Why must men pretend they don't want to sleep with women?

In My Humble Opinion
101

[QUOTE=CanvasShoes]
Good point, and I HATE those types of women, they give we nymphos, errr I mean normal girls, a bad name!

On the other hand, it may be what a previous poster brought up. Only no so much that too many men can’t find the clitoris, but that far too many don’t care to make sex good for the woman, and are the aforementioned “wham bam, thank you ma’am” types even IN a committed relationship.

I was thinking about this some more the other night. The fact that most women are looking for a relationship, and see casual sex as an obstacle to that end, is not the only reason they aren’t more willing to engage in casual sex.

A huge reason is that we women, unlike men, aren’t guaranteed an orgasm simply from 5 minutes of ordinary intercourse. For most of us, it takes some finessing and technique.

Second reason is, that even if we are interested in a casual encounter, too many men have the attitude of “whoo hoo, I scored and you’re the dumb slut I tricked into it”. Rather than a mutually friendly and respectful attitude toward the woman who shares her body with him.

IMHO, those two reasons, (were they the opposite of what they are), would probably outweigh a lot of women’s resistance regarding waiting for the right man, and in men’s favor (in other words, if men changed their attitudes and behaviour they’d get laid a LOT more, and a lot more without having to play all the games and wade through all the strings and phone calls and such).
[/QUOTE]

That goes a long way towards explaining why I, who took a keen interest in women’s sexual pleasure since I was old enough to be at all curious about it, and who never regarded sex as a “conquest” or despite the “dumb slut I tricked into it”, got laid so much during my twenties.

Well, except for the part about not getting laid so much. It’s a nice theory otherwise, but I’m a data point to be filed under “it ain’t necessarily so”.

102

s/despite/despised/

103

[QUOTE=Nava]
Diana, if I buy an autograph book, will you sign it for me?

Heck, if I’m not thinking about the possibility of having sex with him, it’s not “a date”. It’s “going to see a movie”.

But I’d like to have some kisses before we rip out the rubbers.
[/QUOTE]

Only if you’ll sign mine too! Do you know how to french braid? :smiley:

And BINGO to your second sentence. A “date” without sexual tension isn’t worthy of the word.

104

[QUOTE=Malacandra]
That goes a long way towards explaining why I, who took a keen interest in women’s sexual pleasure since I was old enough to be at all curious about it, and who never regarded sex as a “conquest” or despite the “dumb slut I tricked into it”, got laid so much during my twenties.

Well, except for the part about not getting laid so much. It’s a nice theory otherwise, but I’m a data point to be filed under “it ain’t necessarily so”.
[/QUOTE]

The thing is that as long as many men (and it doesn’t even have to be most) behave in that fashion, women will assume each individual man will - just like men assume women will behave in a way because most do (or perhaps they just perceive most do). You don’t wear a sign around your neck that says “I’m a kind, considerate lover interested in casual sex with respect.”
Imagine for a second that you go out with a girl. She jumps you, gets herself off, and just when you are about there, she hops off you, smooths her skirt and calls a cab. Giving you the parting shot of an obviously insincere since she didn’t get your number “I’ll call you.” This is what a one night stand for women often is like. If that was what you were risking, wouldn’t you want to make her work a little bit to make sure that she at least seemed like the kind of person to make sure you had a good time, too. Imagine that two weeks after that disappointing experience, your reward is that your period is three days late and you spend three days say “oh, shit…I hope not.”

105

[QUOTE=Chotii]
Well, some of us are just tired. Multiple kids, a hundred things to get done every day, and no “time off”, no “quitting time”, you can’t check out at the end of the work day, go home, and relax. There’s still the dishwasher to be emptied at midnight, and clothes to fold. Sex? I’d like to be able to want it that often. Maybe someday I will again, when the kids are bigger, or whatever. Maybe, if a man has to choose between sleep and sex, he’ll take sex every time, but most of the time I’d rather have sleep. That’s something I rarely get enough of.
[/QUOTE]

Chotii, I have 5 kids, the oldest is 11. We run a contracting business. I coach volleyball, my husband coaches football. We volunteer. I am going back to college in January. We have no paid help for anything.(Not that I want to, just in case anyone assumed.) In addition to having no quitting time because of the kids, we have no quitting time because of owning our own business. Yet, we still make an effort. We are in the good habit of sex. The chores are always going to be there. Work is always going to be there. The kids are always going to be there. And he is never going to <insert husband’s shortcomings here>, whether or not I have sex with him. I’m not going to wait for all those things to change, in order to have sex. Why would I deny myself? Why would I put sex last?
And yeah, I’m tired, too. But I try to get to bed by 10, and up at 630. Between 630 and 10, plenty of opportunities, if you look hard enough.

106

[QUOTE=Roboto]
But does a monogomous marrige quell the constant desire for sex in the back of your mind? You don’t have to pretend, but I dont see how it would quell the constant desire fro sex. If anything, it seems to me that marriage would increase that desire.
[/QUOTE]

Mine did, not counting the random thoughts that all people are prone to. But the idea of ever continuing the thought or following through with action was and is repugnant to me.

107

[QUOTE=Dangerosa]
The thing is that as long as many men (and it doesn’t even have to be most) behave in that fashion, women will assume each individual man will - just like men assume women will behave in a way because most do (or perhaps they just perceive most do). You don’t wear a sign around your neck that says “I’m a kind, considerate lover interested in casual sex with respect.”
[/quote]

Very true, which is why all I was saying is that it’s complete nonsense to say that any man’s going to get laid more just because he both knows where a clitoris is and cares what it’s for, and doesn’t disrespect his potential fuck-buddies for putatively fucking him.

Barring the late period and there being any sex at all, this doesn’t sound too unfamiliar. :stuck_out_tongue:

dahfisheroo, where were you when I was mate-shopping? I take Chotii’s point about being busy and being tired, but I love your answer; if you want badly enough to make room for sex in your life, then you will. It’s like a line in a completely unrelated story I re-read not too long ago, in which a character spoke about Penelope, the wife of Odysseus, making herself busywork in order to keep the unwanted suitors at bay. Some women, I feel, are like that: if you want to avoid sex badly enough, there is no end of scruples or necessary tasks or tiredness brought on by same or good old-fashioned sick headaches that you can fall back on. If you want the sex itself, it’s amazing how you can deal with these things.

108

I pretend for two reasons:

  1. Because it establishes the balance of power early on in a relationship, in my favor. I don’t chase it in or out of a relationship: it chases me.

  2. Hotties have little or no defense to being rejected or left turned on but unsatisfied. You go from just another guy to something mysterious that she can’t have, and thus become irresistible.

Of course, that’s when I pretend. Other times I’m really just turning it down, and contrary to alot of what men are saying in this thread, whether she’s attractive or not actually does matter to me for purposes of sex. My hand works just fine and there’s much porn in the world; if she doesn’t get me hot I’d rather amuse myself than deal with the complications.

109

I have a theory about this.
I’ve been married for 15+ years and my wife is like this. If I were to go up to her at a random time and say “I’m so horny I just want to f* right now”, it would completely turn her off. But if I were to do the appropriate softening up first, I could be as raunchy as I want and it just turns her on more.

Even when she does want to have sex, she might not be in the mood. I have to take things slowly before going for the goods otherwise she shuts down.

However, she can get me in the mood at just about anytime with a few minutes of targetted caressing.

So I think that female sexuality can be like the different forms of water: ice, water, and steam. By default, it is like ice–hard and unweilding. If you start with the sex moves in that state, it doesn’t work at all. You need to take it slowly until the ice turns to water. Then you can start heating it up until it turns to steam. Once it’s steam, just about anything goes.

Another way to think about it is to like a non-newtonian fluid like a cornstarch-water solution. These solutions turn solid if you hit them hard, but will easily yield if you press into them slowly.
I don’t think women are playing games when they are being coy about sex. I truly believe they need to slowly move into a sexual state.

110

[QUOTE=OneMoreThing]
I’ve been married for 15+ years and my wife is like this. If I were to go up to her at a random time and say “I’m so horny I just want to f* right now”, it would completely turn her off.
…
So I think that female sexuality can be like the different forms of water: ice, water, and steam. By default, it is like ice–hard and unweilding.
[/QUOTE]

I must be a gay man trapped in a straight woman’s body. Because I’m the complete opposite of this. Completely.

111

[QUOTE=you with the face]
I must be a gay man trapped in a straight woman’s body. Because I’m the complete opposite of this. Completely.
[/QUOTE]

…So I suppose a shag would be out of the question? :stuck_out_tongue:

112

(my editing)
Please. Your experiences with your wife do not speak for us all. I don’t mean to pick on you but that statement bothered me and nagged at me until I finally gave in and posted.

Since I am here, I will say:

  • I certainly know men who date only for sex. Even long relationships. I have heard men say horrible things about women and then say “But she’s a great lay!” And I know of at least two men who carried on LTR’s just for the sex.
  • I don’t think all men are like this. How do we always get from a few examples to all of the subset?
  • As for the thought process that a man will get laid more because he’s a better lover, not necessarily. The times in my life I scored a great lover who I was not interested in for a LTR I never told a soul. I would never tell any of my female friends. I don’t want that kind of knowledge bandied around, I want to keep it to myself. All to myself.
  • I also know plenty of women who play equal power games. Withholding sex, etc. And yes it has to do with our society and the way we perceive women who sleep around, and also plenty to do with rejected men who can’t keep their mouths shut as to who they’re banging/have banged. But it’s also just games. I for one decided long ago I wasn’t having any of it. My partner is the same. So you just have to look for the person who also doesn’t play games. Hard to find, but they’re there.
    Also, another proponent of the idea that you have to make room for sex in your life. It’s just as important to a healthy relationship as so many other things, so why wouldn’t you? And if that means you have to do it on a set schedule, and plan it around other things so be it. Spontaneity can still exist but it’s silly to expect it all the time. I knew a couple once that only had sex once a week but they had it once a week without fail, every week. It’s the way it works in a LTR, if you want to keep the passion there.
113

I don’t even know where to start in this thread.

For starters, unless a woman is frighteningly dim, if you’re on a date, she’s aware of the fact you’d quite like to do the nasty with her when you ask her out. This is understood from the context.

If the only reason you’re going through the dating motions - dinner, conversation, shared activities, etc - is because you’d quite like to fuck her, i.e. you have no interest in her other than as a sexual outlet, then you’re precisely the sort of fella who earns your gender suspicion and mistrust from the ladies in the dating world.

When the OP says “pretending you don’t want to sleep with women” do you mean “faking interest so I’ll get some poontang” or do you mean “frantically concealing the fact that I find you sexually attractive”. The former is sleazy and the latter is pointless.

I’d rather break out my own toys than have intercourse with the men in the first group - for starters, if they can’t be assed to muster up any interest in me as a person, why would I think they’d be assed to be a considerate or exciting lover? Also, even though I’m a huge fan of sex in general and not even marginally afflicted with the virgin-whore chaos, letting yourself be manipulated by a person who wants nothing more out of you than a warm damp receptacle for his boyparts isn’t fun. It’s the guys who pretend to be interested in you as a person that irritate the bejeesus out of women.

If your sole interested in me is as a self-motile sex toy, go hire a professional.

Using the editorial me and you of course :slight_smile:

114

[QUOTE=Anaamika]
(my editing)
Please. Your experiences with your wife do not speak for us all. I don’t mean to pick on you but that statement bothered me and nagged at me until I finally gave in and posted.

[/quote]

One of the problems with using analogies is that people can get fixated on saying why the analogy is or isn’t correct. Don’t worry about that. Obviously female sexuality is not exactly like ice. I was only using that to illustrate my point that in general women take longer to get into the mood for sex. Whereas men can go from straight from A to Z, women * in general* need to go through some intermediate steps.

When I’m with my wife, I’m not pretending that I’m interested in her. I’m genuinely interested in her. But I still have to carefully put the moves on her or else it doesn’t work. She’s even told me as much.

Imagine two strangers meet and one says to the other “I find you very attractive. Do you want to go to my hotel?” The chance of success for a woman saying that to a man would be much, much higher than a man saying that to a woman. I don’t think the difference is because the woman is playing power games or anything like that. I think it’s because in general women need to be in a certain state before the sexual advances will be received favorably.

And to be very clear, this difference does not at all mean that women want sex any less. I’m sure they want sex just as much as men, it’s just that accomplishing that goal in a woman takes different steps than in a man.

115

[QUOTE=Lilairen]

[QUOTE=Roboto]
Why is it that you see no reason to buy into this particualar misandristic crap?
[/QUOTE]
Because about 90% of the evidence for it is people whining on message boards about how they can’t get laid, and most of the rest is summer romance movies?
[/QUOTE]
First of all, this is a supposition. I am not whining about how I can’t get laid. I’m currently in a NSA relationship with a woman in my apartment complex. We enjoy each other’s company, have dinner from time to time, and also have sex most times we hang out. However, I can’t just say “hey, we’re going to have sex now” despite the fact that we’ve had sex about a dozen times. Last night she came over to “watch a movie” when really we watched about 15 minutes and then had sex, like always. She is a lovely, fun, smart, and energetic woman, and I’m attracted to her for many reasons, but when we first met I thought 1) would I 2) could I and 3) should I have sex with her, and luckily the answer to all 3 questions was yes. We have great time together, and great sex, but it’s never once been talked about, and I can tell that to talk about anything would ruin it. So here we have an example of a sexual relationship in which the social convention of “pretending” comes in to play. I’m not lying to her, and she’s not lying to me, but I can tell this is how she’s comfortable and so this is how it will be. So here you have evidence that is not from a person who is “whining on message boards about how they can’t get laid.”
[QUOTE=Lilairen]

[QUOTE=Roboto]

Why is it that you see no reason to buy into this particualar misandristic crap?
[/QUOTE]
Seriously. Lack of evidence. Invisible pink unicorns are vastly more plausible and rational than the notion that all heterosexual men are both functionally controlled by their penises and sufficiently good actors and liars to not make this obvious.
[/QUOTE]
Seriously? Isn’t it common knowledge that heterosexual men are functionally controlled by their penises?

I’d like to point out that you tried to add “extra validity” to your examples by describing them in the plural, as if there are several instances per example, when it’s very obvious that many of them are just one instance. In the end, it takes away credibility.

[QUOTE=Lilairen]
I have known men who didn’t bother to consider whether or not someone was sexually attractive to them before that person brought the question up, because they were enjoying that person’s company too much.
[/QUOTE]
Probably because the woman was sexually unattractive. Secondly, one can do the following two things at the same time, 1) enjoy someone’s company, and 2) be sexually attracted to them. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.

[QUOTE=Lilairen]
I have known men who continued with relationships in which sex was not an option for medical reasons because they actually loved their wives, not just their wives’ genitalia.
[/QUOTE]
Do you work at a hospital? How many men are we talking about? Anyway, this example fails to prove anything because the guy couldn’t have sex if he wanted to. Secondly, I’ve never made any comments about whether or not men loved their wives. It is possible for men to 1) love their wife, and 2) be sexually attracted to them. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.

[QUOTE=Lilairen]
I have known men whose capacity for attraction was limited to one satisfying relationship, who simply did not register other people as attractive when partnered.
[/QUOTE]
This is ridiculous . . . there’s no way you could know this. Guess what . . . these guys aren’t going to give you a detailed description of their every thought.

[QUOTE=Lilairen]
I have known men who turned women down who approached them, even though both were available, and still somehow managed to maintain friendships with those selfsame women.
[/QUOTE]
This is where the “worth the effort” test comes in to play, and the woman was obviously not worth the effort.

[QUOTE=Lilairen]
I have known stable mixed-sex groups of people that somehow manage not to degenerate into raving sexual tension.
[/QUOTE]
Irrelevant . . . has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[QUOTE=Lilairen]
I have known men who looked at open relationships and said, “You know, that’s just too much effort.”
[/QUOTE]
Please note that the men already had sex with the women before ending the relationship. So it wasn’t working for them . . . doesn’t change how they evaluate women.

[QUOTE=Lilairen]
I have an ex whose given reason for breaking up with me was that I was too interested in sex and not enough interested in things that fed his sense of relationship.
[/QUOTE]
Please note that he already had sex with you before he broke it off. There are a host of reasons why he could have done that.

[QUOTE=Lilairen]
I have another ex whose sex drive was much lower than mine
[/QUOTE]
Doesn’t provide evidence against my OP. He still has a sex drive, still wants to have sex with women, still evaluates women and whether or not he wants to sleep with.

[QUOTE=Lilairen]
I have another ex who ended the relationship when he realized that he was treating me as a sex object because he thought that that was a disgustingly neanderthal attitude to take.
[/QUOTE]
Please note that he already had sex with you before he broke it off. There are a host of reasons why he could have done that.

[QUOTE=Lilairen]
I know men who complain about the social presumption that they’re primarily interested in sex or ruled by their libidos because they find it as derogatory and disgustingly sexist as I do.
[/QUOTE]
Very good pretenders, scored lots of points with you.

[QUOTE=Lilairen]
I know a man who was never taken seriously when he was raped by a woman because people just figured, hey, men are happy to get laid, why’s he so upset about that silly ‘consent’ thing?
[/QUOTE]
You have a male friend who was raped by a woman? How did that happen? And what does it have to do with anything?

[QUOTE=Lilairen]
Your argument in response to this appears to boil down to: they’re all liars and deceivers, none of them can be trusted to report the truth anyway, and they’re all sufficiently brilliant at this that nobody catches on. (Or, for a different bit of sexist drivel, women are too stupid to figure it out.)
[/QUOTE]
They’re “liars and deceivers” by your criteria, not mine. I’m saying that men are primarily interested in sex, and must adhere to the social conventions of pretending they don’t want to in order to have sex. Women also want to have sex, and they play the game as well (i.e. they know that when they head up to your apartment to “listen to a cd,” they know that there may be sex and they very well may want it just as bad). My whole question from the start was why we need that social convention.

[QUOTE=Lilairen]
That there is no way to have a relationship with someone who is not a scumbag unless it’s with one of these fine honest upstanding fellows who claims that from a male perspective, men are beasts and women are meat. You want me to believe it’s just honesty, just how men are, even though it requires a suspension of disbelief so complete that it demands antigrav sleds and pixie dust.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t really understand this statement, but I agree with the “how men are” statement in that yes, men are primarily interested in sex. I don’t know about antigray sleds and pixie dust.

116

[QUOTE=Aangelica]
When the OP says “pretending you don’t want to sleep with women” do you mean “faking interest so I’ll get some poontang” or do you mean “frantically concealing the fact that I find you sexually attractive”. The former is sleazy and the latter is pointless.
[/QUOTE]

I mean the former, “faking interest so I’ll get some poontang,” which is not sleazy, it’s social convention. Perhaps the woman really wants to have sex, too . . . if the man is blatant about it, he looks like a pig and the sex won’t happen because the woman is either turned off or doesn’t want to feel/look like a slut. So I’d say that the man pretends so that he can have sex, and the woman very well may want the man to pretend so that she can have sex, too.

As far as “frantically concealing the fact that I find you sexually attractive,” that’s not what I mean . . . I dont see how a man could benefit from that. The fact that the man finds the woman sexually attractive is implied.

117

[QUOTE=Roboto]
These social conventions are interesting, and I’m curious as to your opinion of why they exist.
[/QUOTE]

I think it has a lot to do with marketing research.

Did you ever notice that when you’re ordering something online and you just want to whip out your credit card and gets the goodies, the vendor always wants you to do this little dance off filling out forms that suggest what drew you to them, what sort of customer you are, and how they might attract other customers like you. They know this research has to be acquired up front, because once the deal is closed, you’re gone.

118

[QUOTE=Roboto]
First of all, this is a supposition. I am not whining about how I can’t get laid. I’m currently in a NSA relationship with a woman in my apartment complex. We enjoy each other’s company, have dinner from time to time, and also have sex most times we hang out. However, I can’t just say “hey, we’re going to have sex now” despite the fact that we’ve had sex about a dozen times.
[/quote]

How do you know this? Have you tried to express yourself frankly and see how she reacts? It could be that I’m just anamolous, but I’m a woman who prefers the man who acts like he wants to sleep with me and is not afraid to express that sentiment with the crudest of terms. In fact, I’d be insulted and embarrassed by the cutsey “let’s watch a movie” pretenses, especially since it’s not hard to see through them.

Maybe she’d appreciate it if you abandoned the act and just kept it real.

119

[QUOTE=you with the face]
How do you know this? Have you tried to express yourself frankly and see how she reacts? It could be that I’m just anamolous, but I’m a woman who prefers the man who acts like he wants to sleep with me and is not afraid to express that sentiment with the crudest of terms. In fact, I’d be insulted and embarrassed by the cutsey “let’s watch a movie” pretenses, especially since it’s not hard to see through them.

Maybe she’d appreciate it if you abandoned the act and just kept it real.
[/QUOTE]
I think she likes the act. I’m operating on the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” assumption. Watching movies works well for us. It’s fun to have the movie on in the background, it’s fun to pick a movie that’s mindless and fun because we know we won’t watch most of it anyway. It’s easy to start foreplay as we watch. The movie has its role, I guess. If I called her and said, “will you come over for sex” I think it would be very unsmooth and ruin the prospect of having sex with her in the future, which I don’t want. Maybe later on, the pretending will be replaced with bluntness as we grow more comfortable in our sexual relationship, but I’ll let her dictate that.

120

[QUOTE=Roboto]
If I called her and said, “will you come over for sex” I think it would be very unsmooth and ruin the prospect of having sex with her in the future, which I don’t want.
[/QUOTE]

I could be wrong, but I think you’re projecting some of your own insecurities on to her. You don’t think being frank and honest sounds smooth enough, so you play it safe by hiding behind the game. Maybe she’s okay with this game because you seem to enjoy playing it. But she might be just as okay with you telling it to her straight. You don’t know because you haven’t tried it with her.