Well, as I have very much enjoyed reading these many words you have all shared, I think it could be said just a little more directly.
The difference between you and a guy who can sell used cars comes down to how hard are you willing to push to make the sale. Everybody’s different, used car dealers are dispised because we all know they have no boundaries. You clearly do. Can you change the boundaries of what’s right for you? I don’t think so, but you can accept that it’s not in your nature to be what you’re not. And remember, as a teenager, you are in the process of becoming everything you will ever be. It’s important to be comfortable with the choices you make now. You know you are doing the right thing by not pursuing sex at all costs, on some level, you’re just not getting stroked for it. It’s harsh when you realise that the world doesn’t applaud doing the right thing, but in the adult world that’s a reality. You clearly possess great maturity, you just find yourself in a society (high school) that won’t be able to acknowledge it’s value for several more years. You are what you are, and you know in your heart you are being true to what you believe to not press your ‘friends’ into sexual relationships.
I think this phrase, if I’m interpreting it correctly, may sum up your entire problem. It reeks of sexism. You know women major in things other than education these days, right? Hell, three of my closest friends in college were female chemical engineering majors. My MOM majored in zoology, and is now a doctor. I’ll be going to law school soon. We’re not all teachers and nurses anymore.
“Buffalo Bills? Oh, yeah. The guys that always snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.” --WallyM7
For some reason, I feel compelled to throw my two cents in. Maybe it’s because I’m an old-fashioned romantic (even tho I’m only 25) and I don’t think that view has been presented completely here. Let me start with this:
“Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perserves. Love never fails. . . . When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.” 1 Corinthians 13:4-8,11
From my point of view, this is what the “nice guy” should strive for. By this definition, the nice guy does not look to “get laid”, as it seems to me this is self-seeking. If that’s all you want, you are not loving the other person, you are only gratifying yourself. I am not saying that casual sex is right or wrong. That is not for me to decide. I can only make the decision whether it is right for me. But it is most certainly not love.
Rory, in my humble opinion, patience is golden at this point in your life. If all you really want is to get laid, then there are plenty of messages here that tell you how. But if you want real love, the kind that stands the test of time–something deep, gentle, and kind–then you can’t expect to find it just anywhere. You have to be willing to wait for it. And you have resign yourself to the possibility that, in this world, you may never find it. This is a HARD road, and I personally am still looking.
After reading Mark’s posts, I’m sure you realize just how hard it can be. Many of the posts here just bleed with self-pity. I’ve been down that road, too, but it leads nowhere. If you continually look back at your failures, you’ll never see the possibilities. I am 8 years removed from high school now, I have forgotten all but a few very unpleasant incidents, and even those memories are fading fast. If you continue to dwell on these things, you’ll only make yourself depressed and ultimately unhappy. The only way to be loved to direct your love outward, not inward.
Be kind. Be gentle. Be the nice guy, regardless of what anyone tells you about nice guys finishing last.
Hey guys… kep it coming, I’ve read every post and I learn something every time. There’s a sociology thesis in here somewhere, I can taste it
Couple of Things:
SENTINEL; You’re quite right in saying that that is a major lifestyle change. I knew a guy who did that, he wasn’t quite a ‘nice guy’ but he started asking a lot of girls out and he basically became a guy slut. Too deperate too go out with by far, and this was the beggining of everyone in the whole world not liking him anymore. He recently moved to California, he couldn’t live with his reputation here anymore. Now, this is an extreme example, but you see what I’m saying.
EVERYONE: The irishman is right, I’m actualy not looking to just get laid. The word that describes what I want comes straight from my health Teacher: INTIMACY. I need to touch. Fankly, boys or girls it doesn’t matter to me. The only person i have an even remotley physical relationship with is my mother and that’s no good. i had one girlfriend once. At camp, we had a fairly physical relationship. It never went anywhere though. It was long distance and she and I didn’t work mentally/emotionally. But even when I hang out with my friends, I always see the other guys and girls just sitting on each others laps and stuff like that. I want that. I am tired of being the benevolent fat guy. If you are Canadian, you’ve probably heard of Robertson davies. He wrote a book called Fifth Business; it’s about the fifth guy. He’s not the heroine, or the hero and he’s not the villain or the villainess, but he makes everything work better… andnever gets emotional fulfillment. This book happens to describe my life. I have been the third wheel on more relationbships than I can count. Each one It hink to myself, I could do such a better job ogf being a boyfriend than that guy and every time, i didn’t act on it, even after, I suppose out of lack of confidence or not wanting the friendship to get screwed.
I think I have been more than my fair share of patient… although, I don’t know how to proceed. I feel that my life is essentially full and easy except for this aspect. I try not to let it dominate me, but sometimes the yearning for physical contact is unbearable.
Wow. I haven’t checked this thread in three weeks, and there’s a lot I’d like to respond to here. Might as well start with Irishman’s question for me:
OK, I guess I wasn’t totally clear. Women have nothing against going out with guys who have a pleasant manner and, shall we say, a moderate degree of sensitivity. The warning signals start to go off when a guy we hardly know starts piling on the attention and friendliness – and most women over 20 have highly developed warning signals, because almost all of us have encountered some very dangerous men.
Truly evil guys almost never come across like Stanley Kowalski – more like Willie Loman. They walk with their heads down and tell long sad stories about how life has treated them badly. They treat any woman they date with kid gloves, initially, because they have a hard time finding dates and are determined to keep this one. They call every day and tell her they love her much too soon. And if she decides to break up with them, they will not take no for an answer. Practically every woman you meet has been caught up in this scenario at some point in her life. Forever afterward, her alarm bells will start to go off when she thinks a guy is investing too much in a relationship, too soon. Yes, this attitude keeps off a lot of harmless men – but it’s better, from our perspective, to miss ten shots at true love than encourage one psycho.
Men who are normal and desirable – in our eyes – don’t over-invest in one person because they know there are plenty of other women who would be happy to go out with them. They ask first whether any given woman pleases them, rather than how they can please her. Some men see this as being a jerk, but it’s really simple common sense. Later in the relationship, of course, the balance changes. There’s nothing nicer than a man who goes out of his way to fulfill your needs and wishes after you’ve been dating for some time. There’s nothing scarier than a man who tries to fulfill them right away, before he even knows what they are.
Several men have posted that women pigeonhole a guy into the “friend” category after a few meetings, and then refuse even to consider dating him. Not quite. In fact, I’d guess that the majority of women have at least one male acquaintance they’d date in a heartbeat if he showed any sign of interest. But they also have any number of friends and acquaintances they would never date at all, not because there’s some obscure female rule against dating friends, but because they have had time to observe the guy and know it wouldn’t work.
Think about it this way: if I meet a stranger in a bar and nothing about him is an obvious deal-breaker, I’ll figure I might as well go on a date with him. On the first date, or soon afterwards, I find out that he’s virulently pro-life, or that his main interests are sports and cars, or that he’d rather stay home than go out on weekends, or that he needs more time and attention than a busy grad student can give. None of these traits make him a bad person in my eyes, but they do make him a person I don’t particularly want to date. So I stop dating him. Now, if I find out these things before he asks me out, obviously I don’t date him in the first place, but the net result is the same. Yes, getting to know a woman before you ask her out will get you fewer dates, but most of the relationships it prevents would have been short and unfortunate, in any case. By all means, get to know her as a friend first. But focus on whether she is right for you, not how you can persuade her that you are right for her.
Whooh. I’ll stop now. Hope there’s no length limit on posts … and gentlemen, take everything I say with a grain of salt, because the first and most important thing to know about women is that we’re not all alike.
I think apathy, depression, irony, and confusion are damned fine ways to view a world going to hell.
– Cynthia Heimel
Irishman, you asked some good questions, and I’d like to take a shot at answering them.
Warning: Very, very long post ahead.
Your first question is actually your answer, but I’ll tackle the other parts first.
The real reason the bar scene doesn’t work is that it’s not conducive to determining if 2 people have any shared interests at all. Don’t waste your time.
If the dating service isn’t working for you, there could be several reasons: a) you’re sitting around waiting for one of the women who are registered to happen upon your profile and pick you (bad idea), b) it’s not the right “kind” of dating service for you (perhaps one that has people actually making the matches for their members and setting them up with each other would work better), or c) you are being too picky in the women you’ll choose from their pool. If you haven’t contacted every single female in their database that even remotely fits your criteria, then it’s your fault it’s not working.
You don’t have to go back to school and become an “eternal student” out of some sense that the only way to meet women is in school. IF you’re going to go back to school (even if only to take one course), do it because the subject really interests you and you’d like to learn more about it.
Which brings me right back to your first question, how you can meet people who might be interested in you. The answer is, DO THINGS you’re interested in! Do you like playing tennis? Join a tennis club and sign up for their round robin tournaments. Do you golf, and are you good at it? Try becoming a part time golf instructor. LOTS of women take lessons. And even the men you may teach just might have sisters or female friends they could fix you up with if you make the right impression. Are you a computer geek? Contact your local community college and find out about becoming an instructor in one of their adult education classes which are usually held in the evenings or on weekends. Are you active in your community? Join the Chamber of Commerce (anyone can become a member). They have social functions ALL the time! You can meet other people in your same line of work (maybe they work for the competition), or people in businesses that your company might be able to work with, and striking up conversations that are work related is a great way to break the ice.
Like softball? Join a co-ed league. There are co-ed bowling leagues, bike clubs, chess clubs - the list is endless. Heck, a friend of mine belongs to a group of people who all drive Mustangs for heaven’s sake (and they have monthly meetings and lots of parties). The key here is, DO the things that interest YOU and you’ll be 100 times more likely to meet women DOING those same things. If you are intersting, women are more likely to be interested.
First of all, I’m not sure how simply asking for a date can come across as desperate or set off alarms. But to answer your question, it’s simple - just ask! But, by G-d, have a plan and act confident. And if they turn you down, don’t wimper away like a puppy who’s just been kicked.
Ok, how do you ask? Like this: “Sue, I have tickets to [insert name of rock concert, play, symphony, etc.] on Friday. I’d love it if you could join me! Are you free?” (Tell her you have the tickets even if you don’t. If she says yes, go buy them - just make sure there are tickets available before you ask. If she says no, and later asks you how it was, just tell her you ended up giving the tickets to a friend who really wanted to see whatever it was. Yeah, sometimes you have to fib a little. There is NO harm in that kind of fib.)
Or, “Jane, I just heard about a new Italian place that opened up in my neighborhood (or, some friends have been recommending this little Italian place in my neighborhood for a while now). I’ve heard it’s great and I’d love to try it out. Would you like to have dinner with me on Saturday night?”
Or, “Marybeth, I remember you said you love to hike. There’s a really great hiking trail that leads to the most beautiful summit where you can see a 360 degree panorama of the city. Sunday’s supposed to be a beautiful day - would you like to join me?”
Be creative. Dinner and a movie gets old after a while. Check the “Calendar” section of your Sunday paper to find out what’s going on in your city that week. See if there are any “murder mystery” dinner theaters where the diners are participants (very fun!). Suggest a Sunday brunch and a museum afterwards (or brunch at the museum). Or ask her to play tennis, go bowling, go to the firing range, go to the local arcade - those are always a blast - and win her a stuffed animal! Dates where you’re actually doing something fun are – well – more fun, and she’ll be much more likely to want to go out with you again!
And just so you don’t get the idea that I’m “high maintenance” (or that all women are) and always have to be entertained, these suggestions are for first dates (and even 2nd and 3rd dates, until you become more “established” - if that ever happens). Hanging around on a Sunday watching football or spontaneously calling someone on a Wednesday afternoon for THAT night because you just feel like seeing them are great - but only if you’ve been dating that person a while, or at least have a few dates between you under your belt (so to speak).
Unfortunately Irishman, there are no definitive answers to this one. I’m as guilty as the next woman of sending out signals that might encourage men I’m otherwise not interested in to ask me out. I tend to be friendly and gregarious and sometimes men take this as flirtatious behaviour. And sometimes it can be - which is why it’s never wrong for you to take that chance. Of course you will sometimes be disappointed. But you will never get to that “yes” answer if you don’t step out there and take the chance. Dating is pretty much like sales. And everyone worth their salt in sales knows that in order to get 1 yes, they will have to hear, on average, 10 “nos.”
Hand holding is almost as intimate as a kiss (IMO), but simply touching a person on their forearm when talking is congenial without being intrusive. Although I have met people who simply don’t like to be touched, and frankly, being a “touchy” kind of person myself, I would know that those people weren’t the right people for me anyway. And don’t try to put your arm around her in a movie theater - that’s cheesy. And given how much shifting around people do in those little seats, it can just be constricting and uncomfortable.
Kissing goodnight on the first date is totally subjective, depending on the person. There are some men I’ve gone out with
It took me so dang long to compose my reply, I missed a couple of new ones.
Rory, I didn’t mean to ignore your plea for advice on how to break the barrier between friend and lover. I think Fretful Porpentine spoke volumes of wisdom in her post. Not all friends are destined to be lovers and not all friends are off limits to possible future relationships. And sometimes it’s as simple as a matter of timing. Read her post carefully because she says some very important things.
Don’t think that nice guys can’t get dates or have loving and intimate relationships in their lives just because it hasn’t happened for you yet. Don’t get discouraged. It’s not “nice” guys we women run from, it’s insecure, desperate guys that send us running to the hills.
As I mentioned to Irishman, if you find things in your life that fulfill you, you are bound to meet women (young women, girls, whatever) who share those interests and will be able to find a common starting point for embarking on something more intimate with one of them. But do it because you are genuinely interested in that activity. Your enthusiasm and enjoyment will be obvious and oftentimes contagious. Women can’t help but be excited about a guy who’s excited about LIFE!
Best of luck to you, too. I have confidence that, because your heart is in the right place, you will find love along the way.
“How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world.” - Anne Frank
I’m generally a nice guy. But through the years I’ve developed quite a backbone. If you try to take advantage of me, you’ll find yourself on the floor.
In my experience, confidence does not always work. I’m an extremely handsome man, and very intelligent, to boot. I have women who literally chase me around. Most of the attractive women I meet give me “fuck me” eyes.
This is all great, but here’s the problem. I am generally shy. I know when I’m getting the signals, but most of the time I simply don’t have the energy to follow up. The once in awhile I do get confidence, it’s extreme confidence, obnoxious and bordering on just plain insulting.
I get alot of first dates but I never get any second. I think it’s because I always try to score the first night and when I get rejected, my poor little ego is broken and I move on.
That’s why I love prostitutes. There is absolutely no bullshit when it comes to prostitutes. If you wanna fuck, bust out the bucks, big boy, because in the end, that’s really what it all comes down to.
Okay, there’s this girl. I know we have some similar interests, I run the Outdoors CLub at the school and she’s beenon nearly every trip. I’m really into photography and she just bought exactly the same camera. She’s a lot quieter than I am, but I don’t htink this will be a problem.
Do you think that asking mutual friends about said persons feelings is a good idea? I really am cowardly, you must understand.
Shayna, you’re words have given me great confidence and courage. Albeit, not enough to actually act, but enough to feel better about myself.
Gotta bump this back up… I’ve been getting good signals from this girl… i need to nkow what to do next. Should I talk to mutual friends or what? I’mnot terribly mobile right now, so I don’t know what I’d do for a date/ get to know you encounter type thing.
You say you’ve been getting good signals from this girl… does that mean you’re actually talking to her? If so, good for you, and keep talking. If she didn’t enjoy your company, she wouldn’t stick around for conversation. If you’re just sort of smiling at one another, that’s not a bad sign either, but if she’s as quiet as you suggest you’ll need to make the first move.
Remember Fretful Porpentine’s advice not to come on too heavy-handed too early, because you’ll spook her away. You’re both into photography? Great! Ask her if she’d like to go with you on some sort of outing to take photographs. Make it an afternoon thing, because daytime dates tend to be less angst-ridden. If she seems interested but a little uncertain, bring a couple of other trusted friends with you the first few times you get together. Just take it slow.
While you might consider recruiting a close friend or two to help out with early “group dates,” I really wouldn’t recommend asking people to intercede for you. Just being yourself seems to have sparked her interest in you - I think you can carry on just fine on your own.
I’ve got to agree with Fillet. If you’re getting good signals from her, then ask her out. (I know, great advice from an admitted chicken.) Some photography activity would be good - like a walk in a park or some historical landmark or something worthy of pictures. By saying you’re not mobile, I presume that’s a reference to a lack of a vehicle. Not sure what to suggest on that.
Other possibilities: school plays, or a casual lunch, or a friendly game of putt putt/bowling/ go-cart racing.
Asking friends what they think she thinks is probably okay, especially if you know the friend well, but having the friend intercede is probably not the right approach. (This from a guy who needed his sister to help set up his prom date.) You might ask mutual friends about her interests.
Okay, that’s my best advice, now back to hijacking your thread.
Drain Bead:
I guess I forgot my [sarcasm] tags again. Yes, I am well aware that women study much more than education. I was referring to the female to male ratio in education. It is a large integer, vs say mechanical engineering, with a small fraction (okay, moderate fraction). It’s not that long since I was in college. No, I don’t think women are only suited to teaching and nursing and housework. I like smart women. I’m just referring to opportunities.
This gets back to my previous statement that my life is surrounded by male-dominated situations. I’m an engineer. My other participatory activities are karate and secular humanism. I’ve become pretty active in each of these, but as I’ve said, there’s lots of men and few women.
So someone suggest a new activity I can take up that is fun and has lots of women. Preferably smart women. Women who like to read, women who enjoy science, women who don’t mind atheists.
BigRoryG:
YES!!! [bragging]I’m right, I’m right! [/bragging] Just endulging in a little ego gratification. I get it where I can.
You said it all. Sometimes I lie awake at night craving someone to hold, feeling the warmth of flesh, the smoothness of skin, the softness of hair. I occasionally have dreams where I feel the touch of skin. At the risk of destroying all vestiges of my masculinity, I want to be held. I want a kiss. I want to smell the wonderful smell of freshly cleaned skin. I want to wrap my arms around a woman and share the warmth of her body and feel her heartbeat. Maybe I should get a pet. [No, not THAT kind of animal affection!]
Fretful Porpentine:
A fair criticism. I think I’ve done that a few times. Overactive sense of romanticism. Try to impress, scare off instead.
I understand that. I’ve been there from the other side. I’ve known some women I’ve been attracted to at first, but after getting to know them I become aware of things that won’t do. From the receiving end of that, though, it would be nice to know exactly what it is that makes me not her type. If it’s something I can’t see, I’m left with the undefinable “other”. That really helps me figure out how to find compatible women.
Perhaps, but it also means I miss out on kissing, and holding hands, and hugging. I also miss out on learning how to make plans, how to interact in social circles, how to know when to try to hold hands and when not to push it. How to recognize when someone is incompatible. All of those things that some people were figuring out in Jr High some of us have not experienced.
I agree that getting to know a person first is not a bad thing, as far as determining compatible interests, personality traits, etc. But there are drawbacks.
Shayna:
I’m well aware of that, it’s another reason I don’t do bars.
Potentially good criticisms, but I don’t think they’re true. (a) I’m not playing passive and just hoping I’ll get picked. That would be really great (fantasy), but I’m not stupid.
(b) The type of dating service may have some validity. It uses written profiles and a video interview to give some indication of the person’s interests and personality. After viewing many profiles and watching numerous videos, much of the content is pretty generic and common. It’s hard to really break through and see the person. Me, I use it to screen out some obvious incompatibilities. For instance, if she posts religious preference as christian and/or states in her profile activities like spending large amounts of time studying the bible and teaching sunday scho
You said it all. Sometimes I lie awake at night craving someone to hold, feeling the warmth of flesh, the smoothness of skin, the softness of hair. I occasionally have dreams where I feel the touch of skin. At the risk of destroying all vestiges of my masculinity, I want to be held. I want a kiss. I want to smell the wonderful smell of freshly cleaned skin. I want to wrap my arms around a woman and share the warmth of her body and feel her heartbeat. Maybe I should get a pet. [No, not THAT kind of animal affection!]
That’s sweet, but didn’t I read somewhere in MarkSerlin’s previous posts that he expressed a same desire? This seems to be a common factor in lonely Nice Guys. A couple of male friends of mine, those especially in their 20’s, who are very shy, have expressed similar things to me in that they want to be touched and held by women. When I was a dancer, I encountered quite a few guys who seemed to thrive more on the occasional touch by us girls than anything else and they weren’t the type that would, you know, grab when they weren’t supposed to grab, or where and they didn’t make a lot of lewd comments. Most of us kinda liked those type of guys, especially on Friday and Saturday nights when the places would fill up with horny, grabby men who took great delight in making all sorts of nasty comments to us and their buddies. In retrospect, those probably were ‘Nice Guys’.
I will be the first to admitt that often, nice guys get lost in the crowd and a girl might just consider them either uninterested or ‘strange’ by their actions. I know this one quiet guy who had a thing for one of the other girls and she was looking for someone nice but he kind of lost out because he did not speak up. He lost out to this other guy who badgered and sweet talked her almost every night until she moved in with him, and that did not work out all that great because within a week or so, he turned out to be a real bastard. By the time she moved out, the quiet guy had stopped coming to the bar. He should have expressed some form of interest in her to let her know that he was interested.
Do you have any Gawler in you? I think we might be related…
As for this particular girl, she’s really shy too, so I’m afraid I’ll firthenher just by asking her to let me teache her how to use he rnew camera, ro something.
What I meant my not so mobile, was that I’m still recovering from Knee surgery, and I can’t walk that well… otherwise I’d go cross country skiing with her or something.
I need low mobility activities… I’ve been considering the Royal Ontario Museum… I thought that would be fun… what say you?
Do you like science fiction? Have you ever been to a science-fiction book store? Or a convention? Think of it: All those women fans surrounded by guys who won’t ask them out because they can’t work up the nerve. But YOU will, right?
Dance lessons. There is no better way to surround yourself with beautiful women than dance lessons. It’s like the polar opposite of a DND convention. Could backfire though… there’s always the chance of feeling hopelessly outnumbered. Not that I speak from experience or anything (said the cowardly lion.)
Yeah, he posted first with similar comments. I think I “me three’d” him. Or was that “me twelve”? And maybe it is common. Sure doesn’t seem that way.
BigRoryG posted:
Is that because we have something in common or because I posted a long-winded response? No, can’t say I know of any Gawler.
Ah, makes sense now.
The museum sounds good if you can manage. Museums usually require a bit of ambling.
If it’s fear of talking (as in getting her to talk), you could try a movie. Get her used to the idea of being in your presence? Again, what am I doing giving you advice? I was too chicken to kiss my prom date good night.
jab1 suggested:
I’ve been to a few conventions. I went to Con-Troll in Houston the first two years I was here. Nice experience, but they killed it. Last time I was killed, and auctioned off. (A paltry sum not worth mentioning.) Yes, there’s a story there. Sadly, not much of one. But all the women seemed hooked up.
MadPoet suggested:
That’s actually not a bad suggestion. I just need (1) to figure out when, and (2) find a place.
I just wanted to say thanks to everyone. I appreciate the help.
Just wanted to say the Museum is a great idea! I would love to have someone ask me to go to a museum to see a special exhibit. MUCH better than a stinky old bar where you can’t have a reasonable conversation.
Good luck!
P.S. I am hearing some of this from the other side. My daughter is very, very pretty and is very interested in finding a boyfriend. So far this year she’s had 3 dates–1. pretty boy–empty head, 2. player who knew all the right moves but was a sleaze and 3. the new boy who is ok, but not “the one” (of course it’s a little hard to find “the one” in high school!) She missed a major dance (no date and she’s too shy to ask anyone out) and she is always filled with worries about why boys don’t ask her out. So, even very pretty girls are just as worried as you are–and they spend plenty of friday nights at home! So, ask, ask, ask out girls you are interested in–some will say no, but some will say yes!
This is the 21st Century. You don’t need a date to go to school dances.
I would say 90% of the people at my school don’t go to dances with dates. However, a lot of the couples do form there.
Get her to get a group of friends together and go stag. They’ll probably find some nice boys there who are too shy to axe them out.
Seriously.
As for me, there’s this girl, and i THINK she likes me.
However, she’s majorly shy, and I think if I ask her out and she’s not interested, she’ll freak and I have a business relationship with her too… we run a club together.
What should I do?
“Mmmmm, 64 slices of American Cheeeeese” – Homer Simpson
If you need a graphic solution, http:\ alk.to\Piglet
Last time I was killed, and auctioned off. (A paltry sum not worth mentioning.) Yes, there’s a story there. Sadly, not much of one. But all the women seemed hooked up.