess her as a potential sexual partner. Whether he carries on along that path is another thing: he might be married, and the commitment might weigh more important to him than the potential nookie joy. But he STILL makes that assessment. It’s hardwired. Sorry.
So, you’re better off with an asshole who bluntly tells you he just wasted an evening than someone who’ll pretend to be a friend and hang around for another chance. Once they’ve initiated that first move, you’re a target forever, and the “friends” thing just doesn’t fly anymore.
Which is not to say men and women can’t be friends. They can. But in my experience, they only will become friends if there is a factor at play which incapacitates the woman in question as a sexual partner. She’s married, she’s not attractive enough to consider as a sexual partner, she has a very obvious character flaw that puts the man off… whatever the reason, there is something. Another class of women a man can be friends with are ex-girlfriends, but the success rate of this type of friendship is very low, in my experience. Of all the girlfriends I’ve ever had, I’m actually only in regular contact with one. And while I’m no Cassanova or anything, that’s a pretty low success rate.
All of this also doesn’t mean men are ONLY in it for sex. Like Lizard said, he’s looking for far more than that. But the initial contact and subsequent assessment? Sexual. Sure, as the night goes on and you get to know each other better, you discover and appreciate more things: a good sense of humour, intelligence. Of course. But any guy that denies he’s assessing women as potential sex partners upon first contact, is lying.
Having said all that, that Ladder Theory is still a pile of horse shite - other than the assumption that men are sexually driven, which I agree with. It assumes a hell of a lot about what people look for in partners. I especially don’t buy the “Women want a rich guy” theory. Or at the very least, me and my wife prove it wrong. I’m neither rich nor goodlooking, and my wife’s a total babe. I guess my sense of humor is a bit of all right.
[sub]My wife’s a bit more than a total babe, of course. She’s extremely intelligent, and has one of the most delightful senses of sarcasm I’ve ever witnessed in a woman. She never fails to crack me up.[/sub]
Well, yes, that would save everyone a lot of aggravation and prevent the existence of threads like this one.
Just EVERYONE (male, female, straight, gay, involved, not involved) adopt a policy of explicit unedited communication both ways.
EVERYONE, male AND female, abandon any use of hints, clues, “signals”, euphemisms, “The Rules”, unwritten/unsaid it’s-just-understood or it’s-always-done-this-way rituals, or expectations of mind-reading.
Sure, it’ll be one miserable and slap-happy transition period, but think of the children!
I agree. I think the reason it is usually put in the men vs. women compartments is that most of the time (in hetero cases of course) men make the advances and women choose to accept or not. I can’t imagine a women getting rejected would feel much different than a man getting rejected. It would probably be better then to have “advancers” and “acceptors” in these types of discussions rather than along gender divisions.
And why not? I have always been direct in my relationships. If there is no sparkle, I tell them that. I have no trouble separating friends from lovers, and there are many of my friends who I have no desire to sleep with at all, and I have dated some of my still current friends and remained friends with them even after determining there was no spark [either they decided or i decided and we discussed it like rational beings. In general it went more or less like - You are a great friend, and last night was fun, but it isnt what I am looking for. Sorry, but we gave it a good shot, so back to just friends? and sometimes there might be a discussion as to what I found not quite right in the relationship thing. I never tried to change anybody to conform to what I wanted, and I refuse to conform to what they wanted. I did that a couple times and ended up in some seriously violent relationships one of which cost me pretty much everything I owned. Thankfully I hadn’t gotten around from getting all my stuff that I had stored back in Rochester at my parents house so I didn’t lose anything particularly family-heirloom/sentimental.
Not to threadjack too badly, but I’m wondering on a piece of advice.
I was in this same situation about 2 years ago. Well, maybe not -the same-. I didn’t get the ‘just friends’ talk until -after- I walked in on her having sex with someone else :rolleyes:
Anyway, we had ‘the talk’, and being the pathetic thing I am, I decided, okay, friends is good. It’s all there’s gonna be.
The problem is, after 2 years, she’s become something of an addiction for me. I don’t stalk her or anything, but she -knows- if she has problems, all she has to do is mention them to me, and I’ll be over in a flash to help her. I -know- I should just walk away from it, but 1) We have too many mutual friends and too many mutual social activities that I don’t want to give up, and 2) Well, I -do- like her. Still. I keep deluding myself that one day her feelings may change for me, even though realisticly I’m pretty darn certain they never will. Still. She calls, I help. I feel vaguely ‘used’, even though it’s something I’d likely do for any other friend. I guess I’m just confused over the matter, and would love to hear some outside persepctive / advice.
And just my two cents- After the ‘talk’, I went on a policy of pure honesty for several months, until I realized the colateral dammage that something like that could cause. It’s a hard thing to deal with, but sometimes not saying anything is best.
I can be lonely and want the company of a boyfriend without being horny. The company of a caring friend is always wonderful, but it isn’t the same as the kind of company you have in a romantic relationship. It has nothing to do with being horny.
It’s hard to really form much of an opinion without having more information. Does she ever call any of her other friends for help, or is it always just you? Are you Mr. Fixit for all of your friends, or just for her? Are you able to have feelings for other women, or are you sitting there pining away for her? How far in the foreground are your hopes that her feeling will change?
Right now, I can’t say that she is or isn’t using you. If this is a pattern you’d established well before the issue of dating had come up, I’d say she’s not using you. At least, she’s not intentionally using you. If this isn’t the pattern you’ve had since the relationship started, she may very well be intentionally using you. If she asks a lot of you, but asks a lot of her other friends too, I’d say she’s just one of those “someone hold my hand” people. If she asks more of you than of her other friends, but so do the rest of your friends, I’d guess that you’re one of those guys everyone calls when the shit hits the fan. However, if she consistently asks more of you than of her other friends, and she consistently asks more of you than your other friends ask, there’s probably some other issues there. A lot also depends on whether she asks for help, or if she mentions something and you jump right in with offers of assistance (which I have to think you probably don’t do for everyone.)
I also can’t really say whether you’re really being her friend or if you’re just hanging around in hopes of getting another shot. If you’re getting out there and forming relationships with other women (or at least giving it the old college try), and those relationships aren’t impeded by the fact that you like her, there’s probably no real problem. If, however, you can’t form other romantic attachments because of your feelings for this woman, or those feelings undermine those other attachments, there’s a big ol’ problem and you need to find a way to distance yourself from the situation. Likewise, if your hopes are anything more than the vague, wouldn’t-it-be-nice-but-I’m-not-gonna-hold-my-breath sort of hopes I have that my husband will some day learn to put a roll of toilet paper on the spindle, there’s a problem and you need some distance.
It does sound to me like your feelings of being used are because, on some level, you expect something in return that you’re not getting. Whether that’s because you expect her to help you with problems and she doesn’t, or because you expect her to buy you beer and pizza when you help her and all you get is a Pepsi and a veggieburger, or because you feel like she ought to love you for what you do for her and she doesn’t, I have no idea. But there’s something that you’re expecting or feel you deserve, either on top of your mind or underneath, that you aren’t getting that’s making you dissatisfied.
Oh please. Aren’t we past those kind of asinine assumptions? Men aren’t horny 100% of the time, except during the teen years through college. And even at that time, we are perfectly capable of romantic emotions too.
A caring friend is not enough. I have friends, about 3-5 close friends and the discrepancy is because some live so far away I can’t see them as often as I like. I truly don’t need more friends. But I could fit a girlfriend into my life. You see, when I wonder if a woman is gf material there are many other things, besides sex, that enter the equation. My oldest and best friend is good to hang out with, a nice buddy, he’ll tell me when I’m out of line and will always offer good advice, as opposed to what I want to hear.
But we sure as hell won’t snuggle up on the couch with some wine to watch a creepy movie on a rainy November night. And he won’t sleep over and let me fix him breakfast with freshly squeezed OJ and crispy croissants from the bakery around the corner. And even though we give each other Christmas presents (I give him a book I think he should read and vice versa), we don’t spent Christmas together.
A girlfriend is more than a friend with a warm and moist receptacle or two. If that goes contrary to your experience, you’re either very young or hang with the wrong kind of guys.
