I think that maybe if his outburst at her had been something more general, along the lines of “Money doesn’t grow on trees” or “Oh just shut up and go away” then, even if it was said in a really rude and hurtful way, as long as it wasn’t a pattern of behaviour that then I would just accept the apology.
However, IME if someone is cranky about something unrelated they may act like a grumpy ass but they don’t make negative comments about something specific. It’s pretty obvious that if he brought up the issue of his wife not working outside the home, then it’s something that’s been on his mind lately or it wouldn’t have been the first thing that popped out of his mouth when he was upset. That does require further discussion.
When ISN’T domestic violence caused by a provocation of one person by another leading to physical violence? The root cause of the majority of personal crime is driven by one of two things; 1. The need for the offender to impose his or her will on the victim through violence, intimidation or social superiority, which is generally addressed by 2. A form of sociopathy that forces the offender to act outside of the boundaries of logic and common decency.
Scenario: Husband A yells at wife A because dinner isn’t on the table when he gets home. This act, as irrational as it is, is a trigger for the sociopathic anger that is buried deep within the psyche of husband A. Wife A “defends” herself from the verbal onslaught in whatever manner “I was busy, you’re early, etc. etc.” this “pushes the buttons” of husband B, who escalates the situation by getting physical in a small way first, pushing, finger poking etc. This, if left unchallenged, creates a new comfort zone for husband A who feels free enough to push it further and further, and soon, you have domestic abuse.
So yeah, with the above in context, that’s what I’m sayin.
Yelled? No, I can’t remember a time that I have. The closest I came to that was in boot camp, when the horseplay started making me uncomfortable (two other guys were trying to corner me and restrain me, and it brought up some extremely unpleasant memories and emotions) and I told them to cut it out a couple of times–which they ignored, as you tend to when you’re having a bit of boot camp Fight Club–and finally I yelled “FUCKING STOP!” I wasn’t physically hurt at that point, so I guess you could say it wasn’t directly caused by their actions, it was just too close for comfort to some incidents they didn’t know about.
Other than that, no, I’ve never yelled at someone because I was mad about something completely unrelated. That sounds like a symptom of a serious problem. I’ve certainly taken an irritated or angry tone about something, and said hurtful things, but generally I’ve immediately realized I went too far. I apologized and explained why I said what I did and what it really meant. Example: “I’m sorry I took that tone with you about X. X is kind of a big deal to me, but something I need to work out on my own. I think what really happened is I was frustrated about Y, which we need to work out.” Then we worked it out. I can think of only one relationship where this kind of resolution strategy didn’t work, and I dumped her because it just wasn’t meant to be. Well, there was another one, but that was a little different: she couldn’t take the same good-natured ribbing that she dished out, to the point where she would cry if I made a joke that was as harsh as the ones she used on me. The problem there, actually, was that she wasn’t willing to talk about it, she just cried and told me I was a terrible person for not taking her feelings into consideration.
I don’t. That doesn’t mean that people who do are automatically evil, awful people–we all handle frustrations in different ways. But the wife had, as someone else said, a harrowing experience. I think the issue is that someone can say they’re sorry for subjecting someone else to that, but that doesn’t mean it’s actually going to stop, or they actually understand why what they did was wrong. My dad has always done that–if you strike the wrong chord you can have him foaming at the mouth about something completely unrelated in under 20 minutes, and then the next day he’ll say “Sorry, I was a little harsh.” But that doesn’t mean it ever actually stops. Nobody should have to live with that. Unfortunately, I do, because I don’t have the resources to support myself. When a husband does that to his wife, that’s a whole 'nother story.
Exactly. People generally don’t make personal attacks without provocation unless there’s some underlying resentment going on. People are often most honest when they’re mad. So a quick apology is not going to reassure me that everything is peachy keen if you say something deeply personal and hurtful about me. To expect me to just nod my head and shut up about it because “there’s nothing else to talk about” is laughable.
“That’s why you can’t fuck worth a shit!” said in fit of anger by a woman, out of the blue, because she’s having a bad day? I have a haaaaard time believing that all she has to say is “sorry; let’s drop it” and the man will just forgive and forget, and not want to know where exactly this opinion is coming from.
catsix, I didn’t mean to imply that you’re being smug – what I meant to say is, it seems like you want to be heard. Or else you wouldn’t be here. I think that’s normal and healthy, and it’s the very thing we’re talking about. We all want to be heard.
It’s not like this thread is about my emotions and someone I’m in a relationship with is going ‘We need to talk.’
If I never had a discussion of any kind, I wouldn’t need the ability to speak.
What if it’s on his mind, and he regrets saying it, but he did work it out without discussion and does actually mean ‘I don’t think you have to get a job unless you want one.’?
I can’t remember where I read it but I do remember seeing somewhere that thre have been studies into the issue where they did find that in a majority of cases of domestic violence, both parties either were violent or had contributed to escalating the argument to violence. Not that it’s an excuse, but it does show that in many cases it’s a matter of taking two to tango.
Which is what I tend to mean with ‘yelled at’.
Or when a wife pokes and prods the shit out of a husband with demands that he talk about whatever feelings she believes he has, whether those beliefs are accurate or not.
I’m not looking for validation or any of that psychobabble mumbo jumbo. About the only emotion you could accurately attribute to me in this thread is amusement at the fact that I’ve seen very, very few women say ‘Yeah sometimes we do talk shit to death and it’s not necessary to Dr. Phil every argument in our whole lives.’
She can’t let it go. She has to prove her point, and she won’t let it drop until you understand exactly what her feelings are on this subject. It’s how chicks are, duh.
Really? Because, from the other side, being yelled at and merely being talked to in an irritated or angry tone are two completely different experiences. Being yelled at is much more frightening, especially in a culture that hasn’t outright condemned domestic violence for all that long, and where a significant body of people think it’s pretty normal for couples to have fistfights. (I was once sent a survey on MySpace where one of the questions was, “Have you ever been in a fistfight with anyone other than a boyfriend/girlfriend?”)
Even if my “irritated/angry tone” is the same as yelling–which, having been on the receiving end of both for most of my life, I think is a stretch–the key difference is how it’s resolved. It’s one thing to say “sorry” and just assume that the world is an OK place now, and it’s quite another to actually deal with the underlying problem that caused you to yell in the first place.
As ubiquituous as this experience apparently is for other straight men, I’ve never seen anything like it in my personal life. Maybe it’s because I actually deal with the issues that come up. Maybe it’s because I choose women who I can communicate with (that’s how my relationships start in the first place), or I dump them if it’s clear that we can’t communicate. I mean, if someone pisses you off that much just through the way they communicate on a daily basis, why would you spend your life with them? The picture I’m getting of Dinsdale’s relationship with his wife isn’t like that, but for men who do have a relationship like that with their wife, why don’t they just get off their ass and solve the problem? Work it out, divorce her, or, gee, don’t marry her in the first place. It’s not that hard to figure out whether or not you can communicate with your lover before you marry them.
Unfortunately, most people would rather be miserable, I guess. That’s the impression I get from many of my friends: they hate their relationship with their fiancee, but they’re going to get married anyway. As if that’s going to solve their problems. Then it’s a big shock when there are serious marital issues 20 years later.
Sometimes I talk shit to death. Sometimes I avoid conversations. Sometimes I let my insecurities get the better of me. Sometimes I make jokes in the middle of fights to lessen the tension. Sometimes I hold grudges. Sometimes I forgive and forget. Sometimes I misjudge someone’s mood. And sometimes I assume that if someone is quiet it means they’re angry with me.
I can see that happening, but the way you’re describing it just makes it sound as though the victim is playing some role in it. If defending yourself when someone yells at you counts as “pushing buttons,” then really, you’re pretty much screwed no matter what. Unless you just keep your mouth shut like a mute whenever you’re around your SO.
Talk shows are not good examples of adequate or even appropriate communication, nor is Dr. Phil. I was joking." I" statements may reek of psycho-babble, but they are a good way to take responsibility for your own feelings and behaviors. Instead of slamming his wife with a “you don’t really work and you need to make more money” kind of message, he could have said, “I’m concerned about our finances to the point it’s bugging me.” There is quite a difference in statements there. I don’t understand why it’s OK for him (or her) to dump on her (or him) and then just say sorry and it’s supposed to be done with. That’s sitcom territory.
Surely it’s obvious that if X doesn’t want to talk about whatever issue is at hand, but Y does, there is an impasse that won’t be resolved until either X talks or Y gives up. A solution is for X to talk OR for Y to let it go. The problem with that is that one day the situation may be reversed–and X will not be so forgiving and tolerant or that Y will only give lip service to letting it go and it will fester. This last one usually results in Y suddenly bringing up that New Year’s Eve Party of 1994 out of the blue. And much discussion, hurt feelings, slammed doors, and cold shoulders then ensue.
All of this would be all right, I suppose (and it’s up to each couple to figure out how it wants to handle these kinds of things), except that things like the festering NYE party have a way of eroding trust and respect in long term relationships. Isn’t it better to clear the air and, if not actually reach agreement, to reach a position of understanding the other’s POV?
Personal note: the whole “I’m sorry, dear” poisoned my marriage. I wasn’t looking to “win”–I wanted to understand, if not his feelings, then at least his thought process behind doing X. And he resented feeling like he had to say sorry. I resented being told that my response to occurrences were “illogical”, and he thought stonewalling was a great “win” an argument. Of course, the more minimal the response I got, the more I tried to get him to see what I was saying–and my intensifying led to his further shutting down. Nice downward spiral of shit. We were are cross purposes through a lot of stuff. Now we have some perspective, but the trust is gone and the respect is waning. Bottom line for me: if one partner upsets the balance, the other one needs to address that. But the original partner also needs to own up to the transgression. Male/female has little to do with it.
I’m confused. Throughout this thread I assumed, based on the content of the posts, that catsix was a man. But I’ve seen a few other posters referring to catsix as “she” and “her”. Help a brother out?
Catsix may not like to discuss her feelings, but she seems to know what they are. She knows what she likes and what pisses her off.
There are women who don’t know themselves as well as catsix does and who get so out of touch with their feelings that they have to be shown a page full of emoticons so that they can point to the ones which show what they are feeling. That happened to a friend of mine who had crammed her feelings back for so long that she had major depression.
It wasn’t just that she wasn’t discussing her feelings. She wasn’t allowing herself a chance to even feel the natural responses to situations that had come up in her life.
All of those “I statements” keep the responsibility for my feelings where it belongs. Catsix, you may not need those little mental assists, but it has worked for us for almost twenty-two years. And he is a man who said he didn’t want to work at marriage.
One thing is good for you, another of me. You certainly don’t have any trouble communicating!
