Since this IS the Straight Dope, and not Dear Abby:
Evolutionary Psychology has something to say about this dilemma, as well.
The current thinking in evolutionary psychology is that there are two very different kinds of attraction that a human woman can feel toward a human male: The kind directed toward getting the woman pregnant with a healthy and competitive child, and the kind directed toward getting a mate to help provide for and take care of her child.
(CAVEAT: evolutionary psychology is still an infant science. It concerns itself only with those factors that can inprove reproductive success, i.e. “How many children [each containing copies of half your genes] will you have that reach the age of reproductive maturity themselves?” Thus, it deals with psychological forces that operate at a really base level and which most people would find socially repugnant if they thought such forces were contained within themselves. But I digress.)
The female drive toward impregnation with a good set of genes tends to favor men that are large, strong, healthy, and aggressive.
The female drive toward resource access and a long-term mate who will help take care of the kids tends to favor men who are kind, generous, considerate, and economically successful.
The second kind of men tend to be chosen for long-term committed relationships (including marriage), while the first kind tend to be chosen for sex. An optimal mate would, of course, be both of the above (i.e. good genes AND a good provider), but in the absence of both sets of qualities in an interested mate, a woman would be driven in two different directions at once. This can even lead to a woman “cheating” on ones mate for the sake of garnering a better gene pool.
Evolutionary psychology has something to say about men’s mate choices as well, but that’s another story.
The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.
Well, Byzantine, go see a fuckin’ shrink and have some electroshock therapy or something. I agree that date rape was never mentioned by MarkSerlin and I feel that your mention of it ‘to tell him how to get laid’ was inappropriate and I, personally, resent it. I know one friend who was date raped and it wasn’t nice and piss on you for even suggesting it. Holy Cow, take some Prozac or something. No wonder you can’t get drunk, your bitter attitude gets in the way.
I dated a nice guy for a while and he was sweet. We broke up agreeably because all we could ever be was good friends but we had fun. I had to make the first move because the poor guy was so shell shocked from rejection that he was afraid to. He was quite bitter about it all and that took some work to get over, but he made it. Some do not, you know, because they just retreat back into a shell after 10 or 20 years of trying and failing and become hardened and bitter. A friend of mine, who is now a shrink, during her college years, made an attempt to crack through the shell of such a guy and it took her two years just to break through just enough to actually see who was inside. The man was a secret artist who never displayed his work, a poet, had a history of doing some remarkably brave acts that few knew about and, an IQ of over 130!! He actually had a charming sense of humor and a naivety about REAL LIFE that she considered somewhat hampering.
It seems that this darling secretly kept thinking that there was good in all people, while trying hard to convince others that he knew there wasn’t. The ‘experiment’ ended when it turned out that he had fallen in love with her, and she not with him. She should have been smarter because the let down was awful and he just left town. I mean, just like that!! Once she told him that she couldn’t love him, he left her house and around a week later, she went to check on him and his apartment was empty and he was gone! What really got to her, and to me when she told me, was that in the back of his place she found all of his paintings and sheets of poetry all burned in a Bar-B-Q grill. Including cards she had sent him over the years. I could have kicked her so hard that she would have had a crack running sideways and I think she learned not to ‘experiment’ with people anymore. Especially nice guys. They wear their hearts on their sleeves.
I don’t know how he put up with it, because she slept with others and he knew it through their whole relationship, but it never dawned on her that he might get attached. She makes something like $200,000 a year now in Ohio as a shrink but we don’t know where he is.
You know, he really was a sweet guy. I mean, you felt comfortable talking to him because he wasn’t into all of that manly posturing that most guys get into around girls. The few times I met him with her, we talked about anything and everything all night long and there were a couple of times that I wanted to jump him because he was so sweet, but my friend had priorities there.
flypsyde
I might have to agree with you some about women taking some initiative–my experience was a long, long time ago-I’m a middle aged old broad
Many high school girls now are much more self confident and aggressive-in fact, I think some of the girls my daughters age have never even had a boy ask them out–they have been doing all the pursuing since they were kids! I know a few parents of boys who tell me that girls just pursue their boys nonstop and it embarasses the boys a lot (if an “undesirable” girl is actively pursuing them).
But regardless of what gender asks what gender out–you have to give out some signals to let someone know you’re interested–and “nice boys” and “nice girls” just don’t send out the signals–or at least not effectively or to people who might be receptive! It doesn’t do you much good to moon over somebody who aready has a boyfriend or girlfriend.
Rory-
From personal experience, once I knew what the true “nice guys” were like, there was no going back! Nice guys often amaze one for being so much more than meets the eye, and actually consist of substance and insight instead of investing only in their image. I can tell you that eventually, an intelligent, fun and incredible girl will see all you have to offer. The best thing you can do for yourself (IMHO) is to have good priorities- give girls a chance based on her intelligence/heart/ability to carry a conversation and not on popularity/size of breasts/resemblance to anyone on network TV.
NightGirl44 – take a deep breath. Re-read what I posted. I didn’t SAY Mark said that. I SAID that! Sheesh! Resent it all you like, dear, knock yourself out. Here’s a hammer.
It’s okay. Nice guys don’t need to get laid. It’s… okay… (stifled sob) …Excuse me for a moment…
There was a really good monologue from “The Line That Picked Up A Thousand Women (and how it can work for you)” by a character named Alan, that so accurately described my exact frustration at one point in my life that I sort of memorized it and, later, lent the name to one of my characters (See an excerpt here). I can’t remember it exactly anymore, but the ending goes something like this…
The upshot of being a Nice Guy, I have learned, is that it pays off in college. Take a rest from hormones for the time being. Trust me, I know; most high school kids don’t need sex on the brain more than they already have. Take solace in the fact that, while you are working your way toward future happiness, they are going to spend a good part of their adult lives watching sitcoms and not understanding that they are the types of people the shows are making fun of. Realize that, unless this is your second or higher life, and you can remember everything you learned in the last one(s), you’re probably not emotionally ready for sex. I know I wasn’t. I’m probably still not. (Don’t you hate it when bad things happen to good sentences?)
There is something you can do in the meantime, however, which helped me get through high school maintaining my sense of moral high ground. Pick yourself up a few frank, open-discussion-type documents about the various parts of sex. Stick around the SDMB, and absorb what the wise ones here have to say. Realize that 99% of the high-school people who talk about sex have absolutely no clue. Feel superior when you overhear their mindless prattle. Not only will what you learn in the meantime help you get a better understanding of the human condition, which is always a plus when finding a mate, but when you do snag someone for your very own, you’ll avoid being the subject of a sentence I heard many times from my female friends in high school, complaining about their Significant Others;
While evolutionary psychology may account for a choosing an aggressive man once or twice for a relationship, it does not explain why some women stay in abusive relationships, or continue to choose abusive mates over and over again.
The study of the psychology concerned with dysfunctional behavior has also looked at this. Psychologists describe several behavioral patterns that crop up in this situation, including what is called the “Drama Triangle”. N.B. For purposes of discussion, I am calling any long-term relationship married or unmarried, with or without children a family.
The drama triangle is a dysfunctional family interaction that replaces the bonds of love and self-esteem that is found in a healthy non-abusive family. In the drama triangle, there are three roles: The persecutor, the victim and the rescuer. Husband hits wife, who runs home to mom, then returns once the bruises have faded. Each player tends to retain the same role, but can switch roles in the blink of an eye, if a new player comes on the scene (Look at what happens with domestic violence calls with the police). Here is a greater description of the roles in the drama triangle and how to handle the role players if you find yourself in the middle of this transaction: http://www.boyceco.com/psycho_21.htm
Each player in the drama triangle gets a reward: the persecutor gets to feel as if he/she is in control or superior & gets to abdicate responsibility for his/her actions to other people. The rescuer gets to feel righteous, while subtly playing one-upsmanship against the persecutor. Most importantly, the victim gets attention, while abdicating responsibility for taking care of his or her situation, i.e. she would be happy if he would just be a better husband/father/lover/son.
My ex-husband’s family was caught in this trap. Many times, I observed my ex-MIL trying to turn a normal event into a catastrophe, or expecting and getting the worst from her daughter, or calling my ex with an easily solved problem, except that she would whine instead, as my ex would eventually get tired of trying to rescue and switch to persecutor. When I requested a divorce, I watched my husband switch from victim to persecutor to rescuer and back to victim as he tried to retain control over me.
Yes, I was also raised with abuse and some of the drama triangle. Fortunately it was very mild and not very pervasive. The occasional abusive temper tantrum if my father or mother was in a bad mood and I did something wrong. I recall clearly when my mother and I entered a conspiracy of silence over my first speeding ticket. Looking back, I would have been served much better if I had learned to defend myself against my father instead of hiding. However, whatever abuse I received as a child was outweighed many times over by the true love I received from both of my parents.
Another behavioral pattern that has been observed is the tendency for some people to choose mates with the same problems repeatedly. Psychologists state that this occurs when a person tries to correct the problems they had in their childhood through their adult relationships. The first step is always to re-create the original conditions, then attempt to correct the problems. However, if the solution the person is using is ineffective, the relationship will be abandoned and the person will seek a new person to repeat the cycle. In addition, a person who has grown up with a certain behavior such as abuse in what is supposed to be a loving relationship will perceive that behavior as a inevitable part of love and not automatically reject a relationship where such abuse occurs. The only way to correct this pattern once it has been established is to determine what conflict the person is trying to solve and what is the best way to resolve the conflict. A therapist is very helpful in this process.
A book on interpersonal skills that I have been reading deals with the ways that people handle interpersonal conflicts. It describes a continuum of behavior for this situation:
submissive - assertive - aggressive
Submissive people “demonstrate a lack of respect for their own needs and rights.” I found one section to exactly and precisely answer the question posed in the topic title. Because I wanted to share the entire section with y’all, I have made a web page so that Eutychus doesn’t have to worry about copyright problems. The section is called The Price of Nice Please note that this section not only addresses interpersonal problems but health problems as well.
The book is called “People Skills” by Robert Bolton, Ph.D.
Note that if you grew up in an abusive environment, you may not have exposure to assertive behavior and therefore it will be hard to use assertive behaviors. Training in assertiveness will help a great deal in this area.
Umm, where are you guys going out to? Just say “Hi!” It works for me. Anyway, lack of confidence? Who cares, do you think that she is going to remember who you are tommorow if she says no?
I can’t count how many times I have been told no, but I DO remember who said yes.
What about those ‘nice guys’ (here to referred as NG), who lost confidence by being meek in school. We all know what happens to anyone who won’t or cannot fight back from the typical school bully. Eventually, they get a reputation, and lower cast bullies pick on them like sharks gathering at a ship wreck. This affects their image, which affects their grades, which affects how their teachers look at and treat them, which affects how they have interpersonal relationships.
Most will develop some form of protective group to hang in with, with its own levels of aggressiveness, but forever be fearful of the stronger, much more aggressive ‘normal’ students. To them, a rejection by a girl is a major thing, especially if they KNOW she hangs with ‘normals’ and have to screw up their courage to ask her out. More than one guy I knew was devastated by a rejection after taking weeks to get up the courage to ask a girl out. It was worse if the girl made fun of him for asking.
Children can be so thoughtlessly cruel.
I knew boys in school who missed their prom and their senior skip day because they were afraid of being tormented by ‘enemies’ and embarrassed in front of all of the pretty girls and because they did not think they could get a date.
Some of them compensated by becoming great at careers they chose and became bosses who now order normal people around, others went into medicine and treat those who used to torment them, but many seem to have become underachievers, their confidence shattered, afraid to rock the boat. I’ve know some to marry girls out of a fear of being alone and have seen them suffer through hostile, unhappy lives.
You’ve probably seen them also. Slender men, or somewhat potbellied guys with forgettable faces working at $10 an hour jobs who probably drink a lot and go home to a fat, bitchy wife with several skinny or fat, mouthy kids. Some go home to fairly pretty wives, who bitch at them constantly and cheat on them whenever they can with some guy who is more aggressive and stronger and perfectly able to beat the shit out of hubby if he finds out what has been going on. Some go from bad relationship to bad relationship.
For many, from what I have seen and heard, just going up to a girl and saying ‘hi’ is a MAJOR thing. Some, who I have talked to, find an intense closeness in sexual relations that most other guys seem to either miss or say nothing about. I mean, one NG went into SUCH elaborate detail about sex that he not only surprised me, but I just had to jump his bones, and did, to our mutual satisfaction. (You ought to ask a NG how it felt for him, afterwards. Holy Shit! Will you probably get a mind bogging description.)
uhhhhmmmm… I’m pretty well esconced with a “Nice Guy”. I had much more of a hoo-ha history when I met him, and I know that he had the same trepidations of youth illustrated here. But he’s still a “Nice Guy”, 14 years later, and I’m the luckiest person to have him as my best friend. In fact, I’m gonna let him know right now. Night, Y’all…
I don’t drink, don’t smoke, don’t do drugs, and don’t particularly care to spend large amounts of time in bars (where at least two of these occur in copious amounts.) I am an atheist, so church is not the ideal place to meet women. My life currently is filled with male-dominated circumstances - career, hobbies, social nets. I want to know where and how I am to meet available women who are interested in substance over style. I have even joined a dating service, and still I cannot get a date. That’s date, as in “Would you like to go to dinner, take a stroll on the beach, see a show,…”
I really am taking to heart two comments. First was getting involved in things you are interested in and letting yourself show through - and your confidence as you do something you are comfortable doing. Second was the part about asking women out quickly instead of waiting to get to know her. (Personal experience backs that up.) But how do I exude said confidence if I don’t feel it? It’s one thing to say “I need to be confident”, or whatever, but that doesn’t change the fact that when the situation hits, and I meet someone I’m interested in, my nerves go to pot, my tongue gets twisted in knots, and I get goofy. How does one project confidence he doesn’t feel? Or gain confidence with women when faced with a legacy of rejection?
Okay, I tried to go to bed, but this thread won’t let go.
Personal experience: when in college, I moved away from home and school on a work-study program. At the end of the first week, someone threw a party for all the college students to socialize, and I went to try to meet new people. I spoke to two girls, both of whom informed me they had a boyfriend back at school. That’s cool, I can respect that. Dumb shit. Four months later both girls had dumped the originals for someone there at work. That’s what being a nice guy gets you.
Another time, I met a girl through a friend of mine - they had just gone out. Since he was a buddy, I respected “his territory”. I ran into this girl in the cafeteria later, and struck up a conversation. After that, we would often see each other and talk while eating, then go to class. I finally found out after several weeks that they were no longer together - it had, in fact, ended quickly. I liked this girl a lot. The very day I was prepared to ask her out, she greeted me by telling me about her new boyfriend. Doh! What a moron I am.
I have stumbled upon a rule that seems to work. I share it with you, for whatever it’s worth. If you don’t ask a woman out within the first three times you meet her, she moves you to a category that she doesn’t expect you to ask her out, and won’t say yes. I have no proof of this, except my experience indicates this is so. Three times seems the consistent limit.
I once had a friendship evolve into a romantic relationship - I’m not quite sure the entire dynamic, but it involved constant interaction as friends, with flirting thrown in liberally. It kinda just happened. All the rest of my experiences have been the opposite - you become friends, there’s no romantic potential. I think one key difference was timing - the one case it worked, she broke up with a long-distance boyfriend and had no other real potential suitors handy.
I was one of those meek “nice guys” in Jr. High and High School.
To give you an idea of just HOW much of an outcast I was: when NightGirl44 wrote:
… my first thought was, “You mean Senior Skip Day involved having a DATE?!?”. I honestly did not know there was a social aspect to Senior Ditch Day. It had never occurred to me before. THAT should tell you just how isolated and underaggressive I was.
After High School, I had a looooooooong uphill battle trying to have some kind of a love life in college. It took me nearly a decade to get to the point where I could say to myself, “Go ahead, ask her out – the worst she can do is say no.” So, NATURALLY, I got out of college and entered the professional world just after the whole Clarence Thomas/Anita Hill debacle hit the fan, which meant that every employer in the U.S. was now hypersensitive to even the slightest HINT of what MIGHT be construable as sexual harrassment, which meant that the worst she could do if I asked her out (or wondered if I should ask her out or got all awkward building up my courage to try and ask her out) was not merely to say “no” but to tell her superiors that I was making her feel uncomfortable whereupon I’d get called onto the carpet and a black mark would go in my personnel file, or worse. Pah. Whatever happened to the Good Old Days [TM], when awkwardness was its OWN punishment and didn’t draw all this additional fire down on you? Ladies, here’s a hint: If you tell him “no, I don’t want to go out with you,” he’ll usually stop going after you, so don’t interpret his every gesture and glance from then on as a goddamn stalking attempt! Not that I’m bitter. But I digress.
I like to THINK I’ve gotten over the romantic doldrums, but I’m living in the Silicon Valley right now, where there’s about 150 available men for every available woman. (Okay, that’s an exaggeration. There probably aren’t more than 75 available men for every available woman.) My last date was on March 20, 1999, and the last time I got laid (to bring the thread back around to the Topic: line) was October 3, 1998, with a young woman I met on-line who lived in another state and was only interested because I offered to, ahem, do a certain thing with her that none of her boyfriends had ever been willing to do before, and even then she just wanted to get together for the one weekend and never again.
I’ll think I’ll go learn more about Layout Managers in Java[TM], now.
Thought I’d bump this back and re-ask these two questions: Does anyone have a success story that didn’t take place 20 years after High School and let’s hear some comments on the Irishman’s last two posts…
you guys are wonderful, BTW. I love it here. When I grow up I’m going to move to the Straight Dope message board and buy a big house there.
Okay, since nobody’s answered, bump to the top, and add on.
And let me say beforehand that I know I come off whining pretty hard. It’s the nature of the topic and the opening up to personal experience. This is NOT how I react to people in most of my life, especially trying to meet women.
My first reaction when reading this thread was a <font size=7><font color=red>STRONG </font color> </font size> desire to do a post-by-post rebuttal/response. I figure that would pretty much hijack the thread and destine me for a round in the pit as the guest of honor. But perhaps there are a few points I still want to make.
BigRoryG - I caught that the real issue wasn’t “How do I get laid?”, but rather “Why can’t I get a date?” Even if some of the others missed that because of your OP heading. And physical issues aren’t it. I’ve seen plenty of couples with a beautiful woman and a fat, ugly guy. Sure, in HS it may play a role, but that’s not the ultimate hurdle.
Soup:
(a) Women all* claim they want a long term relationship. How come they won’t date the guys who are looking for the same thing?
*(all is a subjective term - there are plenty of women who also want a quick fling, etc)
(b) That’s the problem - I can’t get them to even agree to go out on a date so we can hang and enjoy each other’s company and find out if we are compatible. I’m not looking to settle down - I’m looking for someone to go out with at least once.
kunilou:
You hit it on the mark there.
handy:
And those would be…?
TennHippie:
It does? That’s news to me (been out of college 5 years now.)
Fretful Porpentine:
Who say’s it’s an act? I’m not acting. I don’t do anything to merely get a woman into bed (maybe I should). I’m an all around nice, friendly, pleasant, upbeat, considerate, thoughtful, sensitive man. If I bring a woman flowers, it’s a gesture (and I don’t do it constantly). Maybe the women think it’s an act, and are suspicious.
tetzel1517:
Now this is helpful. You’ve succinctly described the exact problems I have, and offered good advice, something I’ve discovered on my own.
I’ll elaborate. What is wrong with wanting to get to know a person first, before asking her out? Finding out a few things, like common interests, major incompatibilities, etc. For instance, does she smoke? Is she a strongly religious person, who will not be interested in an atheist? Is she a partier, the type to always want to go to clubs on weekends? Suppose we know each other from work. Why must I ask her out right away? Why not get acquainted through work social functions, and if there’s some common interests and compatibility, then see if she’s interested in a date? Doesn’t work. It seems to me like a great idea, but that’s not how women operate. If you don’t come on to them right away, they assume you’re not dating material.
smilingjaws:
This is not the case. Yes, I’ve been attracted to the hot babes, but I’ve also asked out several women who were ordinary looking. They won’t go out with me either. The only women who seem interested in going out with me are:
a) Older married women (no, I don’t get laid by them either, they just tell me how great I am and that women my age are idiots).
b) Fat, ugly women with no self-esteem. (I don’t mean to be rude, but there’s no polite way to say that.) And yes, I see the connection with self-esteem.
Not entirely off the mark.
What constitutes good aggressiveness when pursuing a date, and what constitutes “Man, buy a clue, I don’t want anything to do with you.”?
dlv:
Yes. They’re either married, are looking for someone older than themselves, or can’t get over having a child my age. (Or live 1000 miles away and we only communicate by email.)
BigRoryG:
Absolutely. I’ve encountered the awkwardness of a post-rejection friendship. I know all about the wishing someone would give you clear signs. Believe me, I can misread signs.
Some other thread I mentioned asking out women who were just being friendly. There was a waitress who seemed to be paying a lot of attention to me, being alone on a Friday night eating out. Turns out she was just being polite, 'cause she had a boyfriend already. And there’s the woman I asked out because I didn’t realize she was married.
O.K., I actually DO know of a Nice Guy who managed to get a goof thing going before leaving high school BUT he suddenly decided to change his lifestyle a bit. He started becoming more aggressive in asking girls out, though I will say that the first several rejections set him back a bit, but he ‘girded his loins’ and went back at it.
After his first several dates, during which he made most of his mistakes, he became more confident. Being a Nice Guy, with the usual Nice Guy past of reading all of those books about how to treat women and stuff, he surprised some of the girls by actually asking them what they wanted to do and they were pleased to find him considerate when they went out. (He did not have that juvenile tendency to come across friends on a date and wander off for a time to be with the boyz, leaving the girl to kind of ‘tag’ along.)
He actually kept a list of things to do on a date – back then, when bowling was an acceptable evening out and after a movie one could go get a burger and shake.
He managed, by his senior year, to develop a really significant other and was doing the going steady thing and seemed quite happy – but, as I said, he FORCED himself into, for him, a major personality change. I know those initial rejections were hard for him to take – I think he had something like 8 in a row, but he kept on asking girls out. Not every date was pleasant and there were several girls he dated only once and some he came back wishing he had not asked out at all.
He got involved in at least one ‘spite’ date, where the girl dated him to make her ‘ex’- boyfriend jealous and THAT almost got his ass beat.
Now, this was years ago, when girls were not all that career oriented and looking for potential husband material and times have changed just a tad.
