Well, the Don Juan Forum is another great resource of men exchanging all those pick-up tricks with other players. Some of the men on that site are looking for LTR (Long Term Relationships) but many are looking for just that notch in their bedpost. Girls, read it and shudder. AFAIK, there is no female equivalent to that site, and I don’t think the myriad “How to look your best with make-up and clothes” sites count.
I feel the need to clarify that what I meant by “not be obvious that it’s the main reason you’re interested in her” is not that you should pretend it’s not the main reason you’re interested in her, but that you actually be interested in her as a person. The other stuff will come later, or not, as the case may be.
I think you are misinterpreting a lot of events, and also that you are lying.
Sex is the main reason to spend time with girls. Establishing that is quite easy. Ask a random portion of the male population the following question “Assume that you are single, and you meet an attractive, interesting woman. You start a relationship with her, in which you cannot date other women. Now, you can choose in this relationship between not being about to have sex, and not being able to have conversations above 1 minute. What do you choose?”
mr jp, my experiences match Lilairen’s. But IMHO it’s quite likely you can both be right, and that men are just not all the same. So let me ask you this: with how many guys have you openly discussed these things, and how many of them have been in one or more of the situations Lilairen describes?
Look, I’m not bitter. YES women are great. Great to spend time with, great to talk with, great to have for friends, great to have sex with. I’d much much prefer to have sex with an interesting person that I can relate to than somebody who isn’t compatible.
But consider the scenario. Would you rather spend an evening with an attractive smart woman you have a lot in common with and enjoy talking to, but know you’re never ever going to have sex with her, or going out with some sub-par woman who you know will have sex with you?
Yeah, the reality is that sometimes it’s just not worth it, even for the sex. Because the reality is there’s no way to “just have sex”. There’s always more too it.
So I’m fully reconciled to the fact that 99.9% of the women in the world would thrown up in their mouths a bit at the thought of having sex with me. And the other 0.1% are thinking, “meh”. That’s just the way it is, and this is simply a consequence of the way mammalian reproduction works. For the male, sex is 5 minutes. For the female, sex means an 18 year commitment.
And I’m not talking about looks when I talk about below average guys. I’m talking looks, personality, ability to provide, friendliness, non-psychoness, all that. Half of all men are below average. And there are plenty of women who are very attracted to guys who aren’t “good looking”, that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about guys who as a total package just aren’t very interesting.
And I don’t contend that men “only want to get laid”. Of course not, men have plenty of other things we like to do, including hanging out with women, having conversations with women, interacting with women, not just beer and computer games and sports and such. So men aren’t only interested in sex, but the ARE interested in sex. So if I were dating, I wouldn’t bother with a woman if I knew she’d never have sex with me, because that’s not exactly unusual, just about every woman in the world doesn’t want to have sex with me, and for good reason. So I’m looking for the handful that do, and when I found one who was smart and loving and friendly and all that who ALSO wanted to have sex with me, I married her. It wouldn’t make much sense to marry a woman who didn’t want to have sex with me, would it? Like I said, there’s plenty of those. I’ve got nothing against having female friends, and in general I’d rather be friends with a woman than a man, women are just more interesting in general.
Are you serious? You know men who don’t consider whether women are sexually attractive or not? You know a person who has “ended [a] relationship when he realised that he was treating [his partner] as a sex object because he thought that that was a disgustingly neanderthal attitude to take”?
I think similar issues have come up in conversations with all of my male friends. And I’m quite certain none of them would choose the first option in my question. (Perhaps one of them would prefer neither.) Are you saying that the people you know would choose the first option?
Anyone who seriously reads these sites/books for clues on how to pick up women is pretty much a loser. Here’s how you do it - you talk to as many different women as possible. You invite as many of them as you can through the dating process. There’s no magic trick to it. Look how many douchbags are out there getting laid. It’s not because they are rich or charming or good looking. It’s just a numbers game. You throw enough bullshit around and eventually something sticks.
Oh, I believe that about men.
But, you see, since you men can’t continuously have intercourse - you are biologically obligated to rest between orgasms - some of them find that in between the rounds of heady sex that women can be interesting for reasons other than having an available vaginia. I don’t expect ya’ll to stop wanting sex 24/7, but most men learn how to interact with women they have effectively zero chance of having sex with. For men, friendship-without-sex may not as fulfilling as friendship-with-sex when it comes to women, but such friendships do occur and are real (non-sexual) relationships.
If nothing else, the practice at non-sexual interaction helps to hone their social skills, enabling them to be more interesting and charming to the women they actually have a chance of screwing.
No wonder you’re such a charmer with the ladies.
Yeah, right. In my single days I had plenty of meaningless sex and never expected or wanted a committment from 99% of the men I slept with.
Fortunately the virgin/slut thing never meant much to me so I slept who who I wanted when I wanted to and never felt guilty about it. I have pretty much always known that guys want to sleep with me and wouldn’t expect them to try to manipulate their way around that fact. Women who figure that out early have the power.
This whole stereotype of women wanting a committment with every fling flies in the face of reality and of real women and men I’ve known. I’ve known guys who want commitment and women who have told them to go home. Maybe there’s a gender reversal in my social network, but I don’t think it’s that uncommon.
I wish. :sad:
[quote=Lemur866]
Men wanna have sex with women, yes?
[quote]
Speak for yourself. 
I too have actually known men who <gasp> chose not to have sex when offered, even by someone attractive. I’ve also known men who would bang anything they could insert their penis into. Some of them well into their fifties or even sixties.
I’m telling you, there are a fair number of men out there whose first aim in life is not that of getting laid. I’m not saying they’re any more immune to the random thought upon seeing someone highly ornamental that they sure as hell wouldn’t mind sleeping with that (this can be summed up in the simple word “Damn!”, properly pronounced with two syllables) than anyone else - women get that random thought too, btw. I’m just saying that they can enjoy a conversation with a woman whom they find quite sexually attractive and not be constantly plotting as to how they can get her into bed. They may be quite aware that they’d like to sleep with her, even hoping they may get the opportunity, but they’re actually enjoying the time they’re spending in the meantime, and would not consider it a total waste of their time if they ended up not sleeping with her. Really. There are guys like that. I suspect that most of them are guys who have managed to be successful sexually enough to realize that it’s just not worth all that. Don’t get me wrong - sex is great. But it’s not the only thing that’s great, and many of the other things that are great can actually be enjoyed with women, even attractive women. Shocking concept, isn’t it?
You guys who insist that all men are pure horndogs - it sounds to me a lot like you’re looking for affirmation for being what most women consider jerks. Oddly enough, one of your apologizers put it perfectly - for men, it’s 5 minutes (and by no means necessarily more than that for women, btw - we’re not all looking for The One, and if we were, you quite likely wouldn’t be it. :D). So what the hell is the big deal? I’ll grant you that sex with another person offers the potential for greater physical pleasure than one could get on one’s own, but surely a professional could give you that same sensation, and she’d be perfectly willing to do pretty much anything you had in mind and come as close as she could to meeting your expectations - something you wouldn’t necessarily get (or even be willing to ask) from a social partner. So why bother chatting up women?
Obviously, you’re getting something more from it. Well, either that or you’re stupid.
As for you, roboto, seriously, dude, just look for girls who only want to play and find their liking or disliking of the partner largely irrelevant, or buy yourself hookers. Lying or faking is just going to create hassle for you, and quite likely hurt people - clearly not you, unless the girl breaks your dick, but some people actually have feelings above the waist. I don’t know if you’ll understand why this might be a problem, but you can start by looking up the word ‘empathy’ in the dictionary, followed by the word ‘ethical’.
mr. jp, I should have included you with roboto. Good Lord, guy, what are you - 13? Or do you just play an incredibly immature teenager with absolutely nothing to offer (and preciously little chance of getting any) on TV?
I agree. I sometimes have this type of conversation myself. But I don’t see how you conclude from this that the first aim not is to get laid. Just because sex is the most important thing, it doesn’t mean that everything else is irrelevant.
What are you worked up about? My argument that sex is the most important thing (but not the only important thing), or my doubting of Lilairens incredible tale of acquaintances and ex-boyfriends reasons for leaving her?
Your calm assumption that Lilairen must be lying or mistaken.
I hope some day you reach a point in your life when five minutes of physical sensation is not the most important thing you can imagine getting out of an interaction with another human being. Because that’s pretty freaking pathetic, you know?
I do not believe that all those things she mentioned were true. I guess I could have been more diplomatic about it. But she annoyed me with her personal attacks.
Did you read my suggestion for a question you could make in order to decide whether sex is the main reason to spend time with women? Do you agree that this is a fair way to decide it? Do you think that almost all guys except me would choose the no sex option? If not, do you think most guys are freaking pathetic, and not just me?
I’d like to ask those who are getting hot and bothered to remember that this is not the Pit.
I can see truth in that. But I’m still not convinced that most women wanting a roll in the sack evaluate men all that differently than women wanting a long-term thing. What’s sexy to women is what’s sexy to women: someone who’s strong, forward, purposeful, and a little callow.
I might be the exception then. I wasn’t terribly particular when I just wanted sex, but I was very very choosy when it came to a long-term partner.
There’s nothing wrong with consensual adult sex that is based on completely superficial qualities. As long as both know it’s just sex you can have fun with no strings. Don’t think that women don’t enjoy a dumb blonde every once in a while. 