It seems to me that, pronouns aside, you just described Trump to a gold-plated “T”. Especially during the debates; he frowned throughout each one, while her shoulder-wiggle and smile became an internet sensation. To be fair, his performance was pretty damn memorable, of course- who could ever forget “sniff” and “Wrong!”? She looked like an adult, he looked like a petulant child.
I think you are missing the point of this thread…why Hillary is hated (though I think disliked is the bigger picture and more interesting discussion).
Trump being just a hated/disliked and having the same or worse traits does not magically make her’s go away.
Why is Trump hated is the next thread over (or half this board : ) )
While pretty much all of the above are reasons that she is vilified, the fact is, that she pretty much slammed people where they lived.
The “stay home and bake cookies” comment was a slap in the face to SAHMs back in teh nineties. The fact that she outright told miners and steelworkers that she was going to put them out of work was another slap. Both hit working class whites, a demographic that has been traditionally Democratic in politics, with the impression that the Dems no longer were going to go to bat for them.
Meanwhile, the Republicans got into bed even more with the Evangelical Christians, a large subset of that demographic, to further pull them away.
Personally, I voted for her, but held my nose while doing it. I felt that both of her primary opponents were far more electable. I most certainly didn’t want DJT to be nominating two or three of the Supremes.
I didn’t say it did. My point is that every one of the reasons given for why she’s hated so much applies doubly so to Trump, so why the hatred for her specifically? Why are those traits acceptable for Trump, but not for Hillary?
True. The Clintons also burned organized labor and small businesses with their weird economic policies. Intentionally creating monopolies, and claiming credit for job growth in what were then called “McJobs.”
I just read an article that mentions Bill Clinton’s pro-monopolist economics, which I infer trace back to his education at Yale:
Eventually the Clintons became “those two assholes.” The economic left had cause to hate them, and they couldn’t run right. Remember that Bill never came close to a popular majority of the vote. People voted for Ross Perot in great numbers.
Pretty much Larry Borgias post word for word. Plus on a personal level the fact that we were going to have another Clinton running for POTUS smacked of an arrogance and entitlement that beggared the imagination. Two Bushes was a shitshow in the end. And now we’re going to have Clinton redux?
It was overwhelmingly obvious that sticking with her philandering hound of a husband was part of a calculated long 6game by her to become the President of the United States. I voted for her because I felt she was the lesser of two evils but honestly it was insanely stupid of the DNC to run her for President. It’s like no one even bothered to wonder about how widely reviled she was even by women and members of the Democratic Party. The left was in an Echo chamber on this issue and some are still there.
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yes, in fact here it was the speeches of Michelle Obama that people found the most moving and that is not even in their native language. Michelle Obama has the genuine charisma and it comes through as an easy and natural thing for her.
I think this is key. Charisma. A lot of people think Hillary doesn’t have it. Sure she’s competent and capable, but she’s awkward in large crowds and campaigning. She’s a policy wonk who prefers more intimate settings and is not good in larger settings. People who see her up close and personal love her, but the public can’t do that and have to take her in from afar. She knows a lot of situations aren’t just black and white and wants to explain the grey areas, while a lot of America just wants a pithy catchphrase. Bill has charisma and was still popular in his second term even after impeachment. I’ll bet a lot of people on the left who weren’t willing to vote for Hillary would have been willing to vote for him if he could have somehow been on the ballot this time around.
Also, the right hates the Obamas and threw all kinds of accusations at them, including stupid birther stuff and spawn of Satan crap. But Obama has major charisma and fired up the base enough to elect him twice. As we’ve seen in multiple elections, if the Dem voters aren’t feeling a candidate enough, they ain’t making the effort to vote for them
I hated the Clintons in the 90s because of all the scandals that happened. I started to moderate some after that and started to like Hillary when she became Senator and then SoS. But even if one likes Clinton well enough, you have to admit she is her own worst enemy. She gets in her own way much too often, and that plus the lack of charisma make people not like her very much. I think a lot of it is misogny combined with personality, as Bill manages to remain popular and very well-liked among the base even given his own missteps. But Hillary doesn’t help herself. The email server was such a stupid move on optics alone. Given all the crap that’s been thrown at her over the years, she should have been above board and very careful, yet she wasn’t. If she still wanted to run for public office, she shouldn’t have been so cozy with Wall Street for instance. The Clintons have an element of sleaze attached to them that even if they’ve never been charged with corruption, makes a lot of people feel they are sleazy.
There’s also the element that Hillary is perceived to be inauthentic. Hillary kept her maiden name and acted and dressed a certain way that appeared to turn off a lot of Arkansans when Bill became governor. When Bill lost the governorship after his first term, Hillary dropped her maiden name and toned down the way she dressed and acted, and Bill then won a few more terms. That’s just one example of many where she seemed to modify herself to get past people rejecting her.
It comes down to this I guess: the right wing is going to hate on the Democrats and spew all kinds of crap at them and about them. That’s a given and the more charismatic candidates are probably going to manage to survive it. But if even many Democrats are going to hate the particular person, then there’s a problem. And with Hillary, a lot of Democrats understood that she was capable, but they didn’t like her very much. And when you can’t fire up the Democratic base, the Democrats lose.
In another thread I observed, it is hard to give a meaning to the word ‘base’ (if I understand the meaning of the word) if it means the variable voter who you need to seduce.
The collapse of the level of the voting for Mrs Clinton I think showed a ‘base’ that will turn out for any Democratic party candidate. It is a base that seems similar to the Republican base in these numbers (and it seems to be the continuous case when I have looked at the bad years the Democratic party has had in the presidential elections). It is the ideological base that will never vote for the other party.
Then there is the variable voters group that you must seduce to motivate to get out, and they seem most motivated, most inclined to come out for your party when you have the charismatic candidate. There seems not a great ideological consistency in the pure political terms in those who have won that - a personality consistency however is clear, of a strong charismatic and warm emotional personality that makes this group feel like there will be engagement and protection for them. This is my sensation after spending this week reading and looking at the old videos - it is a fascinating history.
It is without a doubt that there is some politics there as well, but the years of great success for motivating this pool seem to be on the Charismatic Character, not the specific ideology of the Character that is the Candidate.
I wonder if the lesson will be learned?
(of course on this board where the simplest human interactions and traditions of exchanging seem to often evoke the puzzlement it is sure it will not be accepted)
Ramira, no, I think you are right about a certain segment of the Democratic party only voting when there is a charismatic candidate running. I think a lot of the board accepts that premise. I don’t think the Democrats will ever learn how to solve it.
Just to point out, Hillary seems to go up in popularity and being liked when she’s actually working at a job than when she’s running for a job. As many have said, she’s bad at campaigning, which then contributes to her unlikeability
I hate Hillary because she is a criminal who was treated as if she’s above the law.
I hate Obama because he is a simply a post turtle.
I hate illegal immigrants because they are pestilence on our society.
I REALLY HATE idiot liberals who are willfully ignorant of the FACTS surrounding these issues.
I am the bogeyman? Riiiiight. I’ll proudly wear that label here. :rolleyes:
Clinton’s conference call with donors on Saturday exemplifies why she has earned the dislike of so many people.
You see, her election defeat has nothing to do with her, it’s Jim Comey’s fault. You see, Comey exonerated her in the e-mail mess, but then he re-invigorated the scandal and (even worse!) exonerated her again.
"Clinton told her supporters on Saturday that her team had drafted a memo that looked at the changing opinion polls leading up to the election and that the letter from Comey proved to be a turning point. She said Comey’s decision to go public with the renewed examination of her email server had caused an erosion of support in the upper Midwest, according to three people familiar with the call…
While the second letter cleared her of wrongdoing, Clinton said that it reinforced to Trump’s supporters that the system was rigged in her favor and motivated them to mobilize on Election Day.
Yes, it’s Comey, Comey, Comey.
Also, Trump did nothing but attack her over the last four days of the campaign!
Introspection, self-awareness and a sense of irony have never been among Clinton’s virtues.
Don’t worry though, her campaign for 2020 has likely already begun.
I did not say a “segment of the Democratic party” as there is no data for me to understand this variable pool of the voters as being of the political party. Probably in some portions, but it can only be said clearly from the data that it is a variable pool that does seem to get motivated in large numbers when the charismatic candidate is put forth and by the swings it seems that they are not ideological but they are likely populist.
this is only from trying to understand the numerical data and without trying to be ideological or partisan of any party among you americans.
actually from the frothy post you made, it would be a label that is merited, as there are indeed the blindly hateful.
I think it is fair to say that there is some degree of the truth in the excuse making… from afar I thought it was dangerous and disturbing to have any of the security services making the pronouncements right before the elections. This is a dangerous thing prone to the partisan manipulations.
but see this summary it says there is no responsibility taking for why such small moves of reinforcement of the enthusiasm or the motivation hurt so badly or why her performance looks so very bad as compared to her predecessor who was both black and had that funny muslim sounding name, since the Muslims are so popular in the USA…
Cite?
For me it’s partly because she comes across as very arrogant and I cannot stand arrogance from anyone. Even though she wasn’t found guilty of anything the idea of her using a private server while holding the position of Sec of State is inconceivable to me. It seems as though the Clintons are somehow above the law and it will be interesting how the investigation into their charity turns out. I am also horrified that I keep seeing the headline how she blames Comey for her loss. Put on your big girl pantsuit Hillary and take responsibility for your own actions. Emails, Benghazi, pay to play, ignoring Wisconsin and not spending enough time in Michigan because you took the win for granted, etc. That, I think is a real clincher for me, it drives me crazy when people refuse to be responsible for their own actions and behavior. Btw, I am a woman who doesn’t care what the gender of the president is.
That is exactly what I did on this election, and quite honestly, being that Trump got in, it did not pay off.
This, only it goes further for me.
Way back when, when Bill was running for president, I kept hearing about this great new man. He was going to save the world, lift the downtrodden, make life worth living, and he was handsome and sexy too.
I was working one full time and two part time jobs at the time, watching TV and keeping up with politics wasn’t happening for me.
One day I was at my friend’s house, she as a huge Clinton fan. He came on TV and she was quick to point him out.
I took one look at his face and saw every lying, cheating, sneaky, SOBing, Good Ole’ Boy I had ever known all rolled up into one. Then when he spoke! OMG! That voice! Like nails on a chalkboard.
I could not see the appeal. Handsome and sexy?
I looked at my friend and said that man would sell his own mama if the price was right!
The whole Monica thing did not surprise me at all.
Did not surprise me that he cheated, no surprise that he tried to deny it, no surprise that he tried to make her out to be some kind of crazed stalker, no surprise that he tried to say oral sex isn’t sex.
He is not just a man who cheats, he is a serial cheater. No respect for women, no respect for his wife, no respect for his daughter. He didn’t have an affair, he didn’t fall in love, he didn’t just mess up, he is a cheater, with no remorse, no shame.
At the time the whole Monica bullshit was going on, a friend was dealing with her cheating husband. Another serial cheater. She could live in denial until he got another woman pregnant. Now she has to face it, and like most women whose husbands cheat her first thought was what was wrong with her.
Was she not pretty enough? Was she too fat? What was she doing wrong? Why wasn’t she good enough for him?
To sit with a friend and listen to her cry, and to down herself, and lose herself, her self esteem, feeling like she failed and then after convincing her that it’s not her, it’s him - then she questions why she is so stupid to have loved him and what is wrong with her that she has such poor judgement.
IMO, serial cheating is a form of abuse. It may not be physical, but it’s mental and emotional abuse. The man knows what he is doing, and he doesn’t care.
My friend, like many other women in her position, felt like she couldn’t leave her husband. They had two kids and he made the money. She had nowhere to go and felt she couldn’t make it on her own.
Then I look at Hillary, who is smarter and stronger than her husband. She doesn’t need him, but yet she chose to stay and put up with the abuse. She not only tolerated his abuse and the public humiliation, but she defended him and made excuses for him.
I know she is an adult and she can make her own decision, but I felt like she let down every woman out there who is dealing with abuse. If she, as a rich powerful woman, Can’t or won’t leave her abusive husband, what message does that send to the women who are not rich and not powerful, who depend on their husbands financially?
Maybe rightly, maybe wrongly, but I felt like her actions were a slap in the face to every woman I know who has been in an abusive relationship.
How would people feel if instead of cheating, he slapped her around?
Abuse is abuse.
I can feel sorry for women who feel trapped, and I will do whatever it takes to help them out of the situation.
Hillary isn’t trapped, and I can’t respect any woman who stays in an abusive situation by choice. How can I trust her to make good decisions that will affect my life when IMO she can’t even make good decisions for her own?
My take on her scenario is very different than yours. You’re looking a this at this as if she is an abused women who was wronged by her husband and did not have the strength to leave. He was a hound from the very beginning. She knew perfectly well from the start he was putting his penis in every vagina that would stand still. His cheating was epic and well known in their circle. He was a player before they met and after they married. She knew this.
She was a well paid attorney even back in the day and could have left at any time and supported herself. She tolerated his cheating as long as he was on the path to power. I don’t think she gave a rat’s ass about his screwing Monica, it was that he got caught and embarrassed and screwed himself politically that infuriated her.
IMO in looking back the Presidency was always the long game for her. Every decision and every step along the way was for this ultimate brass ring. She was a mediocre candidate and used her long term horsepower to keep coming back to the well. She was determined to be POTUS. So good for her but I can’t really muster a lot of sympathy for her as a “trapped” women. She had options and her decisions to stay close to the center of political power regardless of his behavior were deliberate and calculated with a long term goal in mind.
This part is true.
Just a nitpick, but I wonder if she decided to be POTUS before the original plan of Bill supplies the charm and she provides the policy fell apart.
She was supposed to put forth Hillarycare and it was going to pass and everything was going to be wonderful. But it turned out that Bill’s political savvy (and he certainly has that in spades) and charm worked to get him re-elected, and not to get legislation passed. Then Bill’s constant prevarications and zipper problems meant he had no political capital to spend on anything but staying in office.
It was then that they came to a new arrangement - now she was going to be POTUS, and she was going to achieve the policies that he couldn’t. So she ran for the Senate, and took her first shot at the Presidency. Same advantages - solid establishment choice, Bill’s abilities as a fund-raiser, policy wonk - but a sense of entitlement instead of charisma. So she lost to Obama. And went back doggedly to work, became SoS to enhance her foreign policy credentials. and then 2016 was going to be Her Year. And (part of) the problem was that she was feeling even more entitled. Sort of “I’ve worked harder than you, I’m smarter than you, I’ve told you everything you need to know - now vote for me, dammit!”
Only, not.
I think something like this happened during Bill’s first term as governor. That was back when she was Hillary Rodham. The more she got out among the people, the less popular she was. So she changed her public name to Hillary Clinton, and went off to the Rose Law Firm to make the money while Bill worked out his insecurities by seeking validation in poll numbers and adultery.
And now, she’s done. Everything was right there in front of her for the grasping. And it was all snatched away. By Donald Fucking Trump, the reality TV star, with no policies and no qualifications.
I’d say “close, but no cigar”, but Monica Lewinsky jokes are pretty out-of-date.
Regards,
Shodan