Will you women DROP IT already?!

In My Humble Opinion
101

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Of course, if this only happens to the OP once every few years, he should probably just learn to cope with it. If it’s weekly, I’d suggest counseling. Daily, divorce.

…

Not in the least (bitter). I just dislike attempts at manipulation and suggest the OP consider the possibility that manipulation, rather a sincere need to talk things out or some ill-defined compulsion women have to irritate men, is a factor in this pattern. I further suggest he not repeatedly recite his half of the script, in which he gets snappish and irritable and further aggravates the situation.

Of course, he should also consider the low value of this advice, insofar as I don’t know him or his wife.
[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. Didn’t mean to cast aspersions.

102

I haven’t seen this mentioned specifically, so I’ll chime in re: manipulation. I dated a woman a few years ago who was mentally ill: bipolar disorder combined with borderline personality disorder (BPD), on top of having suffered severe physical and emotional abuse from her mother. I’m not suggesting the OP’s wife is mentally ill or has suffered past abuse; rather, the nature of my ex-GFs issues simply provided me with a greatly magnified view of the type of behavior the OP describes.

Two prominent hallmarks of BPD are intense, uncontrollable emotions (exacerbated by the bipolar disorder, in the case of my ex - when she was happy she was very very happy, but when she was mad she was a nightmare) and an overwhelming fear of abandonment. The first characteristic leads to a BPD sufferer to the belief that “if I feel emotion X, so should you”. The second leads to preemptive strikes: “Since you’re inevitably going to abandon me at some point, I’d rather you do so on my terms. So I’ll serve up all the provocation you need to walk out, in case you’re just sticking around out of pity for poor me.” (And when you do finally decide you can’t take it any more and actually leave, the BPD sufferer says to herself, “See, I was right!” and, confirmation in hand, quickly switches to sweetness and sunshine mode and goes to work convincing you to come back … and the cycle starts all over again.) So I got to experience the type of “discussion” the OP describes on an almost daily basis — sometimes several times per day, and completely lacking in subtlety. Interestingly, one of her favorite things to get mad about was the fact that I wouldn’t get mad about things. “If you really cared about me, you’d get mad! You’re too passive! Wimp!” I’m sure she thought an appropriate response would have been me punching her in the face, something I just wasn’t going to do.

It’s also interesting to note that BPD manifests almost exclusively in women. I suppose it’s possible that the disorder simply causes an extreme form of behavior that many women engage in naturally.

So, what is the manipulation of which I speak re: the OP? What I see is a wife who feels angry or upset about whatever she and her husband argued about, but she is not entirely certain that her own feelings are justified. So she brings it up to her husband, and expresses a desire to talk about his feelings. If she can just get him to admit that he is angry or upset, it will validate her own feelings. In her mind, probably subconsciously, she says, “If he’s angry too, then I’m not wrong to be angry.” If he claims to not be angry, she’s left with two possibilities: either her own feelings are invalid, or he just doesn’t care about her. As neither possibility is desirable, she sees only one option: if he’s not going to be angry on his own, she’ll do whatever she has to do to make him angry, make him validate her own feelings. Then, when he does finally get mad, she convinces herself that he’s mad about the original argument, not about her pestering him.

The solution, of course, is to take responsibility for your own feelings. The validity of your feelings does not depend on somebody else.

Anyway, I’m not a trained psychologist (though I did quite a bit of research into BPD, to try to understand my ex-GF better); the above is just my 2 cents.

103

And on the other side of things, not everybody works that way. I get no benefit out of ‘talking about it’ endlessly. When there is a fight, there is usually yelling and anger and then I go somewhere else and do something else for a while until I am not mad anymore. Then it’s over.

See the thing is, once that happens and I’ve left and gone and gotten over whatever it is, the business is settled. Bringing it back up because someone else doesn’t like how I deal with anger is not exactly going to make me receptive to dealing with them. Add to that the fact that once an argument or a fight is over, I really have no need or desire to talk about how everyone felt during it, and anyone who tries the whole ‘We need to talk’ thing is going to get stonewalled.

You want him to communicate your way, and to deal with his feelings your way, but is that really any more reasonable than him saying it pisses him off that you don’t deal with your feelings his way or communicate his way?

104

[QUOTE=Phase42]
I haven’t seen this mentioned specifically, so I’ll chime in re: manipulation. I dated a woman a few years ago who was mentally ill: bipolar disorder combined with borderline personality disorder (BPD), on top of having suffered severe physical and emotional abuse from her mother. I’m not suggesting the OP’s wife is mentally ill or has suffered past abuse; rather, the nature of my ex-GFs issues simply provided me with a greatly magnified view of the type of behavior the OP describes.

Two prominent hallmarks of BPD are intense, uncontrollable emotions (exacerbated by the bipolar disorder, in the case of my ex - when she was happy she was very very happy, but when she was mad she was a nightmare) and an overwhelming fear of abandonment. The first characteristic leads to a BPD sufferer to the belief that “if I feel emotion X, so should you”. The second leads to preemptive strikes: “Since you’re inevitably going to abandon me at some point, I’d rather you do so on my terms. So I’ll serve up all the provocation you need to walk out, in case you’re just sticking around out of pity for poor me.” (And when you do finally decide you can’t take it any more and actually leave, the BPD sufferer says to herself, “See, I was right!” and, confirmation in hand, quickly switches to sweetness and sunshine mode and goes to work convincing you to come back … and the cycle starts all over again.) So I got to experience the type of “discussion” the OP describes on an almost daily basis — sometimes several times per day, and completely lacking in subtlety. Interestingly, one of her favorite things to get mad about was the fact that I wouldn’t get mad about things. “If you really cared about me, you’d get mad! You’re too passive! Wimp!” I’m sure she thought an appropriate response would have been me punching her in the face, something I just wasn’t going to do.

It’s also interesting to note that BPD manifests almost exclusively in women. I suppose it’s possible that the disorder simply causes an extreme form of behavior that many women engage in naturally.

So, what is the manipulation of which I speak re: the OP? What I see is a wife who feels angry or upset about whatever she and her husband argued about, but she is not entirely certain that her own feelings are justified. So she brings it up to her husband, and expresses a desire to talk about his feelings. If she can just get him to admit that he is angry or upset, it will validate her own feelings. In her mind, probably subconsciously, she says, “If he’s angry too, then I’m not wrong to be angry.” If he claims to not be angry, she’s left with two possibilities: either her own feelings are invalid, or he just doesn’t care about her. As neither possibility is desirable, she sees only one option: if he’s not going to be angry on his own, she’ll do whatever she has to do to make him angry, make him validate her own feelings. Then, when he does finally get mad, she convinces herself that he’s mad about the original argument, not about her pestering him.

The solution, of course, is to take responsibility for your own feelings. The validity of your feelings does not depend on somebody else.

Anyway, I’m not a trained psychologist (though I did quite a bit of research into BPD, to try to understand my ex-GF better); the above is just my 2 cents.
[/QUOTE]

Sir, you are 100% correct.

105

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
I’m not even trying to speak for all women, or even some women, just the one particular woman described in the OP. Granted, we’re only hearing his side, and I presume his transcript of a typical conversation isn’t based on an accurate audio recording, but this pattern is something he described happening repeatedly over the course of his marriage. If his wife really did want a “deep, meaningful dialog”, I would assume she’d have clued in long ago that this wasn’t the way to get one. I further assume she isn’t an idiot, so the pattern must be serving some emotional purpose.

Of course, if this only happens to the OP once every few years, he should probably just learn to cope with it. If it’s weekly, I’d suggest counseling. Daily, divorce.
Not in the least. I just dislike attempts at manipulation and suggest the OP consider the possibility that manipulation, rather a sincere need to talk things out or some ill-defined compulsion women have to irritate men, is a factor in this pattern. I further suggest he not repeatedly recite his half of the script, in which he gets snappish and irritable and further aggravates the situation.

Of course, he should also consider the low value of this advice, insofar as I don’t know him or his wife.
[/QUOTE]

Have you READ Dins’ post about his family and his marriage? I suspect he is being funny and that this is a difference in communication that happens occasionally - which all marriages have. Unless there is something deep going on here he doesn’t post about, this is normal levels of marital dysfunction - they’ve raised several kids that they can brag about, he posts about her activities with a note of pride. And, you know, she’s had to put up with HIM as well - and I suspect he’ll be the first to admit he isn’t always perfect.

Dins has been one of my favoritest posters from way back before we went paid and he took a break.

106

My own wife has ADD; she loses her car keys, her wedding rings, her shoes(!) at least twice a week yet claims she can recall in verbatim conversations that occurred weeks, months, or even years ago. When I am talking to her, I’m never positive she is hearing a word I say; she will often interrupt to resume a conversation we were having at some point in the past. It often takes me several minutes to recall whatever the hell it is that she is talking about and that makes me insensitive to her feelings.

When my darling Marcie says, "We need to talk, what I hear is “Sit down and shut up; I have something to say and you are not going to like it.” The reason I won’t like it is because I usually don’t have any idea as to what she is upset about because whatever it is happened so long ago that I have forgotten it.

I used to say, “Marcie, you’re a trip.” Now I tell her she is a journey, not a trip, and that there is no destination in sight. She usually replies that I am finally beginning to understand her; I wish I had another fifty years to spend with her.

It takes work but its worth it; if she “needs to talk,” the least I can do is listen and respond.

YMMV

107

Thanks to whoever observed that my OP might be somewhat less accurate/complete than a tape transcription. Didn’t want to bore you with the specifics of this - or other - arguments we have. And you know, whenever I try to discuss a specific argument with a 3d party, I realize how long it takes to explain something that always comes out sounding incredibly trivial - and far exceeds the interest of the listener.

And I acknowledge the OP reflects some gender stereotyping, which I tried to explain was set in my experiences of last week - with several guys who said the same thing about their wives, but who demonstrated a different approach to putting minor disputes behind them.

All in all we have a pretty decent marriage. Far from perfect, but my wife and I are both pretty opinionated with high standards for ourselves and others and some significant differences. So there is fertile ground for periodic conflict.

It always amazes me that we have no problems at all concerning the stuff it seems most couples fight over - making or spending money, friends, division of labor, child-rearing. But then every once in a while something really minor will come up - essentially one of us will say something a little off, or even look at the other the wrong way, and that turns into a major blowout.

I guess my preference is to view those periodic events as anomalies, and essentially ignore them and let them pass. While my wife seems to view those momentary unpleasantnesses as indicative of something serious underlying and threatening our entire relationship. Or maybe I think, all things considered, those isolated moments of friction are not too bad in the context of our whole lives, whereas she thinks they are areas in which we could improve and make things even better. And, I guess it should surprise no one that I readily admit I am less introspective than she.

Also weird that the pattern of our occasional fights always seems so similar. You would think 2 ostensibly intelligent people committed to a common endeavor would learn how to avoid repeating the same mistake over the course of a couple of decades. And with both of us approaching 50, I seriously doubt either of us is going to change too drastically. Like I said, we’ve been having the same kind of fights throughout our relationship. It isn’t as tho one or the other of us or our circumstances have changed such that new conflicts arose.

Will be interesting to see how we choose to address things in coming years, as our kids move out of the house. (Youngest is a HS Jr.) I dislike our current community, and desire to move as soon as we no longer need the HS. Will be interesting to see how we approach things then. As much as we bitch about each other, for the past 20 years we’ve both decided things were better together than apart.

dange - you’re sweet. Thanks.

108

[QUOTE=Dinsdale]
I guess my preference is to view those periodic events as anomalies, and essentially ignore them and let them pass. While my wife seems to view those momentary unpleasantnesses as indicative of something serious underlying and threatening our entire relationship.
[/QUOTE]

Sometimes those old catchphrases seem to carry a kernel of truth, y’know? The thing about “women’s intuition”? Whenever I’ve tried to expand a GD thread about consciousness or meaning to include an allowance for “intuitive knowledge” (as opposed to mere empiricism), the most Dopers will grant me is the existence of patterns. To them, that’s not a basis for claiming knowledge; to them, knowledge is a pile of facts, not a web of observations.

But I think what you’re showing is that (some) women rely heavily on intuitive knowledge, knit out of a pattern of small clues.

It makes sense that women are wired that way, since that’s the only way to care for infants. They’re little enigmas who give off very slight clues (of real distress, not the hunger=screaming part). I had little respect for emotional and intuitive knowledge until I had babies, then all of a sudden it made sense.

When my husband of 20 years and I get into a similar donnybrook, it’s not about me trying to “win” (usually - heh); it’s just about trying to understand, about not trusting appearances. And oftentimes I’m right about the root causes of problems (not that it necessarily helps).

Yet he says the same thing, that these problems just arise out of nowhere and blindside him.

You’ve really helped me understand his experience. Thank you.

109

It’s been my experience in my own marriage and in observing others hereabouts that when a husband screws up, he has earned himself a butt-chewing, and the fight is not over until said butt-chewing is delivered. “Let’s talk about it” is a trap intended to maneuver the poor sap into position for the yet-undelivered butt-chewing. She bigawd has some things she wants to say to you, and you are not going to escape by saying, “You’re right, I’m sorry, it’s over.” You have to be told just how wrong you were, have always been and probably will continue to be, and how you absolutely must change from the man you actually are into the model of male perfection she believes she can make you into.

And yet … I still love her more than my own life. I dunno why.

110

[QUOTE=Sunrazor]
And yet … I still love her more than my own life. I dunno why.
[/QUOTE]

“Women! Can’t live with them…pass the beer nuts.”
–Norm (Cheers)

111

I gotta say, I don’t understand half the posters in this thread. I don’t know if it’s a generational thing or what, but I can’t even imagine putting up with the kind of passive-aggression described by some of these folks (especially the “yes, dear, you’re always right, dear” types) for more than a bad month or two without getting up and leaving. That sort of behavior ceases to be about “different communications styles” and more about “I don’t respect you as a human being, I am superior to you.”

Full disclosure: this is coming from a guy who does the occasional “Are you feeling ok? Are you sure? You can tell me if something’s wrong. Are you sure you’re feeling ok?” to his wife–but then again, we’ve both had problems with depression and have agreed to keep an eye on each other. YMMV.

112

Dinsdale, your marriage sounds a very lot like mine. So I know what you’re getting at. However, my husband, when we have these little “asides” and you prefer to think of them as anomalies versus her thinking of them as “threatening the relationship” you might need to understand something. My husband says things to me that he thinks are “no big deal”. To me, they ARE a big deal. Especially when people have high expectations - his “suggestions” are taken by me as criticisms. And lately, they’ve been pretty fast and furious and my self worth is starting to erode.

See what I mean? Something that isn’t a big deal to one person IS a big deal to someone else - there’s a lot more tied up in it than you may realize.

113

[QUOTE=Missy2U]
My husband says things to me that he thinks are “no big deal”. To me, they ARE a big deal
[/QUOTE]

But there has to be a threshold, right?

That is, if someone thinks it’s a big deal if you say something very minor, there is a point on the “minor-ness” scale where you will not and should not validate the other person’s feeling of it being a big deal.

There is a threshold below which it is not normal to make a big deal out of something. I cannot say where that threshold is exactly, but “you’re fat” is above it and “good morning” is below it.

I’m not saying that the things that you think are a big deal are below the threshold, I’m just saying that just because someone thinks something is a big deal does not necessarily make it so.

114

[QUOTE=BaneSidhe]
Because it’s the way we’re wired.
[/QUOTE]

Beg to differ.

115

[QUOTE=Polerius]
But there has to be a threshold, right?
[/QUOTE]

Yes and no. Or, rather, yes and yes.

At some point, the stuff really is too trivial if one of the partners thinks it is, but when it’s stuff that really does bother the other partner, something has to be done.

Personally, I’d say that what “has to be done” is a combination of all sorts of things. The less-bothered partner has to compromise. The more-bothered partner has to compromise. Both have to communicate. And the more-bothered partner should start looking into figuring out precisely what the deal is if s/he is blowing things way out of proportion.

The thing is, even if it’s not the less-bothered partner’s “fault,” it’s still his or her problem. Marriages and other relationships have ended over the most trivial things in the world, when looked at by an outside observer.

116

THANK YOU jsgoddess, that’s exactly what I mean.

117

[QUOTE=Missy2U]
THANK YOU jsgoddess, that’s exactly what I mean.
[/QUOTE]

It’s like with all sorts of other things. What’s important to one partner is going to affect the other partner. There’s no way to avoid that. So we can either say, “Okay, let’s find a solution” or we can say, “Fuck it!” all the time.

Of course, saying we need to find a solution and actually finding a solution are two distinct things, and sometimes I forget that. :smiley:

118

[QUOTE=Dangerosa]
Have you READ Dins’ post about his family and his marriage?
[/quote]
Yes. What’s your point? I made mine (quite clearly, I thought) back in my previous post. If this behaviour drives him nuts, but it’s relatively rare, the OP should ignore it. If it’s more frequent, they should get counseling. If it’s daily, to the point where he dreads having any conversation with her lest it turn into another mutual-antagonism festival, then drastic measures might be in order.

Of course, only he can decide what frequency is tolerable for him. I’m also a bit dismayed by the “just say ‘yes, dear’” advice. It’s clichéd sitcom crap that invites her to gradually become more domineering and him to gradually become more resentful. Fuck that shit. Life’s too short. The indifference-affect (I expect my calling it passive-aggressive, even though describing it as “minimal-effort”, was a misnomer) at least doesn’t get him all stressed out, even if she’s determined.

119

[QUOTE=catsix]
And on the other side of things, not everybody works that way. I get no benefit out of ‘talking about it’ endlessly. When there is a fight, there is usually yelling and anger and then I go somewhere else and do something else for a while until I am not mad anymore. Then it’s over.

See the thing is, once that happens and I’ve left and gone and gotten over whatever it is, the business is settled. Bringing it back up because someone else doesn’t like how I deal with anger is not exactly going to make me receptive to dealing with them. Add to that the fact that once an argument or a fight is over, I really have no need or desire to talk about how everyone felt during it, and anyone who tries the whole ‘We need to talk’ thing is going to get stonewalled.

You want him to communicate your way, and to deal with his feelings your way, but is that really any more reasonable than him saying it pisses him off that you don’t deal with your feelings his way or communicate his way?
[/QUOTE]

Well, I understand your point. Not everybody works that way, and it’s no more reasonable for me to expect him to change his communication style than vice versa.

But my question is, how do you resolve problems in a relationship? I’m not talking about inconsequential spats like if he comes home cranky because he’s had a bad day at work and starts bitching about the cats or something. Sure, go take a walk, when you come back I’ll ask you not to take out your anger on me (one of my biggest pet peeves).

What about larger, more important arguments? Like kids, money, etc. Things that will have a huge impact on your relationship. If you get in a fight about something like that, and walk out to cool off, how do you resolve the issue withuot bringing it up again?

We got in an argument last night, and I thought of this thread while we were arguing, especially because he really didn’t want to get into it at the time (which was stupid, because he brought it up). It was about money I lent him and how he was going to pay me back.

What do you do in situations like that, that aren’t just a matter of tempers flaring over silly things, but really need a resolution?

Sorry for the hijack.

120

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
Personally, I’d say that what “has to be done” is a combination of all sorts of things. The less-bothered partner has to compromise. The more-bothered partner has to compromise. Both have to communicate. And the more-bothered partner should start looking into figuring out precisely what the deal is if s/he is blowing things way out of proportion.
[/QUOTE]

This “compromise”, however, should not degenerate into the less-bothered partner being forced into walking on eggshells all the time, having to stop and carefully consider every word s/he says, lest the wrong turn of phrase upset the more-bothered partner. The more-bothered partner is going to pick up on that, too, and now that’s a problem.

To use my ex’s BPD as an example again, since I think it provides a nice, magnified view: because of the way her brain worked, she was able to instantly come up with the worst possible interpretation of anything I said.

Me: “Well, I need to get going. I have some things I need to get done.”

Her: (suddenly furious) “Oh, you don’t like spending time with me, huh?”

Me: “Wha? We’ve been hanging out for the last six hours!”

Her: “Fine. Don’t let me keep you from your important things. Hmmph!”

And so would end what had been, up till that point, a pleasant afternoon.

In the case of a non-BPD woman, the same basic thing can happen, except that instead of happening immediately, she stews on it for several days and then brings it up again, in disguise, and with more subtlety.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: the vast majority of problems like this could be avoided if both partners entered the relationship thinking “What can I put into this?” instead of “What can I get out of this?” I think too many people ignore the Golden Rule (or whatever your preferred faith/philosphy/beliefe system calls it) when it comes to their marriages. Instead of treating their partners like they’d like to be treated, they resort to a system of rewards and punishments.