Of course I can’t speak for all women, but I find making plans expressly to have sex to be incredibly awkward and inhibiting. It puts alot of pressure on me to show up in the right mindset and follow through even if the mood doesn’t strike me. It also makes me feel like my company is unnecessary unless I intend to put out.
If I come over under the pretense of “watching a movie” or “listening to a cd”, I don’t have to worry about whether or not I can perform. If we’re watching a movie and we end up having sex, that’s awesome. If we’re watching a movie and I’m just not feeling it that night, I need that to be okay too.
Actaully, I have tried it with her, and it didn’t go over well. I was drunk at the time, and I’m sure my drunkeness was unnattractive, because we didn’t have sex that time. She wasn’t mad or anything . . . she was drunk, too, because we were drinking together. The next time we saw each other, she suggested to me very blatantly that we should have sex, which was fine and we had sex. However, I think the reason she was blatant about it was in response to my prior blatant request . . . her thinking that was what I wanted her to do. Beyond that, everything seems to be more smooth and less awkward when we just don’t talk about it, so that’s what I’ll continue to do.
Appropos of nothing, I’d like to say as a guy, that the word “rip” should never be that close to the word “rubbers.” :eek:
So…you guys dress up like Homeland Security? Go around pulling (fake) guns on each other and yell, all Jack Bauer-like, “If you don’t have sex with me now, MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WILL DIE!”?
We’re more fans of dressing up like the TSA . . . we wear the bland uniforms, latex gloves, and then we repeat monotonous phrases like “please present your tickets along with photo ids” or “all laptop computers must be opened and turned on.” Inevitably, full strip searches are required, and any contraband found is used it to bang the violator as punishment. It’s a fetish of sorts, just now gaining popularity online. I tell you, when she catches me trying to sneak my foot-long double dong onto the plane, my ass sure is sore the next day!
It’s common sexist bigotry. I don’t consider slander “knowledge”.
I used the plural only in cases where I knew multiple instances.
Given that several of those people later had perfectly happy sexual relationships with the person who pointed out the question of attraction, that strikes me as extremely implausible.
The point is not that attraction did not in theory exist, it is that it was not the most important thing in the interaction, thereby showing the claim that it is always the most important thing to be a lie.
Two that I know personally.
In the most recent idiotic flamefest on the subject of polyamory, Diogenes the Cynic claimed to be one of those people. Take it up with him.
It happened the same way any other rape happens. Force, coercion, and manipulation.
And it has to do with the fact that he was not, as you claim, intrinsically interested in having sex with the person who assaulted him – who, being the sort of person who believes the slander you are attempting to push, claimed to be doing him a favor, since he was presumed to be “primarily interested in sex”, after all.
And since you are incorrect, there is no point in discussing this further. My criteria for judging someone a liar and deceiver is based on whether or not they actually lie.
You have presented no evidence for your position other than that you say so and a few other people present similar sexist nonsense. Oh, and claiming that the men I know who disagree with you are lying because, well, because they just are, even if they are otherwise honest and honorable people.
I see no point in continuing to engage with you, as you will only continue to slander my friends and partners, and you’re not worth the effort of a Pitting.
What are you talking about? You are incoherent. Anyway, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There are lots of girls that I wouldn’t sleep with that have been in several happy sexual relationships.
You’re putting words in my mouth. I never said “attraction is not the most important thing in the interaction.” I said that men are primarily interested in sex. You have a bad habit of trying to disprove (poorly) arguments that were never made, also known as the straw man logical fallacy.
Straw man, straw man, straw man!! I never claimed that all males are intrinsically interested in all women . . . just that their primary motivation is sex
“Appeal to authority” logical fallacy. You can’t just say “I’m right, you’re wrong.”
You are projecting the weakness of your own arguments . . . you have offered nothing more than what you are accusing me of offering. Unlike you, I am a male, and other independent males on this message board have by and large agreed with my assertion, and not with yours.
Appeal to ridicule (of which I am also guilty, but don’t mind). I wouldn’t want to argue in The Pit with such a lack of logical arguments, either. Good choice.
You really don’t have to add the qualifier heterosexual in front of that one. Gay guys are led around by the same organ. It just leads us to a different place.
While I agree that it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, it is possible for males to be raped by females, though the cases I recall were groups of women on one guy. No cite handy right now.
I am intrigued by this woman-raping-man scenario. I could see how a woman could overpower a man and sodomize him with something, but in terms of forcing vaginal intercourse, the man has to have an erection. I suppose that with enough stimulation, it’s an automatic reaction to get an erection and you can’t help it.
I wish more women would try to rape me (relatively attractive and disease-free, that is) but it hasn’t yet happened. Any suggestions?
There is no secret that guys wanna have sex, people. That’s not the same thing as pretending to like someone for nonsexual reasons just to get sex from them, knowing that they wouldn’t sleep with you if they knew the truth.
Even after all these pages, I’m still trying to figure out where the OP draws the line. If you take someone out and you realize that they bore you to death and there’s no mental connection between the two of you whatsoever, do you let them believe you really like them just so that you can coax them into your bed? If a woman tells you that she doesn’t want to sleep with someone who doesn’t care about her, do you convince her that you care–even if you don’t–just so you can get her naked? When do you think it’s going too far when it comes to the “pretending”? I think a few of us are hazy on that.
If it’s just a matter of disguising your true but obvious intentions with a safe hook (e.g. let’s watch a movie), that’s pretty harmless, I think. Lame and juvenile but harmless. If it’s a matter of doing whatever it takes to get sex, even it means misrepresenting yourself, that’s unethical. Can we all agree with that?
Why do you think it’s lame and juvenile? When you are not in a committed relationship, or are in the beginning of one, you don’t have the luxury simply saying “I’m horny, let’s have sex” because you are not at that level with that person. In my example of the woman I’m currently sleeping with, I think that she prefers that it’s “time to watch a movie,” . . . she even says it herself.
Also, for men, if we had a choice of what we would be doing, usually the default setting is sex. So it’s not necessarily a matter of disguising your true intentions, because we’ve all agreed that men want sex, so that’s understood. It could be more like “let’s watch a movie . . . if sex happens instead, that would be my preference, but if that doesn’t happen, we’ll watch the entire movie and that’s fine and will be fun.” I don’t consider that to be unethical, it’s just the reality of dating.
“Doing whatever it takes to get sex,” interpreted as forcing yourself on women, blatantly lying, as in misrepresenting everything about yourself or saying that you love someone when you don’t, etc. is unethical . . . there’s no question about that. But what it takes to get sex is to date women, and that’s where the pretending comes in.
Definitely, the one does not rule out the other. If in addition to the sex we both have mutual interests other than sex, then we can continue interacting in those other subjects on a normal any-two-persons level, even after one of us says “no, thanks”, and we each seek the sex elsewhere. And definitely I must go into any M/F interaction bearing respect for her ability to gage my intentions.
Oh, and men most definitely CAN say “no thanks” and decide we can take it or leave it on the sex part. Really. BION
Food is fun, being forcefeed against your will food you don’t like isn’t.
Rape is about power. Its often violent. At the very least its humiliating. Its a horrible experience that has little in common with consentual sex except the parts of the anatomy involved.
There are a lot of women who have been raped on this board. You may want to choose your words more carefully and take a more sympathetic tact in this conversation, or you won’t win a lot of popularity contests around here.
Because I believe two adults who are mutually interested in screwing one another should not feel it is necessary to dance around the subject in order to come together and make it happen. Especially if the terms of the relationship are clearly sexual, with none of the trappings of a deep commited relationship. I could see going through the “wanna watch a movie” ploy early on in the dealie, when you’re still feeling out the other person. I could also see someone young and unexperienced sticking to this formula, out of self-consciousness and lack of daring.
But as someone who is no stranger to this kind of interaction, I find that the song and dance you’re talking about get old very fast. A man who is not so afraid of rejection that he chooses to be frank instead of deceptive is hot. Yes, there is a certain finesse to it. You have to know how to present yourself and you can’t be dense when it comes to non-verbal communication. But I think that once you’ve mastered this technique, you’ll be rewarded with relationships that don’t later end up blowing up in your face because of misunderstandings and miscommunication. And also, you’ll be weeding out the women who can’t handle the truth plainly stated and selecting for those who do.
But you guys have been seeing each other for how long? And all you do is have sex? What purpose does “time to watch a movie” serve if it’s obvious that yall don’t watch any movies?
You could get sex from women and not date them, though. You’re not really dating the chick that you’re seeing now. You are “pretend” dating. I think you’re telling yourself it has to be a certain way in order to rationalize your current approach, but I really think it’s largely self-imposed based on what you’ve written.
I’ll be honest right off the bat; I didn’t bother to read through all three pages of responses. I’ll just give my perspective.
Men are more complicated than they let on, generally speaking. Yes, we want sex, but (and I say this as a 30something male, so YMMV) ultimately we DO want something more fulfilling than JUST sex (not that there’s anything wrong with that), and if a woman is TOO eager to just have sex, we do sometimes feel cheap, used, like a means to an end. Sure, we love the sex, but nobody wants to feel used. Nobody wants to feel like they were just a quick fix for somebody else. Or maybe that’s just me.
So the relevant point is, sometimes women give sex in the hope that they’re hooking something more meaningful, sometimes men pretend that they’re seeking something more meaningful to get sex, but at a certain point, a point I can’t readily pinpoint, all of that is a rote game that means little. We have the residual tactics of using sex or emotion to get emotion or sex (respectively) but eventually we all want to be loved.
Sorry, I’m dealing with…things. Probably didn’t contribute too much to the discussion.
I respect your viewpoint, and I agree with you that true rape is about power and not about sex, but I wonder if the person you were replying to wasn’t referring more to a rape fantasy…
OK, I know I have to qualify that.
I have known, dated even, some women who have rape fantasies; these are not women who have actually been raped or who want to actually be raped; by definition rape is unwanted. What they actually want is to be freed from the responsibility to have to choose sexually. What I mean is, they feel restrained, they feel judged, guilty for being a person with sexual needs, but they want to be open in their sexual expression. They want to be wild, they want to be sexual people, but something, maybe it’s their upbringing, maybe it’s their religious beliefs, something is holding them back, and so the rape fantasy gives them the excuse to let loose; in their fantasy they can give in to their latent desires without guilt because someone is “forcing” it on them. And they give their consent to be “forced” because it allows them to relax and let go of the guilt.
I have to take a moment to reinforce that I am NOT talking about actual rape here. I am talking about people (men as well as women) who are perhaps conflicted about their sexuality and find that they need the release from responsibility that comes with rape fantasies. I dated such a woman for almost a year and her desires were disturbing to me at first. She wanted to be held down, she wanted to be treated roughly; by nature, I don’t do those sorts of things. But if I wanted to make her happy, I had to do those sorts of things.
I’m not sure where I’m going with this; I guess my point is that we judge too quickly, we need to take the time to understand why a person says something, and not just project our own sensibilities onto others. I may be wrong; maybe the person you replied to is just a young horndog who just wants to fuck as much as possible. But maybe not.
It does raise some interesting questions. Discounting sodomy, can a woman rape a man in any meaningful way? I mean sure, a woman could probably have sex with me against my will. Maybe they could even beat the crap out of me and /then/ have sex with me against my will, but really… I just don’t think I’d feel like I’d been ‘raped’. Being beaten could doubtless leave emotional scars, but the actual forced-sex thing seems like it’d just be ‘kinda squicky’, something I’d go ‘bleh’ about and promptly forget. My ‘rapist’ could belittle me to high-heaven, call me every nasty name under the sun, and I can’t imagine how I’d feel as… broken… as the word ‘rape’ implies.
And yet insert penetration… any kind of penetration… into the situation, and suddenly, yeah, I’d feel I’d been violated. Psychologically, that’s really bizarre.
The Marquis de Sade, I once read, proposed the institution of state brothels in which all women would be compelled to serve at some period in their lives.
