Or, yet another predestination debate.
Are there some that He will deliberately exclude from following Him? Is it possible to search for God and be told that you are one of those whom He has not chosen and will be doomed to an eternity in hell?
Well, you can’t find him if he ain’t there, you know. And if you’re searching for a “Christian deity” who dooms people to an eternity of hell as punishment for not finding him, well…
garbage in, garbage out.
If you believe “yes”, the answer is “yes”. If you believe “no”, the answer is “no”. More than that is probably more than anyone can provide.
quote:
"Will all who sincerely search for the Christian deity find Him?
Or, yet another predestination debate.
Are there some that He will deliberately exclude from following Him? Is it possible to search for God and be told that you are one of those whom He has not chosen and will be doomed to an eternity in hell?’"
question 1.
First I will speak from my expierence on this question. I believe that if anyone “sincerely” searches for the Creator of all things, the creator will respond 100 fold. Now the question is what is “sincerely” searching. In my life the first time I had a unmistakeable interaction with The creator was when I cried out to The creator in tears and brokeness of my heart. I was trying to learn to love my girlfriend at the time, but the harder I/we tried it seemed the relationship got more and more painful. Well anyways this brokeness and I do mean brokeness propelled me to look to heaven after another attempt me and my girlfreiend made to work things out. the discussion we had brought me to tears and I went outside to try and clear my head and get some fresh air. As I was outside in tears , I looked to heaven and asked “why?”, “how” “what do I…?, what can I do?” I cant remeber what exactly i muttered in tears or even if the words even came out. I won’t teell of what my answers where that night in the post or how The creator answered me. but I tell you from my exp. that when I was at a point of utter brokeness, **while trying to love someone else, I called for help and I was answered. I think if you truely deep deep deep in your heart want help you will recieve it. If you lack faith that there even is a God / Creator of all, then start there. Ask the heavens for faith in the One who made you, what have we got to loose? If there is no God then you will have only wasted your breathe (which you probably do anyways) and if there is a God and you get an answer it might change your life forever.
If you are speaking of the God of The Bible, then I will say to you that “No, if you seek Yahweh (God of The Bible) sincerely AND you want to obey what he asks YOU to do, then you would not be excluded from his presence in Heaven”
For example look to the pages of The Bible for the story of Saul.
He was persecuting the followers of The Son of God, the disciples. He was having them killed by his command. THEN…under their God’s great mercy he was forgiven for what he had done and became one of the Greatest Disciples of all. He found forgiveness and mercy in the God who he was persecuting. Many of lessons of The New Testament are about forgiveness, newness, hope, being changed from your core, to a greater purpose then before, a calling. Anyways if any “TRUELY” seek forgiveness, or faith, or “true” wisdom then I know that from my expierences in life, The creator of us all will respond. I don’t believe he wants us to suffer like we do and for the purposes we live for. But many of US don’t turn to our maker for our help.
sorry if I babled a little here, I don’t write much, but I wanted to pass on whatever I could to help you have some understanding that was given to me.
thnx for the post ^^) cya, jason
I sincerly searched and didn’t find anything. Only more questions leading to poorly answered questions served as answers.
I would imagine there are stories of people finding God without even looking. Proves nothing IMO. I agree with Ultrafilter, and QM- If I did find him, doesn’t mean I would like him.
I’d be very interested if we could find an answer to this question. I don’t think I’ll ever get over worrying that I’ll say “Lord, Lord,” and Jesus will say “I never knew you.” How can one be sure one’s not in this position?
Reading Oswald Chambers and the like automatically sends me into the depths of this kind of mood. My belief in an all-loving God keeps getting frustrated by the Bible itself, as well as commentary on this board by hard-liner interpreters of scripture. God seems quite anxious to toss people into the pit, and every time I read a Biblical list of people who aren’t going to make the cut, honesty forces me to place myself on that list.
Another poster negatively mentioned people who lead “a life of sin” and I instantly thought: Everyone leads a life of sin. Who can claim to do otherwise? I not only have no confidence in my own salvation; I wonder how anyone can have confidence.
Thanks to the OP for this debate; I’ll be mostly sitting on the sidelines but reading intently.
God isn’t anxious to toss people into the pit. He’s provided a way not to go there through Christ’s shed blood and death, all you need do is accept it. And God is love but He’s also more than that which many refuse to acknowledge. I’d like to share this link with you:
As to the initial question about predestination - the Old Book the Christians consider holy says God is eternal. Always was, always is, always will be.
From our point of view, it looks as though God pre-chooses us and the ‘lost’ are lost by God’s will.
Really, if God is eternal, then his point of view is one not bound by time, so he knows who are his from outside time, because the end of time is known to him.
Our lives, our entire perspectives are bound within time, birth to death, beginnings and endings. We cannot fathom nor understand what an eternal existence is like.
It is for this reason that people mistake God’s view as ‘predestination’, but I wonder - ‘pre’ implies time. Is a being outside of time bound by ‘pre’?
Don’t you think Jesus would be sad to know you’re spending your life worrying because of Him? He doesn’t seem to me like the kind of guy who would send you packing if you did your best in life. What “Biblical list of people who aren’t going to make the cut” are you talking about?
Not that this is by ANY means my belief system, but: even for those hardcore Calvinists who believe in total predestination, I’ve never heard they believe that anyone can sincerely seek God and not find Him. It’s just that they think it’s not possible even to sincerely seek God of your own will, without His electing you. Total Depravity and all.
Actually, I was thinking of Polycarp when I posted this – I believe that at one point he had mentioned something about people searching for God and not finding anything.
masonite, I think you have really hit the nail on the head. It seems like nobody knows, but all want to hope that they are in fact chosen. But where is the point where one should give up and say, “I was not chosen.”?
ultrafilter, excellent point. I suppose there is no real “answer” until we’re all dead anyway.
Highlander_68, that does make me want to place my bets on the possibility of God making other choices with us after our mortal deaths.
king of spain, that could be my problem – I wasn’t even chosen to look for God! 
H4e, I’ll go back and read that site when it doesn’t bother my eyes so. I’ve never seen such an overuse of colors!
Conversely, you could accept the Four Noble Truths:
- Nothing lasts forever. All things decay and die.
2.Suffering is caused by desire.
3.One can end suffering by extinguishing desire.
- Follow the Middle Way between asceticism and hedonism by practicing the Eight-Fold Path.
[ul]
[li]Right Understanding[/li][li]Right Thought[/li][li]Right Speech[/li][li]Right Action[/li][li]Right Livelihod[/li][li]Right Effort[/li][li]Right Mindfulness[/li][li]Right Concentration[/li][/ul]
Is this a sincere search?: I shuffle a deck of cards and record the ordering of the cards. I then require that an Elect independently duplicate this ordering or reveal what mine was as an indication of divine omnicensce or preordination or telepathy or whatever miraculous characteristic you want to call it.
You hear stories like this. A person does not believe in God, but then a family member recovers from an accident or cancer and they take this as a miracle showing God’s existence. How come good will do this to convince someone, but he wont make a coin fall in a certain pattern of heads/tails to satisfy me?
Well, it seems to me (as an outsider) that if your primary purpose is to seek God in order to gain personal salvation, then you’ve already got way too much ego involvement. You’re not really looking for God, you’re looking out for yourself.
It’s no different from seeking God because you think He’ll give you a winning lottery ticket.
I personally much prefer the soi-disant Old Testament God. You don’t “seek” God, you try to walk in His ways, to do good and give charity, to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Then God will find you.
lel, as to your first question, I believe that ALL who sincerely seek for God will find Him. But I would add that your question includes an essential part of that search – sincerity. This encompass not only the search itself but the response upon finding God.
Please realize that there are those whose search is less than sincere. Some are seeking merely an academic knowledge of His existence; some are looking for a spiritual Santa Claus; and some are looking for a whipping boy upon whom they can avenge every sorrow in their life. Others really would like to know about God, but are unwilling to take the next step, which is to accept His leadership of their life.
As to your second question, No, I don’t believe that He will exclude anyone from seeking Him. There are, however, some who exclude themselves from God; and this is not merely a matter of semantics. It’s that each one is allowed to choose whether or not to even seek Him.
As to your third question, No, it’s not possible to sincerely search and end up being told, “Sorry, you’re doomed.” I believe that the concept that some are predestined to Hell no matter how much they desire otherwise is the result of misinterpretation of a few verses of Scripture. A correct understanding of these verses reveals that the choice lies with the individual rather than God.
I would also posit that if you are even feeling a stirring in your heart to seek for God, then you can be confident that He will accept you if you come. Because that initial prompting is itself an invitation from God. And if He invites you, He’ll surely receive you if you respond.
All of these replies are based on my belief that God truly wants everyone to come to Him. Anyone who really wants to be with Him forever has that opportunity. However, He will respect the wishes of those who don’t want to be with Him because they feel they would be unhappy to be in His presence for eternity. I believe He wants to accept as many as possible into Heaven, not keep as many as possible out of Heaven.
I’m fairly new to this board, so I don’t know if it’s appropriate for a newbie to extend a welcome to others; but if it’s not a breach of protocol, I’d like to say “Welcome” to jasonEric and to Highlander_68. I hope you each find this board to be as interesting as I have. I find it’s helpful to lurk more than post for awhile.
masonite, I don’t think you need to worry if you are sincerely following what you believe to be right. I think that Jesus’ “not knowing” someone will be applied only to those hypocrites who claim His name (Christians) but who fail to live up to that assertion. You are correct that everyone leads a life of sin, and that no one can be confident of salvation due to their own goodness. Fortunately it’s not our goodness that saves us.
“…a sincere search for the Christian deity…”
IANADentist, but do you mind if I probe a little bit here? (Let me know if I touch a nerve... you may feel a little pressure ... this may sting for a moment)
Is it possible for me to sincerely search for icebergs in the Caribbean? If I lose my car keys in Seattle, is it sincere for me to search for them in Boston? Should I look in the right places, or is there virtue in the simple act of looking?
If I am searching for the Christian deity, am I taking seriously the source documents of the Christian faith (ie Old & New Testaments)? Matthew 7 says that those who seek shall find. I take it as a matter of faith that truthfulness is a characteristic of the Christian deity; that God always holds up God's end of the deal.
Further, just who do you think put the desire into your heart to search for the Christian deity? Isn't that something God does in the first place?
What about prayer? What about worship? Is the search purely a rational exercise, or is there something more / different to it? I can spend a lot of time rationally developing a proof for the existence of Mrs. Juneau, and with utmost sincerity; but when you get right down to it, our relationship is the most important thing. I understand that "relationship" is a pretty big deal for the Christian deity.
Well, ok. Rinse and spit, and be sure to floss. That wasn't so bad, was it?But first you’ve got to meet her before you can develop a relationship. You can’t put the “develop a relationship” part before the “be introduced to” part.
In other words, it’s nonsensical to tell people who aren’t yet convinced that God exists that they should trust him. Trust who?
Point taken, MEBuckner.
I'm saying that God always makes the first move. Somewhere in my (heart, soul, spirit, essence of being) I find a restlessness that prompts me to start asking questions that will lead me in the direction of relationship.
And, in matters of faith (and love), intellect has an important part to play, but can't be our only tool.
Hmmmm... Do you ever really search for something you don't think is there? (apart from the SETI folks, that is) :)Sounds pretty “Zen” to me C K Dex; sort of a message of “If you want to find what you’re looking for, quit looking for it. And as long as you’re not busy not looking for it…go wash your rice bowl!” 
Joe Shmoe met his friend John Doe crawling about slowly in the hallway, peering nearsightedly at the floor. “What’s going on, John?” he asked.
“My contact lens popped out,” John explained.
Being a helpful sort, Joe got down to look as well. The search proceeded fruitlessly.
“Damn. I’ll never find this thing.”
It was a cliche, but that’s what people resort to when trying to jog others’ memories, so Joe asked, “Well, where exactly were you when it popped out?”
“Oh, I was in the bathroom.”
“Er…why in the world are you looking out here, then?”
“Well, the light’s better out here.”