I’d like to insert a side comment to this. What may be overlooked is that for women an indifferent shag is quite often not an enjoyable experience. Back in the day, I quickly discovered that the sort of men who viewed me as “woman - possible venue for sex” were usually not interested in whether or not I had a good time. In my experience, those sort of men are so focused on their goals that they don’t have any insight into the fact that there are two people involved. It was always about them having sex, not about any sort of “we” are having sex. The sort of man whose first goal is sex, and who is not thinking of the women he deals with as anything more than a possible resource, is not the sort of man who will provide me with anything I value. Therefore, home alone with the toys is a better option - at least I know I will enjoy myself.
The problem with that is, it’s not a realistic question, and it’s not a pertinent question. The question here is, do most men habitually spend, say, four hours of an evening spewing out conversation in which they have little to no interest with the basic view that this is for the purpose of getting sex. Not do most men ever do this? According to you, men pretty much always do this. Yes, they might find that the conversation is a tad more interesting than they expected, but that given a choice then, at the end of virtually every evening, between going home with the inane bimbo to get laid or calling the girl whose conversation you enjoyed the next day with the idea of getting together (quite possibly without sex) again, they will pretty much always choose the bimbo.
You know, one guy I dated - and this is absolutely true and absolutely unmistakable - was highly impressed with me because at the end of the first date, I gave him a chaste kiss or something of the sort (it might have even been a handshake), rather than just leading him into the bedroom. He called me the next day to demand if I knew what a tachyon was, and he was utterly thrilled that I did. He told me these things flat out, after we were living together in an SO relationship, so there was no seduction value here. Sure, he liked sex just fine - quite a lot, as I recall. But what he actually wanted was something more.
Would he have still stuck with me if sex weren’t a possibility? I don’t know. Our relationship eventually got rocky and broke up a year or two later. But I DO know there are husbands of women who are disabled and unabled to have sex anymore who nonetheless remain loving and faithful husbands, because what their wives give them is more important to them than sex.
So yeah, I’d say the guy who picks sex over conversation *every time * (or even most times) is pretty darned pathetic. The guy who does it occasionally is normal - we all have our times when we want what we want, and what we want is physical rather than intellectual or emotional. And if you, as a guy, haven’t had any sex in quite some time and/or rarely have the chance to have sex, you may well value the opportunity to get some more than the opportunity to hook up with someone who matches you as a person. I can understand that, but it’s an understanding mixed with pity. Because a regular four or five hour investment for a five minute engagement is an awfully big cost-to-benefit ratio, and that five minute engagement really doesn’t seem to me to be worth the obsession you guys put into it, if that’s all there is to it. I mean, if that’s really your highest criterion, you’re investing an awful lot into - what? Push comes to shove, an orgasm. Doesn’t last very long, can’t do it all the time. Can’t even do it most of the time.
As I said from the start, boring. If that’s your primary interest, you’re just not very interesting to me, or to a lot of women. Dunno about you, but I’ve got better things to do with my time. Sex is fine, sex is great. But it’s just not that important, because most of the time you’re not having sex, and you never will be having it most of the time - you’re not biologically capable, and you’d probably come to hate it if you were.
Sorry, Frank, I got a little hot under the collar there. My apologies.
Yes, unfounded personal attacks are much better with diplomacy.
I think the question is definitely pertinent. Why don’t you?
Here again, you mistakingly think I’m saying that sex is all that matters. It is quite likely that the man will enjoy the conversation also.
This is a pretty good argument. The defence for my side would be:
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There are probably overall more husbands in this kind of situation who do not stay faithful.
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Maybe the husband is old. The values probably change at some point.
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If the wife is dying soon, that will be more important than sex.
This seems kind of unfair to me. I might enjoy your company a lot, and like talking to you. We might have a lot of things in common. I might even know what a tachyon is. But all this doesn’t matter, only because I think sex is the most important factor.
I don’t think my attack was unfounded. The combined unlikeliness of your claims, I think, is a rather valid reason for doubting them. I can show you what an unfounded attack looks like, for future reference:
As it has no basis in fact, you are mistaken.
Since your demonstrated response to a woman sharing her experiences is to call her a liar, though, I think your charm has been well-displayed.
Obviously. But they don’t seem to gravitate at all to a smart(ass) (balding) (salt & pepper) brunet.
Men want to have sex with women who find sex with men repulsive/a waste of time/boring*. Film at 11. Bow-chicka-bow!
- I think it’d be really funny to have a Jaywalking segment with a diagram of the female anatomy and have the goal of asking men to locate the clitoris. How many could do it? 10% maybe?
Thank you! I do read sites and posts from guys like that and shudder, but mostly I think “Thanks for the Warning!”.
It’s always nice to have some sort of warning toward the little tricks and stuff that that sort of man tries to pull. And despite the couple of posters in this thread who insists otherwise, I don’t think that all men are constant and slavering victims of their own sexuality. Like several other women have mentioned, I’ve had very good experiences with the opposite sex, both romantically and with friends and coworkers. I’m just not having the best of luck romantically right now. That certainly doesn’t sour me on all men, or all interactions with men and make me think they’re all big tricksters and players. But I DO like being forewarned as to those that are that way.
IMHO, There is a big difference between a slight and unconscious appreciation of a woman’s sexual attractiveness, and perhaps a natural and vague curiosity as to what she’d be like to have sex with and entering every interaction with a woman with the express purpose of having sex if at all possible.
If that’s a comment on my posts, I think I should point out that I don’t find sex with men to be repulsive, a waste of time, or boring, and believe me, I’ve had a lot of it! I just don’t think it’s the single most important thing in a relationship (or even in a date), and I think men who do think that tend to be rather dull. I would also find a man whose primary interest in life was some other purely physical pleasure, such as eating or playing a sport, rather dull. He might very well have occasional interesting moments, but if the main interest in his life is that physical thrill, well, to me that’s pretty lame. I’ve met a fair number of men who seem to have interests that are a lot more compelling to them (and that has certainly been born out in the long run), so I don’t think the idea that sex is the all-consuming interest that certain posters above have claimed is universal.
Sex is one pleasure among many. I have many qualities, one of which is the ability to show a man a good time in bed. If that’s the primary interest a man has in me, it’s a waste for both of us. There are probably better (and certainly easier) choices for him, and I have ways of spending an evening that are more enjoyable than listening to some guy try to convince me he’s enchanted by my intellect just to get me into bed.
So, yeah, mr. jp, the fact that sex is your number one interest does render you less interesting to me, even if we might occasionally manage a real conversation, and I regret to inform you that you’re off my to-do list unless I’m in that rare mood where sex is all I’m interested in (I haven’t been in that mood for a good twenty years, so I wouldn’t hold my breath). I’m sure that’s breaking your heart. 
I think my short answer to the question of “why must men pretend they don’t want to sleep with women” is this:
A man’s sexual needs are not a woman’s responsibility to take care of. If they’re in a committed relationship, then I’d say she does have SOME responsibility (and vice versa) but even at that. The way Roboto and others are talking about men, a woman could almost get the image of some dog humping somebody’s leg, no matter how many times you try to brush him off. Ew. I mean. Ew.
This however does not jibe with the actual men I actually know. I’m inordinately grateful for this. Even if the men have to “pretend”.
No, I understand Oy! (am I supposed to put a period after your name? Ahh!). Envisioning myself as a woman, I wouldn’t want to have sex with most of the men I know either.
Mentally transpose every men/man for woman/women. It’s really funny!
Erm…we’re talking about guys right? They’ll fake entire relationships once they have a girl on the hook that will give them nookie. Four hours, an entire day or weekend, whatever it takes to reel 'em in. How old are you again?
Personally, I’ve pretty much removed myself from the dating scene because it’s just not worth the effort IMO. Sex is nice and all and was really exciting the first couple times…but jerking off is actually sane under a cost/benefit analysis. If a girl comes along someday and we click right then that’ll be nice, but until then…meh.
I’m way late at this point, but I thought of a fairly simple explanation for the question in the thread title:
Why do men pretend?
Many, many, many (most?) girls are repeatedly told (by mothers, fathers, Sunday school teachers, older sisters, etc.) to be careful, because all boys think about is getting into their panties.
Boys, in the spirit of “forewarned is forearmed”, are aware that the girls are being told these things and so they come up with ways to (hopefully) get around these warnings.
These techniques work for a while, and they become second nature.
At some point (late teens, early 20s, perhaps), the “But I love you sooooo much” and “If you love me you’ll let me” lines stop working, because the girls have heard these too many times. They don’t fall for that any more. And so the young men come up with something different. In an effort to appear all grown up, they (we) endeavor to put the old ways behind us and become enlightened gentlemen who see women as people rather than sex objects. We start to encounter women who have been burned too many times by the “wham-bam-thank-you-ma’am” types, and we attempt to set ourselves apart from them. And we’re completely unaware that we’re now using the same techniques as the jerks.
(As an aside, I’ve never understood those wham-bam-thank-you-ma’am guys. That is, the guys who dump the girl once they “get what they wanted”. I was always of the opinion that, if this girl is willing to have sex with me once, I’m gonna keep her around because maybe she’ll have sex with me again. And what’s with these guys who are finished in five minutes? Don’t they know what a tongue is for?)
Women pretend, too. Why do you think there is all the commentary about once you get married, all sex stops?
I was out having dinner with about 5 good friends, and the topic of sex came up. When I mentioned that I have sex almost everyday with my husband, even after being married for 13 years, a hush came over the group. They all thought I was crazy. Sex is a chore, something last on the list. Perhaps kinda squicky as well. But I bet when they were dating, and wooing their husbands, they were much more amenable, and available.
But yes, I do think there is a sexual evaluation going on all the time, in most relationships, and chance encounters.
I’m a little baffled by this whole discussion. A man who asks me out (or for that matter, one who doesn’t) would like to have sex with me? Well, duh. I don’t understand the problem. Wanting to have sex with me certainly doesn’t rule out actually *liking * me. And if that’s **not ** the case, well, I’m pretty sure I’m astute enough to notice the difference.
Who are these men who are willing to devote hours and hours of their lives and a not insignificant amount of money to wooing women they don’t like, with the sole intention of bedding them? It’s one thing to meet a woman at a bar, buy her a couple of drinks, fuck her, and not be interested in seeing her again. But why *date * someone you don’t like, just in an *attempt * to get sex? It’s not as though sex is that hard to get. Why work so hard? I’m sure that there are a *few * guys who are pathologically misogynistic enough to fuck with women just for the fun of it, but on the whole, I’ve always considered the “We dated for a month, it was great, I had sex with him, and never heard from him again” guy an urban legend. I’ve sure as hell never met him. And besides, if it’s wrong for a guy to regard dates as a means to secure future sex, then I don’t understand why it would be right for a woman to regard sex as a means to secure future dates.
And ladies, are you really that incapable of judging a man’s interest in you? If a man is telling me on our third date that he loves me, I’m running like hell, and not for the bedroom. Who does that, except crazy stalkers, or people who think you’re stupid?
I suspect a good part of the cognitive disconnect I have with some people here is that the dating scene didn’t make sense to me when I was fourteen, and hasn’t gotten any more logical since then, so I never got involved in it. The whole “go out with someone to see if one ever wanted to go out with them” concept, just too weird for me.
Which means that I have only gotten partners from the selection of men I know whose behaviour (including behaviour towards women) I have had the opportunity to observe. I spend pretty much all my time with geeks, engineers, and similar folks, which means the sort of thing being described as “default male behaviour” by others is stuff that I have not encountered on a regular basis since junior high school.
Good point, and I HATE those types of women, they give we nymphos, errr I mean normal girls, a bad name!
On the other hand, it may be what a previous poster brought up. Only no so much that too many men can’t find the clitoris, but that far too many don’t care to make sex good for the woman, and are the aforementioned “wham bam, thank you ma’am” types even IN a committed relationship.
I was thinking about this some more the other night. The fact that most women are looking for a relationship, and see casual sex as an obstacle to that end, is not the only reason they aren’t more willing to engage in casual sex.
A huge reason is that we women, unlike men, aren’t guaranteed an orgasm simply from 5 minutes of ordinary intercourse. For most of us, it takes some finessing and technique.
Second reason is, that even if we are interested in a casual encounter, too many men have the attitude of “whoo hoo, I scored and you’re the dumb slut I tricked into it”. Rather than a mutually friendly and respectful attitude toward the woman who shares her body with him.
IMHO, those two reasons, (were they the opposite of what they are), would probably outweigh a lot of women’s resistance regarding waiting for the right man, and in men’s favor (in other words, if men changed their attitudes and behaviour they’d get laid a LOT more, and a lot more without having to play all the games and wade through all the strings and phone calls and such).
Well, some of us are just tired. Multiple kids, a hundred things to get done every day, and no “time off”, no “quitting time”, you can’t check out at the end of the work day, go home, and relax. There’s still the dishwasher to be emptied at midnight, and clothes to fold. Sex? I’d like to be able to want it that often. Maybe someday I will again, when the kids are bigger, or whatever. Maybe, if a man has to choose between sleep and sex, he’ll take sex every time, but most of the time I’d rather have sleep. That’s something I rarely get enough of.
And I wanted to say something else, and I suppose it’s been said before: when men, particularly young men, won’t take no for an answer - and I don’t mean using force or violence or threats (which is a separate issue and a problem all its own when it happens) - but beg and wheedle and plead, or turn her own sexual inexperience against her, the young woman can get either worn down, eventually agreeing to something against her better judgment, her morals, or her religious beliefs…or she can end up feeling resentful that she is always the one who MUST say ‘no’, or even feel betrayed by her own body, which responds sexually and gets out of control, when her mind is saying “I shouldn’t, I mustn’t, I could get pregnant, I could get a disease.”
I remember feeling all these things in my late teens and early 20s. It was a relief for a time to join a church that gave me structure, and forbade all that sex stuff. Eventually it stifled far too much of my self, and I broke away. But it really was a relief to have a reason to avoid the whole relationship thing as sinful. It kept me away from men as men, pushing, pushing, always pushing the boundaries I had already drawn, to see how far they could get.
Diana, if I buy an autograph book, will you sign it for me?
Heck, if I’m not thinking about the possibility of having sex with him, it’s not “a date”. It’s “going to see a movie”.
But I’d like to have some kisses before we rip out the rubbers.