Why must men pretend they don't want to sleep with women?

In My Humble Opinion
161

[QUOTE=you with the face]
Perhaps because I wasn’t talking about pretenses and games when I was refering to an early relationship. You may have also noticed that I wasn’t advocating or validating any particular form of behavior either. I was saying that I understand why frankness may be intimidating when you don’t know the other person that well. Not after a dozen-so encounters, though. Being coy at that point seems lame and juvenile to me. Why this has got you on the defensive so much, I haven’t a clue.
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Now you’re backpedaling. You’ve already conceded . . . you have no leg to stand on.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
Actually, read back over the thread and you’ll see that there is a range of opinions in this thread. Some guys seem to agree with you. Many don’t think its so cut and dry. Others seem to just plain ole disagree. A lot of women who’ve posted take issue with your comments, too, and have made reference to men who don’t seem to feel the need to pretend anything. A couple can’t seem to decide whether you’re just stating the obvious (men want to have sex with women) or are advocating outright deception.
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Let’s make a poll to decide . . . only we need to agree on the poll question for fairness before posting.

This is my suggested poll question: “Generally speaking, do you think social conventions exist in which men must pretend that they are not interested in sex with the object of their affection in order to have sex, and that these social conventions apply to the majority of relationships, especially at the beginning?”

The question should be asked in two polls, one for men to answer, and one for women to answer, so that we have information regarding how many of each gender answered.

Your thoughts?

162

[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
Dude, that’s NOT RAPE then! If you “let her win”, if you consent, guess what:

IT IS NOT FUCKING RAPE!!!
:rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]

Okay, let’s take the same scenario and change it. I’m in a loving relationship with my wife, and Meg Ryan sneaks into my house when my wife is gone. She ties me up while I’m sleeping. The last thing I want is to be unfaithful to my wife, because I love her so much. Meg Ryan forces me to have sex with her, the whole while I’m screaming “I DO NOT CONSENT!! I LOVE MY WIFE!!” But Meg rapes me anyway.

Well . . . that’s rape. There’s nothing I could do, Meg tied me up as I slept and then forced me to have sex. I would not mind that rape, and it wasn’t my fault.

163

[QUOTE=Roboto]
Now you’re backpedaling. You’ve already conceded . . . you have no leg to stand on.
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Please. Your insistence that my comment proves you right is sheer desperation.

Kind of like your game.

That’s not what you’ve been really arguing in this thread, so I object to this phrasing. I seriously doubt most men will agree that they “pretend that they are not interested in sex”. That suggests that if a woman made an offer, he’d turn it down, and that’s not what you’re saying at all. So here’s your thesis as I see it formed into a question.

“True or false: most men have to pretend to like a woman for non-sexual reasons in order to get her to agree to go to bed with him.”

What do you think about this? I think we should limit this question to men because admittedly if a man is good at pretending, then the woman will not know, which makes her an unreliable judge. Which is why I’ve been arguing the position of a woman who sees men being honest (in the way that you say they can’t can’t be) and being quite successful at it.

164

[QUOTE=you with the face]
Please. Your insistence that my comment proves you right is sheer desperation.
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You’re failure to acknowledge that you have negated yourself is the reason for my insistence.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
Kind of like your game.
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Your use of ad hominem attacks proves your desperation.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
That’s not what you’ve been really arguing in this thread, so I object to this phrasing. I seriously doubt most men will agree that they “pretend that they are not interested in sex”.
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What is the title of the thread? “Why must men pretend they don’t want to sleep with women?” That’s why we’re having the poll . . . we disagree and will let the majority decide. My question absolutely represents exactly what I’ve been arguing.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
That suggests that if a woman made an offer, he’d turn it down, and that’s not what you’re saying at all.
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That is not what it suggests at all . . . ? Why do you think that?

[QUOTE=you with the face]
So here’s your thesis as I see it formed into a question.

“True or false: most men have to pretend to like a woman for non-sexual reasons in order to get her to agree to go to bed with him.”
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That’s not what my thesis has been. We haven’t been discussing “pretending to like someone,” we’ve been talking about the pretenses of watching a movie or listening to a cd.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
I think we should limit this question to men because admittedly if a man is good at pretending, then the woman will not know, which makes her an unreliable judge.
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How can you even think this would be a representative sample, especially after chastising me for only providing “one” female example?

I’d like clarification of your objection to my proposed question, as I honestly to do not understand. I continue to suggest we use my question.

165

You guys are really milking the chimp here.

166

[QUOTE=Roboto]
That is not what it suggests at all . . . ? Why do you think that?
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I dunno. Maybe because when you pretend to not want something, that kind of implies that whenever that something is offered, you’re going to pretend to not want it. Like if I was going to pretend that I don’t want to eat pizza, it means that if I go to a restaurant and see pizza on the menu, I’m gonna be like “I don’t want to eat that pizza.”

Right. You’re pretending that you enjoy her nonsexual company so much that you’re inviting her to watch movies instead of having sex. That’s not the same thing as pretending not to want to sleep with her. Appreciate the distinction and perhaps you’ll understand why you phrasing the question as you have will probably not produce the result that you expect.

Hey buddy, I was helping you out. Most women will probably object to the idea that men have to pretend about anything. But go ahead and poll them, too. I’m interested in seeing the responses you get.

167

[QUOTE=Roboto]
… Meg Ryan forces me to have sex with her, the whole while I’m screaming “I DO NOT CONSENT!! I LOVE MY WIFE!!” But Meg rapes me anyway.

Well . . . that’s rape. There’s nothing I could do, Meg tied me up as I slept and then forced me to have sex. I would not mind that rape, and it wasn’t my fault.
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Is this still your idea of humor?

Now take away Meg Ryan, okay? You don’t get to choose the person. Let’s make it…your girlfriend. Or if you prefer, a complete stranger. Only suddenly she’s turned into a psychobitch. She outweighs you by anywhere from 50-100 lbs, is 6-12" taller than you, and is more than strong enough to render you immobile. Add in a bucket of adrenaline, terror, panic, desperation, powerlessness, humiliation, a real fear of being killed, and excrutiating pain. But no pleasure. You certainly don’t get an orgasm or, by the way, any lubricant. I’d add in the risk of pregnancy, but in your case we’ll have to drop that bit.

If you can honestly still tell me you “wouldn’t mind it,” then you have one of the stranger personalities I’ve ever encountered. And I wish you very good luck in life, but I sincerely hope I never meet you.

168

[QUOTE=you with the face]
I dunno. Maybe because when you pretend to not want something, that kind of implies that whenever that something is offered, you’re going to pretend to not want it. Like if I was going to pretend that I don’t want to eat pizza, it means that if I go to a restaurant and see pizza on the menu, I’m gonna be like “I don’t want to eat that pizza.”
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The very essence of my OP is that you SPECIFICALLY to pretend to not want sex in order to get it . . . that’s the whole point. Your pizza analogy does not apply, because we’re not talking about pizza.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
Right. You’re pretending that you enjoy her nonsexual company so much that you’re inviting her to watch movies instead of having sex. That’s not the same thing as pretending not to want to sleep with her.
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Yes . . . it is. That’s the whole point. That’s how you pretend . . . by inviting her to do something else.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
Appreciate the distinction and perhaps you’ll understand why you phrasing the question as you have will probably not produce the result that you expect.
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Now here is the pot calling the kettle black . . . look at your proposed question . . . you completely tried skew it in your favor, especially with this not-so-subtle change: “most men have to pretend to like a woman for non-sexual reasons” . . . it’s the “pretend TO LIKE A WOMAN.” You are trying to change the false pretense to a generic “like” or “dislike” question, which is not the issue, and was designed to produce your desired result.

Here’s the compromise . . . we take it back to the OP. This is fair . . . how can anything reflect my OP better than my OP itself?

Q: Do you agree with the statement by Neil Strauss, author of The Game, that most relationships begin with the man pretending that he does not want to have sex with the woman?

169

[QUOTE=Chotii]
Is this still your idea of humor?

Now take away Meg Ryan, okay? You don’t get to choose the person. Let’s make it…your girlfriend. Or if you prefer, a complete stranger. Only suddenly she’s turned into a psychobitch. She outweighs you by anywhere from 50-100 lbs, is 6-12" taller than you, and is more than strong enough to render you immobile. Add in a bucket of adrenaline, terror, panic, desperation, powerlessness, humiliation, a real fear of being killed, and excrutiating pain. But no pleasure. You certainly don’t get an orgasm or, by the way, any lubricant. I’d add in the risk of pregnancy, but in your case we’ll have to drop that bit.

If you can honestly still tell me you “wouldn’t mind it,” then you have one of the stranger personalities I’ve ever encountered. And I wish you very good luck in life, but I sincerely hope I never meet you.
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Yes . . . this is still my idea of humor. Yes . . . this this still your complete lack of humor. You keep trying to tell me how much I’d hate to be raped, and I’m continuing to tell you that it depends on who rapes me, and how. I’m allowed to not mind if Meg Ryan rapes me. I’m allowed to not mind if Charlize Theron rapes me. You keep telling me “no! you won’t like it!” but from what I can tell of their personalities, I would be willing to take that risk. They both seem like sweet girls, and I don’t think either of the two would sodomize me or slit my throat. Who knows . . . maybe the only reason they were raping me was because a theif at their house had a gun to a family member’s head, and demanded that she rape me or the family member dies. In that scenario, either Meg or Charlize might even pretend to be mean but actually be very careful although a bit on the rough side. No lube? Not concerned.

The point is, rather than cower from your fictional rape scenario, I’m going to embrace my fictional rape scenario.

But, for your emotional well-being . . . here it is:

shudders cowers cries “STOP IT MEG, I FUCKING SAID I DON’T CONSENT!!” kicks screams “AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!”

170

[QUOTE=Roboto]
shudders cowers cries “STOP IT MEG, I FUCKING SAID I DON’T CONSENT!!” kicks screams “AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!”
[/QUOTE]

Much as I hate to admit it, this actually sort of cracked me up.

Furthermore, as entertaining as it is to watch you and you with the face talk past each other, I feel compelled to submit that personally, I prefer if a guy doesn’t lie to me about wanting sex. Obviously he wants sex, otherwise he wouldn’t have invited me out.

Actually, my ex and I had a running gag involving him calling me up and saying “I’m coming over for some fried-chicken and some sex!” and I would say “Great! But skip the fried-chicken!”

Anyhow - maybe the women you date like to play the “Lets watch a movie” game. I’m a woman, I don’t. So, a guy doesn’t need to pretend that he doesn’t want sex, at least not with me.

Now, do most women want to play games? Maybe. But maybe you’re just dating the wrong women.

171

[QUOTE=Roboto]
The very essence of my OP is that you SPECIFICALLY to pretend to not want sex in order to get it . . . that’s the whole point. Your pizza analogy does not apply, because we’re not talking about pizza.
[/quote]

Okay whatever. Go on and post your poll question exactly as you have worded it. I’m really interested in seeing how many men say that they pretend not to want to have sex with their women of interest. I don’t think I’ve ever come across such a guy.

Call me crazy, but I think that if anyone engages in such behavior, it’s women. Where I’m from the whole coy “pretending to not want sex” thing is called playing hard to get. And that’s what women do, generally speaking. Not men.

172

[QUOTE=Arac]
It does raise some interesting questions. Discounting sodomy, can a woman rape a man in any meaningful way? […] I just don’t think I’d feel like I’d been ‘raped’.
[/QUOTE]
This question isn’t nearly so hypothetical for me as it is for you, and the answer is (wow, big surprise!) “yes.”

Plenty of people have rape fantasies, and that’s fine. Don’t confuse they way you might imagine you’d feel in such a situation with the way you’d actually feel if someone held you down and forced you to have sex with them – even if they had XX chromosomes. It’s not something that’s that easy to shrug off.

173

Oh, and Roboto?

Not that funny.

174

[QUOTE=you with the face]
Okay whatever. Go on and post your poll question exactly as you have worded it. I’m really interested in seeing how many men say that they pretend not to want to have sex with their women of interest. I don’t think I’ve ever come across such a guy.

Call me crazy, but I think that if anyone engages in such behavior, it’s women. Where I’m from the whole coy “pretending to not want sex” thing is called playing hard to get. And that’s what women do, generally speaking. Not men.
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I re-read my quuestion, and it sucks. Too clinical. How about the compromise question?

175

[QUOTE=Larry Mudd]
Oh, and Roboto?

Not that funny.
[/QUOTE]

To each their own. Your post didn’t exactly leave me in stitches.

176

[QUOTE=Roboto]
I re-read my quuestion, and it sucks. Too clinical. How about the compromise question?
[/QUOTE]

Knock yourself out.

177

[QUOTE=Roboto]
To each their own. Your post didn’t exactly leave me in stitches.
[/QUOTE]
I hope, for your sake, that you’re a troll and not just an utter cunt.

178

[QUOTE=Larry Mudd]
I hope, for your sake, that you’re a troll and not just an utter cunt.
[/QUOTE]

Sheesh, Larry! This is not the Pit.

That said, I see that this thread has degenerated into, as mentioned above, two people talking past each other and committing borderline attacks on each other, and I am, quite honestly, tired of monitoring it.

Roboto, a word: it might be worth your while to explore the rest of the SDMB. If you’re only here to fight, this might not be the place for you.
Thread closed.