Why must men pretend they don't want to sleep with women?

In My Humble Opinion
141

[QUOTE=dahfisheroo]
Chotii, I have 5 kids, the oldest is 11. We run a contracting business. I coach volleyball, my husband coaches football. We volunteer. I am going back to college in January. We have no paid help for anything.(Not that I want to, just in case anyone assumed.) In addition to having no quitting time because of the kids, we have no quitting time because of owning our own business. Yet, we still make an effort. We are in the good habit of sex. The chores are always going to be there. Work is always going to be there. The kids are always going to be there. And he is never going to <insert husband’s shortcomings here>, whether or not I have sex with him. I’m not going to wait for all those things to change, in order to have sex. Why would I deny myself? Why would I put sex last?
And yeah, I’m tired, too. But I try to get to bed by 10, and up at 630. Between 630 and 10, plenty of opportunities, if you look hard enough.
[/QUOTE]

Why would you deny yourself? If you didn’t actually want to have sex, then not having any wouldn’t be denying yourself, would it?

Sex every day is only a “good habit” if both of you have sufficiently high libidos, and sufficiently high energy to enjoy it every day (or at least, every second day). If you do, then I’m happy for you. But there’s lots and lots of women whose libidos are completely whacked by even one child, let alone five. These women (or should I say…“we”) have to do this thing we call “compromise” - we have sex more often than we want to either because our SOs kinda like it, or just because it’s good for our relationship. That’s not going to stop us being amazed in the presence of someone in the same boat who actually still WANTS to do it every day

142

[QUOTE=JRDelirious]
Oh, and men most definitely CAN say “no thanks” and decide we can take it or leave it on the sex part. Really.
[/QUOTE]

Nope, me too. 2 - 3 years ago I was briefly seeing a 20-year-old woman, I was 37 at the time, and initially thought this was great. For the record, she approached (hit on) me first, not the other way around. I never had sex with her, and I thank God to this day that I didn’t. She was mentally unbalanced, with a nasty combination of bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder. She was constantly begging me for sex. “Sleep with me! Pleeeeease?” At first I declined, as I felt like I would be taking advantage of her, but after a while it was just pathetic and unattractive.

It didn’t take me long to discover that she would put out for any guy who smiled at her, and did so frequently while we were “together”. I started to worry that if I did have sex with her (and I would have used a condom if I did), she would promptly run out and offer herself as the centerpiece of a gangbang in an effort to get pregnant, and then tell me I was the father. I met her dad once. He had the same first name as me, and when she was growing up he was in the same line of work as me (it turned out we had done the same job in the same place, but at different times), and I discovered we had almost identical personalities. Made me go “hmmmm.”

I finally managed to break it off with her (her mental problems made this a much more complicated process than you might expect). Some time after we ended the relationship, she called me up and asked, “If I get pregnant with another guy, will you be the baby’s father figure?” “Um, nooooo …”

143

[QUOTE=Phase42]
Nope, me too. 2 - 3 years ago I was briefly seeing a 20-year-old woman, I was 37 at the time, and initially thought this was great. For the record, she approached (hit on) me first, not the other way around. I never had sex with her, and I thank God to this day that I didn’t. She was mentally unbalanced, with a nasty combination of bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder. She was constantly begging me for sex. “Sleep with me! Pleeeeease?” At first I declined, as I felt like I would be taking advantage of her, but after a while it was just pathetic and unattractive.

It didn’t take me long to discover that she would put out for any guy who smiled at her, and did so frequently while we were “together”. I started to worry that if I did have sex with her (and I would have used a condom if I did), she would promptly run out and offer herself as the centerpiece of a gangbang in an effort to get pregnant, and then tell me I was the father. I met her dad once. He had the same first name as me, and when she was growing up he was in the same line of work as me (it turned out we had done the same job in the same place, but at different times), and I discovered we had almost identical personalities. Made me go “hmmmm.”

I finally managed to break it off with her (her mental problems made this a much more complicated process than you might expect). Some time after we ended the relationship, she called me up and asked, “If I get pregnant with another guy, will you be the baby’s father figure?” “Um, nooooo …”
[/QUOTE]

Good story :slight_smile:

144

[QUOTE=dahfisheroo]
… Yet, we still make an effort. We are in the good habit of sex. The chores are always going to be there. Work is always going to be there. The kids are always going to be there. And he is never going to <insert husband’s shortcomings here>, whether or not I have sex with him. I’m not going to wait for all those things to change, in order to have sex. Why would I deny myself? Why would I put sex last?
And yeah, I’m tired, too. But I try to get to bed by 10, and up at 630. Between 630 and 10, plenty of opportunities, if you look hard enough.
[/QUOTE]

But you want to. And I’m glad for you. And your husband. But I don’t want to be quite so active…most of the month. Certain parts of the month, yes. Other parts, don’t even mention sex to me, because I’m Not Interested, with a capital Not.

Having sex every day is not a moral virtue. I’m not even sure I comprehend the concept of it being a ‘good habit’. If you enjoy it every day, hurray! But what if you didn’t? What if, rather than feeling you were ‘denying’ something by not participating daily, you felt harrassed by being expected to participate daily?

Please, before anybody misunderstands, I am playing devil’s advocate in the above, not describing my own home life. My husband and I are happy in our relationship, as **dafisheroo ** seems happy with hers. They’re not the same relationship, as my husband is not the same as her husband, and as I am clearly not the same as her.

145

[QUOTE=Arac]
My ‘rapist’ could belittle me to high-heaven, call me every nasty name under the sun, and I can’t imagine how I’d feel as… broken… as the word ‘rape’ implies.

And yet insert penetration… any kind of penetration… into the situation, and suddenly, yeah, I’d feel I’d been violated. Psychologically, that’s really bizarre.
[/QUOTE]

It’s an aspect of sex that I think sometimes gets forgotten, or dismissed as just too obvious.

Intercourse is invasive. It involves penetration, sometimes quite uncomfortable, and with no guarantee of pleasure, either. And the woman has to be on the receiving end.

So basically, biologically speaking, the male is doing his level best to find females he can penetrate (and biologically, he’d also be trying to inseminate, but being humans and all, we can dodge that bit).

I like sex, and I’ve liked it more every year since I figured it out. But whenever I think “What if I had to start dating again”, I recoil from the generic idea of dealing with a man who mostly just wanted to stick bits of his body into me. Intellectually, I know that hormones and hopefully mutual attraction would make it seem appealing at the time (and obviously it would involve a specific individual, whom I would presumably know and like and trust) but my emotional reaction to it in the generic is just…ick.

That’s why I don’t understand one night stands. And why I find repellant the idea of a man who thinks that’s a perfectly okay thing to do. It’s too much invasion of one’s, er, personal space to just vanish afterward.

146

Ok, complete hijack here.

The reason why I said sex is a “good habit” is because of not only gratification, but also closeness, stress relieving, and fun. I think I am more similar to many men in the fact that I look at sex as an acceptance, a confirmation of my appeal, my desirability as a person. A sign of love. Not the only one, but a major, easy one. Women in general (broad brush) look for signs of love in different ways than sex. When I used the term “good habit” I was referring to the idea that sometimes, even if you want to have sex, you get out of the habit of making it a priority. Suddenly it’s a chore, another task to do. The fun, the love, the frisson is not there. I don’t want to have a marriage like that. And it’s completely unfair to the husband. “Oh, by the way honey, now that we’re married, I don’t like sex anymore, suck it up. I still expect you to do chores, earn a living and cater to my every need, but you can just forget about putting that, there–anytime soon, if ever again.” Does it have to be at his whim? Um, no. Life is a compromise, and marriage even more so. Has there been times when I said “Don’t even think about it!” Of course. And on further reflection, it probably ends up being about 5 times a week, not everyday, but the numbers don’t matter, it’s the attitude. I don’t ever want it to feel like harassment that my husband desires me. I want it to feel like he overwhelming desires me still. Even after all this time.

If I had a sex drive that changed dramatically for whatever reason, I would go to a doctor. It is part of our general health.

My original point was this. There are many women who instead of pretending to like someone just for sex, pretend to like sex just for someone. Which is more unethical?

147

[QUOTE=Roboto]
I mean the former, “faking interest so I’ll get some poontang,” which is not sleazy, it’s social convention. Perhaps the woman really wants to have sex, too . . . if the man is blatant about it, he looks like a pig and the sex won’t happen because the woman is either turned off or doesn’t want to feel/look like a slut.
[/QUOTE]

So you’re ethically and morally okay with deception to get what you want? That’s the definition of sleazy, partner. Let me demonstrate the difference:

A social convention would be making meaningless small talk at a company Christmas party or with people you’ve just met at a dinner party. You say polite things and listen attentively to the person to whom you’re speaking regardless of whether or not you personally care about them. This is expected and understood by all parties. Nobody’s taking it particularly seriously (at least not if they have any understanding of social interaction).

Pretending to care about and be interested in a woman in order to get in her pants is deceptive and dishonest. If you’re dating someone - as opposed to the booty calls you appear to be having with your neighbor - then expectation is that if you don’t care about her and aren’t interested in her, you stop dating her. If all you want is a warm, damp place to insert your boybits, then faking up a relationship just to meet that goal is hideously sleazy - stereotypically so even. Essentially, you’re indulging in fraud and emotional manipulation. You know that the women you know are interested in an emotional connection as a prerequisite to sex - so rather than find a woman who does not have that prerequisite, you fake an emotional connection. If you can’t see that as unethical, then I’m mortally glad I don’t know you anywhere other than here.

I have news for you - if you’re pretending to like a woman just to get some poontang, you are pig, and an asshole. (Using the editorial you in this instance.)

I have a further news flash for you. This:

[QUOTE=Roboto]
So I’d say that the man pretends so that he can have sex, and the woman very well may want the man to pretend so that she can have sex, too.
[/QUOTE]

is crap. Nobody, male or female, wants someone to pretend to care about them in order to use them. If I want sex without strings attached, I’m perfectly capable of going out and finding me some (speaking in the abstract - my huband frowns on this behavior :D). So are you. If nothing else, hire a professional.

The biggest, most blatant womanizer I’ve ever met in my life didn’t pull that “pretend to care about them to get them into bed” crapola. The reason he was the biggest womanizer I’ve ever met was because he was interested in women - all women, everywhere. That was what caused his womanizing. He didn’t pretend squat. He and I were friends - and did the deed a time or two as friends - but we weren’t friends because he was warm for my form.

I’m not even going to comment on your expressed desire to be raped. I’ve known enough male rape survivors to know that it’s possible for a man to be raped by a woman (or women) and that it’s fully as traumatic for the male victim as it is for any female victim.

148

[QUOTE=you with the face]
Because I believe two adults who are mutually interested in screwing one another should not feel it is necessary to dance around the subject in order to come together and make it happen. Especially if the terms of the relationship are clearly sexual, with none of the trappings of a deep commited relationship. I could see going through the “wanna watch a movie” ploy early on in the dealie, when you’re still feeling out the other person. I could also see someone young and unexperienced sticking to this formula, out of self-consciousness and lack of daring.
[/QUOTE]

I guess it’s not really “early in the dealie” any more . . . we’ve had sex about a dozen times spaced out over 3 months. We’re both extremely busy with our careers, so the phone calls would usually occur late at night on the weekends . . . obvious booty call in that instance. But we do like hanging out together and get lunch or dinner sometimes. And I do think it’s necessary to dance around the subject when you do not have a clearly defined relationship . . . keep in mind, she’s just as capable of bringing up that topic as I am, and she hasn’t.

I have no problem having the conversation which will define the relationship, but I’m not going to bring it up, because as far as I can tell, I’m her booty call, a role which I like and don’t feel the need to define. And, I think it would be inappropriate to blatantly call her up for sex. What if she really wants to watch a movie? Sex will probably happen, but there’s no point in ruining the evening by being the dick who asked for sex.

I think it’s easy for everyone who is in committed relationships to say how silly and juvenile it is to “watch a movie” to have sex, but think back to when you started dating your significant other, and the first few times you had sex. Did he ask you for it? Or did it “just happen” during some (pre-planned by the man or woman) appropriate setting?

[QUOTE=you with the face]
But as someone who is no stranger to this kind of interaction, I find that the song and dance you’re talking about get old very fast. A man who is not so afraid of rejection that he chooses to be frank instead of deceptive is hot.
[/QUOTE]

Both men and women are capable of speaking . . . the woman can bring it up just as easily.

[QUOTE=you with the face ]
But Yes, there is a certain finesse to it. You have to know how to present yourself and you can’t be dense when it comes to non-verbal communication. But I think that once you’ve mastered this technique, you’ll be rewarded with relationships that don’t later end up blowing up in your face because of misunderstandings and miscommunication.
[/QUOTE]

If this one ends, I don’t think it will blow up in my face . . . I think it will be “I can’t do this anymore” and “okay,” but I could be wrong.

[QUOTE=you with the face ]
But But you guys have been seeing each other for how long? And all you do is have sex? What purpose does “time to watch a movie” serve if it’s obvious that yall don’t watch any movies?
[/QUOTE]

We do watch some movies, and we also watch the movie before and after the sex. So the movie has it’s normal purpose as well as a good backdrop for sex purpose.

[QUOTE=you with the face ]
But You could get sex from women and not date them, though. You’re not really dating the chick that you’re seeing now.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

[QUOTE=you with the face ]
But You are “pretend” dating. I think you’re telling yourself it has to be a certain way in order to rationalize your current approach, but I really think it’s largely self-imposed based on what you’ve written.
[/QUOTE]

You’re entitled to your opinion, but I think you’re wrong. I don’t think there’s anything pretend about the relationship . . . we have our movie “pretending” but the relationship is real . . . it’s just not the same as what you consider to be a “proper” relationship. It appears you have decided that I’m being dishonest wit this woman due to my “movie” situation through your tone . . . “rationalizing” implies that I know I’m being bad but want to make myself feel better about it. Not the case. It is my contention that this woman likes our current situation, or she would say something or stop calling. She’s just as capable of bringing it up as I am. She’s extremely busy, and she will call me at 3am for a booty call, and she will suggest that we get together to “watch a movie.” I like how it is, apparently she likes it how it is, and the last thing I am going to do is botch a perfectly functioning sexual relationship by trying to define it through conversation. It needs not be defined, it is what it is.

Also, it’s not like sex is ONLY predicated on watching movies with this woman. There have been several occasions that we’ve just listened to music and started making out/having sex. But we didn’t talk about it beforehand in those circumstances, either.

149

[QUOTE=Dangerosa]
No you don’t.

As much fun as sex is, rape is not sex.

Food is fun, being forcefeed against your will food you don’t like isn’t.

Rape is about power. Its often violent. At the very least its humiliating. Its a horrible experience that has little in common with consentual sex except the parts of the anatomy involved.

There are a lot of women who have been raped on this board. You may want to choose your words more carefully and take a more sympathetic tact in this conversation, or you won’t win a lot of popularity contests around here.
[/QUOTE]

I think being force-fed nachos would be fun, I’d eat so many.

150

[QUOTE=Roboto]
I think being force-fed nachos would be fun, I’d eat so many.
[/QUOTE]

I think you’re being deliberately obtuse, avoiding the question.

Imagine now that it’s not a game. Nobody is waiting for you to open your mouth, but instead pry your mouth open by crushing your lips against your teeth, or holding your nose closed until you can’t breathe and MUST Open your mouth. Maybe they hold a knife to your throat - a real one, the kind that draws blood. Maybe they draw some blood just so you know they’re serious. Then they start shoving nachos in, without regard to whether the corners jab you, whether you gag, whether you can breathe. When your mouth is so full you’re nearly guaranteed a gag, they physically jam your jaw shut with their hands, over and over. You didn’t want to chew, wanted to spit some out? Too bad, you’re not the one in control here. Oh yeah. And there’s jalapenos. Lots of them. More than you like. Nobody asked you if you wanted them. And no sour cream to ease the burn. And it’s all your fault, boyo, because you wore a shirt with a picture of Speedy Gonzalez, so obviously you wanted it. When the plate is empty - after you’ve been forced to swallow half-chewed, sharp bits of tortilla chip, and possibly even choking sometimes on mouthsful too large or too awkward - when your throat hurts like hell and you feel nauseated…well, it’s over. They leave. And you’re still tied up.

I spent 4 1/2 years teaching one of my children how to eat. We had therapy twice a week for years. Today? She loves to eat. But not because anybody forced her. Rather, she learned to trust - and the first thing she had to learn to trust, was that she wasn’t going to gag, choke, and throw up, every time something went into her mouth. Which DID happen to her, for most of the first 4 years of her life.

You think it would be funny to be force-fed? Think again. It’s the fantasy you like, I think, the illusion of powerlessness. Not the real thing.

151

[QUOTE=Lemur866]
So I’m fully reconciled to the fact that 99.9% of the women in the world would thrown up in their mouths a bit at the thought of having sex with me. And the other 0.1% are thinking, “meh”.
[/QUOTE]

If you can type in the middle of Puget Sound, then you either have a nice boat with Wi-Fi or you can walk on water, and women find both of these qualities (boat-owning-ness and Son-of-God-ness) quite attractive.

152

[QUOTE=Roboto]
And I do think it’s necessary to dance around the subject when you do not have a clearly defined relationship . . . keep in mind, she’s just as capable of bringing up that topic as I am, and she hasn’t.
[/quote]

See, I really disagree with this. I think it’s exactly when your relationship isn’t clearly defined that you need to cut out as much BS as possible. You may be thinking your relationship means one thing, while she thinks it is something else altogether. If you’re just playing things by ear, that’s cool, but by this time you should know whether you think this girl is relationship material or not.

By saying exactly what you mean, you cut down on the possibility that you’re sending the kind of mixed messages that Fatal Attraction was based on.

Why? Do you think it would offend her? Or do you think being a “nice guy” means ignoring the elephant in the room? I really don’t get it.

If she really wants to watch a movie, then she’d be like “let’s watch a movie” and really like actually mean it. This is not really that hard to understand. If you want sex, you’d be like “why dontcha come over for some good times” and if she didn’t feel like it, then she could say “naw, don’t feel like it tonight; how 'bout a movie instead?” If hanging out with her sans sex is great for you, then you could say yes. If not, then you could say “naw, I don’t feel like watching a movie; I just really wanna do you.” See how this works? You’re defining the relationship based on the things you do and say. Both things are matching up.

Ahem. I’m not in a committed relationship right now. I have a guy friend much like your pseudo-girlfriend. When I say that it’s lame and juvenile to use ploys, it’s only because I can’t imagine going through those motions with a guy who knows what the real deal is. It’s not fooling anyone, so why play? I’m 29 already.

Yup she can. But you’re the one who is saying things must be this way because of of what women supposedly want. I say not so. You assume that they do, but I suspect that’s only because you’re afraid of stepping outside of your own comfort zone. Women aren’t responsible for the games that you play. In the end, only you are.

I don’t think you’re being dishonest (as I said before); but I do think you’re only setting yourself up for a headache later on by letting things be hazy when they don’t have to be. What I think you’re rationalizing is your habit of pretending stuff because you think that’s what all women want, instead of just saying this is how you prefer to take things. You have a problem being upfront about sex, not women. You are afraid of coming across as a pig. You think it’s inappropriate to call your friend up for sex. You are pretending so that you come across a certain way that you think will make women more apt to want to be with you.

You don’t have to pretend, is all I’m saying. Plenty of men don’t. And no, I’m not deceiving myself when I say this.

153

[QUOTE=Chotii]
I think you’re being deliberately obtuse, avoiding the question.

Imagine now that it’s not a game. Nobody is waiting for you to open your mouth, but instead pry your mouth open by crushing your lips against your teeth, or holding your nose closed until you can’t breathe and MUST Open your mouth. Maybe they hold a knife to your throat - a real one, the kind that draws blood. Maybe they draw some blood just so you know they’re serious. Then they start shoving nachos in, without regard to whether the corners jab you, whether you gag, whether you can breathe. When your mouth is so full you’re nearly guaranteed a gag, they physically jam your jaw shut with their hands, over and over. You didn’t want to chew, wanted to spit some out? Too bad, you’re not the one in control here. Oh yeah. And there’s jalapenos. Lots of them. More than you like. Nobody asked you if you wanted them. And no sour cream to ease the burn. And it’s all your fault, boyo, because you wore a shirt with a picture of Speedy Gonzalez, so obviously you wanted it. When the plate is empty - after you’ve been forced to swallow half-chewed, sharp bits of tortilla chip, and possibly even choking sometimes on mouthsful too large or too awkward - when your throat hurts like hell and you feel nauseated…well, it’s over. They leave. And you’re still tied up.

I spent 4 1/2 years teaching one of my children how to eat. We had therapy twice a week for years. Today? She loves to eat. But not because anybody forced her. Rather, she learned to trust - and the first thing she had to learn to trust, was that she wasn’t going to gag, choke, and throw up, every time something went into her mouth. Which DID happen to her, for most of the first 4 years of her life.

You think it would be funny to be force-fed? Think again. It’s the fantasy you like, I think, the illusion of powerlessness. Not the real thing.
[/QUOTE]
My response was deliberate, but not deliberately obtuse. I think you are deliberately refusing to acknowledge valid attempts at humor. You might not care for my brand, but I do, and others may.

I never said that I thought it would be funny to be force-fed, and it’s not a fantasy, either. I said it would be fun to be force-fed nachos. You delivered a very specific example of an unpleasant force-feeding scenario. I can just as easily come up with another equally fictional and far less violent force-feeding scenario. Nachos are my favorite food, and I’m a contestant at a competitive-eating contest, only the catch with this one is your hands are tied and you have a friend feeding you. It’s a competition, so he’s shoving them in your mouth. It kind of sucks, but luckily they are delicious nachos and you end up winning the blue ribbon. Wow, what a fun nacho-eating contest, I’m so pleased we won. Free nachos for life.

The same applies to rape. If Meg Ryan tried to rape me, I would not mind one bit. Even if it was real life rape . . . of course it’s a rape fantasy by virtue of the person doing it, but if Meg Ryan ACTUALLY tried to rape me (in terms of vaginal intercourse), that’s fine with me. She’s not strong enough to really pose a physical threat, so I’d “let her win” and enjoy ever second of it.

154

[QUOTE=you with the face]
See, I really disagree with this. I think it’s exactly when your relationship isn’t clearly defined that you need to cut out as much BS as possible. You may be thinking your relationship means one thing, while she thinks it is something else altogether. If you’re just playing things by ear, that’s cool, but by this time you should know whether you think this girl is relationship material or not.
[/QUOTE]

It’s your opinion that it’s BS, it’s mine that it’s par for the course at this stage in the game. I think it’s obvious what it is, and that it is to her as well.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
By saying exactly what you mean, you cut down on the possibility that you’re sending the kind of mixed messages that Fatal Attraction was based on.
[/QUOTE]

Not concerned with Fatal Attraction . . . a fictional example of an unlikely outcome. If she thinks the messages are mixed, then she should ask.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
Why? Do you think it would offend her? Or do you think being a “nice guy” means ignoring the elephant in the room? I really don’t get it.
[/QUOTE]

I think being a “nice guy” means that that I’m a nice guy, and to ask her for sex is lame and unsmooth, and would make her feel like I felt she’s only good for sex, when we do more than just have sex. I don’t think that I’ll offend her, but we’re just not there at this point, and that’s fine with me.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
If she really wants to watch a movie, then she’d be like “let’s watch a movie” and really like actually mean it. This is not really that hard to understand.
[/QUOTE]

You’re wrong . . . I’ve already said that SHE suggests we watch a movie, and then we have sex. You’re right . . . it’s not that hard to understand.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
If you want sex, you’d be like “why dontcha come over for some good times”
[/QUOTE]

Probably the lamest thing I could do is what you just suggested, and would guarantee no “good times” that night.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
and if she didn’t feel like it, then she could say “naw, don’t feel like it tonight; how 'bout a movie instead?” If hanging out with her sans sex is great for you, then you could say yes. If not, then you could say “naw, I don’t feel like watching a movie; I just really wanna do you.” See how this works? You’re defining the relationship based on the things you do and say. Both things are matching up.
[/QUOTE]

It’s your contention that there must be something spoken to match what is done. It is mine that it’s perfectly okay that what is done need not be defined.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
Ahem. I’m not in a committed relationship right now. I have a guy friend much like your pseudo-girlfriend. When I say that it’s lame and juvenile to use ploys, it’s only because I can’t imagine going through those motions with a guy who knows what the real deal is. It’s not fooling anyone, so why play? I’m 29 already.
[/QUOTE]

“Ploys” is not the correct word, because nobody is deceiving anybody, what will happen is understood. Secondly, you think it’s lame and juvenile to not blatantly discuss your sexual intentions, but that’s your preference. I think that it’s her preference that it remain unspoken, and that it would be lame to ignore her preference.

For example . . . you lean in for a kiss. Unspoken. You ask for a kiss . . . lame.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
But you’re the one who is saying things must be this way because of what women supposedly want. I say not so. You assume that they do, but I suspect that’s only because you’re afraid of stepping outside of your own comfort zone. Women aren’t responsible for the games that you play. In the end, only you are.
[/QUOTE]

I disagree . . . I am not afraid to step outside my comfort zone, but since I think she wants it to remain unspoken, that’s how it will remain. Men aren’t responsible for the games that women play. Clearly I am not alone in thinking that men have to pretend to not have sex in order to get laid, and even you conceded to that to a certain extent with this comment:

[QUOTE=you with the face]
I could see going through the “wanna watch a movie” ploy early on in the dealie, when you’re still feeling out the other person.
[/QUOTE]

You go on to say:

[QUOTE=you with the face]
I could also see someone young and unexperienced sticking to this formula, out of self-consciousness and lack of daring.
[/QUOTE]

You’re 29 . . . I’m 28. You have one more year of experience than me, so clearly you are my elder. Despite your expertise, I consider my relationship to be an extended “early on in the dealie.” It will remain unspoken unless she speaks.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
I don’t think you’re being dishonest (as I said before); but I do think you’re only setting yourself up for a headache later on by letting things be hazy when they don’t have to be. What I think you’re rationalizing is your habit of pretending stuff because you think that’s what all women want, instead of just saying this is how you prefer to take things. You have a problem being upfront about sex, not women. You are afraid of coming across as a pig. You think it’s inappropriate to call your friend up for sex. You are pretending so that you come across a certain way that you think will make women more apt to want to be with you.
[/QUOTE]

Not the case . . . I’m won’t bring it up because it’s “unsmooth” to do so. You don’t think I’d come across as a pig, but there are several women that would disagree with you. Also, the men in this post certainly agree that the reality of sexual relationships in modern dating is that you have to pretend you don’t want it to a certain extent to get it.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
You don’t have to pretend, is all I’m saying. Plenty of men don’t. And no, I’m not deceiving myself when I say this.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t have to do anything, but I choose to pretend. You have your experiences, and I have mine. Mine are just as valid as yours. I’ve learned the game through trial and error. For you to claim that there is no game would be dishonest. You may fancy yourself as the strong independent, sexually open exception to the rule, but the game exists for a reason. If we scanned the posts in this thread, sans yours and mine, I would say that the majority of people agree with my sentiment. The game exists, and pretending is in order.

155

[QUOTE=Roboto]
I think being a “nice guy” means that that I’m a nice guy, and to ask her for sex is lame and unsmooth, and would make her feel like I felt she’s only good for sex, when we do more than just have sex.
[/quote]

So you’re not pretending when you say you wanna watch a movie when you really rather be doing something else? Your thesis is that men must do all this pretending to get what they really want, no? But it looks like you’re being an advocate for not pretending now.

And again I notice that you’re the one who is insisting that asking for sex is lame and unsmooth, and then you follow that statement by what you think it would make her feel like. Where’s the evidence of that? If you are going to declare matter-of-factly that “this is the way the game works” when your determination of that is based on your assumptions of what the other side wants to hear, be prepared to hear what the other side tells you about these assumptions.

Dude, I don’t care what she says. For all any of us know, she’s just following your lead. Big deal. What you asked is “what if she really wants to watch a movie?” and I said if that’s the case then she would make sure that would happen. Since that’s not what happens, all that means is that both of yall are playing little cutesy games with each other. Which apparently is fine to you. But don’t extrapolate your experience to what goes in the majority of relationships like yours. You seem really convinced that everyone engages in that type of pretense and I think you are wrong.

So how come other men are able to pull this off?

As long as you recognize that this is her preference and not all women’s preference.

Wanna know what’s even lamer? Leaning over under the guise of brushing something off of her face just to get your lips close enough to hers so that maybe her head will move in just a way that will make it easy for you to work a kiss in “naturally”, like it was some happy accident.

What you’ve been talking about is analogous to that. Contrast that with someone who recognizes when the time is right and makes the move without hiding anything, with no pretenses.

“Since I think she wants it to remain unspoken…” Why do you think that? Because she’s following your lead with the “wanna watch a movie” dance? Men aren’t responsible for the games that women play, true. But you are responsible for your own.

You don’t have to pretend and nothing I’ve said suggests that you do at all. I can understand why someone would feel compelled to hold back a little when they are first getting to know someone, yes. But that’s different than saying that a man has to adopt pretenses in order to score. Seems like just a thing a guy who is insecure would say in order to justify his particular approach to the opposite sex.

And just because a whole bunch of guys have echoed your sentiments doesn’t mean a whole bunch. All that potentially means is that there is whole bunch of guys out there doing it wrong. The men who don’t pretend are probably too busy getting laid to think about posting to this thread.

I wasn’t lording my age over you; I was making a point about why I don’t have time for games and view them as lame. They don’t fool anyone, so there’s no point to them. Tricks are for kids. You disagree and I’ve accepted that already.

And you may fancy yourself as the arbiter of how the female mind works. Excuse me if I’m not convinced of your expertise, me being a woman and all.

Dude, after going after Lilairen for making fallacious arguments, you’d think you’d be averse to appealing to the majority. But you did it like three times back to back in just one post. Hats off.

156

[QUOTE=you with the face]
But you did it like three times back to back in just one post. Hats off.
[/QUOTE]

I take that back. After rescanning your last post, I see that you only made that fallacy once.

157

[QUOTE=you with the face]

[QUOTE=Roboto]
I think being a “nice guy” means that that I’m a nice guy, and to ask her for sex is lame and unsmooth, and would make her feel like I felt she’s only good for sex, when we do more than just have sex.
[/QUOTE]

So you’re not pretending when you say you wanna watch a movie when you really rather be doing something else? Your thesis is that men must do all this pretending to get what they really want, no? But it looks like you’re being an advocate for not pretending now.
[/quote]

It’s getting confusing so I’ll both clarify and then provide support. I am not an advocate for pretending, I’m an advocate for sex. I campaign on a pro-sex platform. I think that pretending is, especially in the beginning of a relationship, required to have sex. There are plenty of exceptions, but this is the rule. As far as this movie situation, I think I summed up my position best with this earlier post:

[QUOTE=Roboto]
Also, for men, if we had a choice of what we would be doing, usually the default setting is sex. So it’s not necessarily a matter of disguising your true intentions, because we’ve all agreed that men want sex, so that’s understood. It could be more like “let’s watch a movie . . . if sex happens instead, that would be my preference, but if that doesn’t happen, we’ll watch the entire movie and that’s fine and will be fun.” I don’t consider that to be unethical, it’s just the reality of dating.
[/QUOTE]
Moving on . . .

[QUOTE=you with the face]
And again I notice that you’re the one who is insisting that asking for sex is lame and unsmooth, and then you follow that statement by what you think it would make her feel like. Where’s the evidence of that?
[/QUOTE]

Right here:

[QUOTE=Roboto]
Actaully, I have tried it with her, and it didn’t go over well. I was drunk at the time, and I’m sure my drunkeness was unnattractive, because we didn’t have sex that time. She wasn’t mad or anything . . . she was drunk, too, because we were drinking together. The next time we saw each other, she suggested to me very blatantly that we should have sex, which was fine and we had sex. However, I think the reason she was blatant about it was in response to my prior blatant request . . . her thinking that was what I wanted her to do. Beyond that, everything seems to be more smooth and less awkward when we just don’t talk about it, so that’s what I’ll continue to do.
[/QUOTE]
Moving on . . .

[QUOTE=you with the face]
If you are going to declare matter-of-factly that “this is the way the game works” when your determination of that is based on your assumptions of what the other side wants to hear, be prepared to hear what the other side tells you about these assumptions.
[/QUOTE]

I am prepared, I am listening, and I think you are the exception to the rule, and here is one example:

[QUOTE=malkavia]
Of course I can’t speak for all women, but I find making plans expressly to have sex to be incredibly awkward and inhibiting. It puts alot of pressure on me to show up in the right mindset and follow through even if the mood doesn’t strike me. It also makes me feel like my company is unnecessary unless I intend to put out.

If I come over under the pretense of “watching a movie” or “listening to a cd”, I don’t have to worry about whether or not I can perform. If we’re watching a movie and we end up having sex, that’s awesome. If we’re watching a movie and I’m just not feeling it that night, I need that to be okay too.
[/QUOTE]
Moving on . . .

[QUOTE=you with the face]
Dude, I don’t care what she says. For all any of us know, she’s just following your lead. Big deal. What you asked is “what if she really wants to watch a movie?” and I said if that’s the case then she would make sure that would happen. Since that’s not what happens, all that means is that both of yall are playing little cutesy games with each other. Which apparently is fine to you. But don’t extrapolate your experience to what goes in the majority of relationships like yours. You seem really convinced that everyone engages in that type of pretense and I think you are wrong.
[/QUOTE]

You are doing the exact same thing that you are accusing me of . . . extrapolating your experience to what goes on in the majority of relationships like yours, and I think you are wrong. Please see above post by malkavia.

I’ve already acknowledged that there are exceptions to every rule. GENERALLY SPEAKING, men must pretend . . . which you have conceded before and did again in your last post . . . “feel compelled to hold back a little when they are first getting to know someone.” I find it interesting that when you refer to me, you use words like “ploy” and “cutesy games” and “false pretenses,” but for you, you use “holding back a little.” Hmmmmmm . . .

[QUOTE=you with the face]
Wanna know what’s even lamer? Leaning over under the guise of brushing something off of her face just to get your lips close enough to hers so that maybe her head will move in just a way that will make it easy for you to work a kiss in “naturally”, like it was some happy accident. What you’ve been talking about is analogous to that. Contrast that with someone who recognizes when the time is right and makes the move without hiding anything, with no pretenses.
[/QUOTE]

I agree that is lame, but it’s also a bad analogy. Contrast it with someone who recognizes when the time is right and makes a move . . . while watching a movie. I’m thinking we should take a poll in this forum and ask how many people have had sex with their partners while watching a movie.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
“Since I think she wants it to remain unspoken…” Why do you think that? Because she’s following your lead with the “wanna watch a movie” dance?
[/QUOTE]

You continue to make a fundamentally flawed assumption . . . that she’s following my lead. I’m following hers.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
Men aren’t responsible for the games that women play, true. But you are responsible for your own.
[/QUOTE]

No problem there. I take responsibility for playing the movie game, and I’ll take the consequences of having all the sex as the result. That’s the whole point in the first place.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
I can understand why someone would feel compelled to hold back a little when they are first getting to know someone, yes. But that’s different than saying that a man has to adopt pretenses in order to score.
[/QUOTE]

Not really. You concede that what you call “false pretenses” and “ploys” are appropriate when first getting to know someone. Generally speaking, this is true . . . the fact that there are exceptions does not change the rule.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
Seems like just a thing a guy who is insecure would say in order to justify his particular approach to the opposite sex.
[/QUOTE]

Seems like a thing a woman would say who has already conceded to my premise, yet insists on blaming men for being insecure for playing their game.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
And just because a whole bunch of guys have echoed your sentiments doesn’t mean a whole bunch.
[/QUOTE]

Not just guys . . . please refer to the above post by ** malkavia**.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
I wasn’t lording my age over you; I was making a point about why I don’t have time for games and view them as lame. They don’t fool anyone, so there’s no point to them. Tricks are for kids. You disagree and I’ve accepted that already.
[/QUOTE]

I’ve never implied that the games fool anybody . . . I said the exact opposite. Women also know what is happening . . . I’ve maintained from the start that the game is social convention.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
And you may fancy yourself as the arbiter of how the female mind works. Excuse me if I’m not convinced of your expertise, me being a woman and all.
[/QUOTE]

Excuse me if I’m not convinced of yours . . . me being a man and all. I’ve had sex with a lot more women than you have.

[QUOTE=you with the face]
Dude, after going after Lilairen for making fallacious arguments, you’d think you’d be averse to appealing to the majority. But you did it like three times back to back in just one post. Hats off.
[/QUOTE]

Why would that make me averse to appealing to the majority? It doesn’t change at all what the majority has posted, so I don’t understand where you are coming from. Anyway, Lilairen posted nonsensical arguments and blindly asserted herself as being correct, with absolutely no logic to support it. I’d do the same if your arguments were as fundamentally flawed as hers, but they are not.

158

[QUOTE=Roboto]
Actaully, I have tried it with her, and it didn’t go over well. I was drunk at the time, and I’m sure my drunkeness was unnattractive, because we didn’t have sex that time.
[/quote]

You were drunk. You recognize that as unattactive. That seems like the reason why sex was not had. You even admit that. So there’s no reason to pin the blame on honesty. Especially since you go on to say this:

That rather strongly suggests that she takes cues from you. In other words, she sees you as the leader. If you play games, she plays them right back. If you are blatant, she’s blatant in return. There’s no evidence that she really has a problem with you being direct, since she has no problem being direct herself.

One example proves me to be an rarity. All righty then.

All I’m doing is challenging your assertions that men have to be pretenders in order to get laid. I’ve made no grand assertions about how the world works like you have. I’ve extrapolated nothing from my own experiences to the world of sex-based relationships. I’ve not once proclaimed anything specifically about the way men think and react.

Those are two different things, friend. Saying that men must pretend to like someone’s company for non-sexual reasons in order to get laid is different than saying that I understand why someone would be less than obvious about what’s really on their mind in a first date kind of situation, when they are still trying to gauge their partner’s reactions to things. You’re rather past the point that I was talking about, so I don’t even know why you’ve become fixated on this comment of mine. It doesn’t support your assertion that guys have to put on an act at all.

Perhaps because I wasn’t talking about pretenses and games when I was refering to an early relationship. You may have also noticed that I wasn’t advocating or validating any particular form of behavior either. I was saying that I understand why frankness may be intimidating when you don’t know the other person that well. Not after a dozen-so encounters, though. Being coy at that point seems lame and juvenile to me. Why this has got you on the defensive so much, I haven’t a clue.

And if you think its wrong to refer to your conduct as “games” and “pretenses”, then why have you done so? I’m just using the same language that you have.

It’s not a bad analogy. The guy who can’t kiss a woman without pretending to have another “safer” intention (or put her arm around her without doing that stupid yawn-stretch thing) is still stuck in elementary school in terms of relating with women romantically. The movie thing is the same thing, man. You’re using it like a stage prop or a story device. You haven’t mastered the art of seduction if you don’t know how to work without crutches. This isn’t something to be proud of. Because plenty of men know how to work without crutches. If they’ve managed to do it kind of blows a hole in your theory that men have to pretend in order to score.

I’m only concluding that based on what you’ve written. See above about what happened when you took the blatant approach.

Which is why they are pointless.

And I’ve had sex with more men with you. Everything you say men can’t do, I’ve seen them do. And do it right.

Actually, read back over the thread and you’ll see that there is a range of opinions in this thread. Some guys seem to agree with you. Many don’t think its so cut and dry. Others seem to just plain ole disagree. A lot of women who’ve posted take issue with your comments, too, and have made reference to men who don’t seem to feel the need to pretend anything. A couple can’t seem to decide whether you’re just stating the obvious (men want to have sex with women) or are advocating outright deception.

So even if appealing to the majority was a non-fallacious argument, I don’t think you have must justification in doing that.

159

[QUOTE=Roboto]

The same applies to rape. If Meg Ryan tried to rape me, I would not mind one bit. Even if it was real life rape . . . of course it’s a rape fantasy by virtue of the person doing it, but if Meg Ryan ACTUALLY tried to rape me (in terms of vaginal intercourse), that’s fine with me. She’s not strong enough to really pose a physical threat, so I’d “let her win” and enjoy ever second of it.
[/QUOTE]

I know you’re trying to be funny…

But the unfunny thing about rape is, you don’t get to choose how you’re going to be violated. Vaginal rape may not be rape to you. But maybe Meg doesn’t give a shit about that, or about you, and what you want. If she wants to drug you, tie you up, and penetrate you - THAT’S rape.

Anyway, carry on.

160

[QUOTE=Roboto]
My response was deliberate, but not deliberately obtuse. I think you are deliberately refusing to acknowledge valid attempts at humor. You might not care for my brand, but I do, and others may.

I never said that I thought it would be funny to be force-fed, and it’s not a fantasy, either. I said it would be fun to be force-fed nachos. You delivered a very specific example of an unpleasant force-feeding scenario. I can just as easily come up with another equally fictional and far less violent force-feeding scenario. Nachos are my favorite food, and I’m a contestant at a competitive-eating contest, only the catch with this one is your hands are tied and you have a friend feeding you. It’s a competition, so he’s shoving them in your mouth. It kind of sucks, but luckily they are delicious nachos and you end up winning the blue ribbon. Wow, what a fun nacho-eating contest, I’m so pleased we won. Free nachos for life.

[/quote]

But that’s not really the same thing-you consented to eat the nachos, and have some fun having a friend shove them into your mouth.

Dude, that’s NOT RAPE then! If you “let her win”, if you consent, guess what:

IT IS NOT FUCKING RAPE!!!
:rolleyes: