Winner of the Idiot Teacher Who Likes to Shag Boys Derby

[Rubystreak]

@Princhester

I should add that personally I think her behaviour should certainly at the least amount to a breach of her employment contract resulting in reprimand and probably the sack. Maybe some sort of criminal sanction. Without objective evidence of harm I don’t know who the victim is, and I have a difficulty with serious charges for victimless crimes.

There was a recent thread on this subject in another forum, so at the risk of belaboring the point… the 14 year old is the victim. Why? Because a 28 year old woman in her career as a teacher who conducts herself as this woman has very likely is mentally unbalanced, or at the very best, just an extremely fucked up person. Why do I say this? Because she threw her career and probably her relationship away to have sex with a 14 year old boy even after she was caught and criminal proceedings were started. I’d say this shows an unnatural attachment beyond just sex between them.

14 year olds are, generally, immature and emotionally not fully developed. Having a sexually and emotionally intimate relationship with an adult who is probably a nutcase AND who abused her authority AND the social contract dictated by her career choice is wrong. Society sanctions this behavior with criminal penalties because beyond getting off, the arrangement is predatory and not healthy for the kid.

[Uzi]

@Tristan

Someone who legally cannot give consent to the sexual encounter.

Geez, I see lots of little kids running around playing dangerous games like football, hockey, etc, who aren’t of legal age to give consent to the activity that they are doing. Apparently, shoving some guys head into the turf or slamming someone into the boards is a more wholesome and proper activity for young boys.

[Princhester]

@Rubystreak

[Large amounts of blather about the woman omitted as being not relevant to whether the child suffered harm (ie is “victim”) omitted]

Society sanctions this behavior with criminal penalties because beyond getting off, the arrangement is predatory and not healthy for the kid.

I am well aware that you and many others assert this. The objective evidence based upon well designed studies in support of this proposition is something you are just about to provide, right?

Those studies may exist. I honestly don’t know. But just asserting your premise is going to get you nowhere.

[XaMcQ]

Here’s a study I found on my first google search.

The Invisible Boy

[Princhester]

I’ve had a quick read of what seems to be the relevant sections of that study. What part of it comprises a study of the harm caused to 14 year old boys who willingly have sex with older women? It seems to me to give only a broad overview which suggests that “sexual abuse” causes harm, without descending to the necessary level of detail to be able to determine whether it is relevant to this particular issue.

[Fish_Nya]

@Princhester

I’ve had a quick read of what seems to be the relevant sections of that study. What part of it comprises a study of the harm caused to 14 year old boys who willingly have sex with older women? It seems to me to give only a broad overview which suggests that “sexual abuse” causes harm, without descending to the necessary level of detail to be able to determine whether it is relevant to this particular issue.

Well, I’ve been going through it because I thought it was interesting, and I found a few points that might relate to what you were talking about.

Chapter 4 “Implications” is really good about this.

It is not uncommon in studies of males abused by females to find claims that they did not see the sexual contact as “abuse” and viewed it as a neutral or positive experience. Anyone reading these studies who accepted these accounts at face value could be led to the erroneous assumption that there was, in reality, no actual negative or harmful impact. When making this assumption, we forget that males are socialized to minimize the impact of being victimized, especially if the abuser was a female, and often hide their fear or discomfort behind “macho posturing.”

It goes on from that, too.
Someone better at explaining and debating could probably do better than me, but I thought that was a relevant point. You talk about how the 14 year old is “willing” but it does have to be taken into account that it very well cold not have been willing and the boy is just remembering it that way. If a girl who was raped said later on that she actually wanted it she would have people jumping down her throat to tell her that she could not, how ‘no is no’, and everything written in every sexual abuse pamphlet ever. But when the boy says he like it he did and that’s the end of that.

The point behind the paper in the link was how under-reported male abuse is, and how the everyone’s views on it, including the media, are biased. I think this would reflect in finding more relevant studies, too.
I don’t think there will be a study of “14 year old boys who willingly have sex with women” because no one is talking about it. Your asking for an exact study that won’t exist how you want it. There are many studies that can relate to this topic, but none that can cover it fully like how I found this page. The PDF linked there has a better list of the results of male sexual abuse, including how “men aren’t victims”.

Really, I don’t know. I don’t really want to get in a huge debate so I’ll just say I think you are wrong. And where I may not be able to even come close to proving that, I’m sure that there are things out there that can.

[Uzi]

@XaMcQ

Here’s a study I found on my first google search.

All quotes are from the study XaMcQ linked to as prepared by Prepared by: Frederick Mathews, Ph.D., C. Psych:

From these simple arithmetic calculations we can see there are close to five million male victims of some form of unwanted sexual touching in Canada

Bolding mine.

For example, how seriously is a school administrator or a youth’s peers likely to take the complaint of a pimply, skinny or “nerdy” type male who is “rated” or sexually teased and taunted by an attractive and popular female? What if the male in the above example was younger or a visible minority student whose first language was not English and the female student was Caucasian? What if the male student was from a strict religious background that viewed any form of "sexual talk or contact as inappropriate and offensive? From this perspective, sexual harassment can also be an issue of basic human dignity. It can also be about violation of another person’s religious beliefs or cultural norms and values

What is sexual harrasment? Whatever you want it to be apparently. It answers my contention that society dictates what someone thinks is abuse, not what the individual thinks as to whether they have actually been abused. The author does go on to talk about power issues, which I think are a more pertinant indicator, but even then he comes up with this:

Applying a double standard when interpreting findings has also affected our perceptions about impact on male victims. It is not uncommon in studies of males abused by females to find claims that they did not see the sexual contact as “abuse” and viewed it as a neutral or positive experience. Anyone reading these studies who accepted these accounts at face value could be led to the erroneous assumption that there was, in reality, no actual negative or harmful impact. When making this assumption, we forget that males are socialized to minimize the impact of being victimized, especially if the abuser was a female, and often hide their fear or discomfort behind “macho posturing.”

Accepting these self-assessments at face value reinforces stereotypes about males that have unintended consequences for males and females. They maintain a harmful double standard prevalent in the child abuse field. They give a message that male victims can “take it.” They suggest females are not sex offenders but instead “gentle seducers.” They encourage some female sex abusers to deny by supporting a view of themselves as teachers/initiators of sex for their male victims. They support the stereotype that boys are “seduced,” while girls are “raped” or sexually assaulted. They can affect the attitudes, beliefs and behaviours of police officers, physicians, hospital staff, child welfare authorities or anyone else who examines victims for impact or conducts investigations of incidents involving female abusers and male victims. They can cause these same persons to look only at physical injuries to male victims and overlook or minimize their emotional responses. They suggest that, but for our socialization of males and females, girls would be giving the same kinds of “positive” or “neutral” responses. This is most definitely a message we do not want to be sending to anyone about children or youth.

We owe it to ourselves and to male victims to ask more probing research questions. For example, if we reframed the experience for these male victims and invited them to consider the differences in power between themselves as children and their adult or teen abusers, to search for feelings of confusion or anxiety before, during or after the sexual contact, and to examine in their adult life the quality or quantity of their intimate and sexual relationships, would they be more likely to respond differently? Would we accept without question from a female victim her assessment that her “sexual contact” with a teen or adult male was not sexual abuse or was just part of her learning about sex? Unlikely. We have to ask ourselves why we simply accept this response from males.

In other words: If they don’t think they are victims it is only because they don’t know enough to know they are victims. We should make them understand that they have indeed been victimized leaving aside as to whether the actual person would have thought or felt this way if society and the therapist hadn’t forced it upon them. So, who is doing the victimizing here?

1st paragraph for some context.

The Consequences of “Male Sexual Licence”

Males, generally, have more permission to be sexual persons in our society. A double standard of morality has been applied to males and female for centuries. The fact that there are no “positive” or flattering terms such as “sowing his wild oats,” “boys will be boys” or “ladies man” for females gives vivid illustration to this point. It is generally assumed that having “licence” to be a sexual person is an advantage. Males are seen to get power from obtaining or taking sex, women from withholding sex.
However, sexual licence has serious consequences for male victims. It increases a boy’s susceptibility to sexual abuse by promoting or encouraging participation in sexual activities.

A boys susceptibility to a serious injury playing sports is increased by promoting or encouraging participation in sports.

It promotes secrecy because boys are afraid to report sexual experiences that go wrong for fear they are responsible and blameworthy.

I was playing with matches when I was a kid and almost burned down the house. I wonder why I tried to hide that fact?..Of course in this instance I was blameworthy. Oddly enough, I knew I was at fault and didn’t blame the guy who gave me the matches.

It affects our perceptions as professional caregivers, encourages victim blaming and supports minimization of the impact on victims of male-on-male sexual assault or female-perpetrated sexual assault. It causes males to expect female sexual contact.

I expect female sexual contact. Dammit, I hope for it!

It promotes risk-taking sexual behaviour and creates expectations for males that they must be the initiators of sex and have sexual knowledge and experience.

Risk taking? Playing football. Initiators of sex? If I want it, I should make it known. Sexual knowledge and experience? The more knowledge and experience makes me a better sexual partner for the one I love. Exactly how would it be expected that I get knowledge without practicing and thus gaining experience? It is not as if there are many courses on how to do sex right.

Is a person a victim if they wanted something to happen, or only if they didn’t want something to happen? I’d suggest that it is almost exclusively the latter. In any case, it is easier for someone to deal with the results if they were a willing participant. Well, at least until the do gooders get involved to muck things up and make them a victim (whether they want it or not. Again, who’s doing the victimization here?).

Caveat: I see power issues as the major problem in abuse (I am not an expert. It is my opinion only!). A teacher shouldn’t be involved with their students in any situation. A child of 8 can’t make responsible decisions, but a 14 year old has matured to the point where they may do so. At least they are in a better position to tell whether they were forced to do something, or wanted to do something. And when they are approached by therapists/police, etc, these people should take a neutral approach until they find out if the person does indeed feel victimized. Otherwise, they are the ones making the person a victim, not the ‘perpetrator’.

[Princhester]

So Fish Nya if a boy says he didn’t mind he did, and if there are no available studies you’re going to jump to a particular conclusion anyway. Fair summary?

[Mosier]

@Tristan

Someone who legally cannot give consent to the sexual encounter.

Would you feel the same way if it were a 28 year old man banging a 15 year old girl?

Absolutely not, for reasons I stated before.

[Fish_Nya]

@Princhester

So Fish Nya if a boy says he didn’t mind he did, and if there are no available studies you’re going to jump to a particular conclusion anyway. Fair summary?

Unless I saw the person who said this, I can’t be sure of the conclusion I would reach. It depends on the person and how they act. I would take what the boy said into consideration, but other factors would have to be considered.

I just think that we cannot assume that just by saying he didn’t mind he really didn’t. He would have to be evaluated by psychologists and other experts, of which I am not. There are probably cases where the boy said he did want it and he did. But there are probably those where he just says that.

I’m really not that invested in either idea. My post seems to bit a bit stronger than I intended- after rereading it seems I think that every boy how would ever have sex with an older women would be a victim or something. I just think that not every kid is just fine and that they have problems later in life.

I looked back on some of your posts and I guess I’m not in total opposition to you- I just would err more to the other side of the line than the other, or something.

Yeah, I know I’m not really explaining myself well, but I did say I’m not too good at debating. And it is way too late. I probably shouldn’t have gotten into it.

[Rubystreak]

@Princhester

I am well aware that you and many others assert this. The objective evidence based upon well designed studies in support of this proposition is something you are just about to provide, right?

Those studies may exist. I honestly don’t know. But just asserting your premise is going to get you nowhere.

You’re the one who wants to change the law and go against social norms in saying that children are NOT victimized by sex with mentally unbalanced, much older women who are in positions of power over them. Can you offer a cite beyond, “What a 14 year old’s dick wants is my cite”? I’m not sure the studies you want exist. I can tell you that the predatory nature of the relationship and the fucked up psyche of the perpetrator are pretty obviously not going to lead to a healthy experience for the kid. You might say that it’s not damaging for a 14 year old boy to have sex with a crazy woman. I say it is. I can rest easy in the fact that, since it’s been legislated, my take on it is fairly widely accepted.

[ShibbOleth]

Here’s a link to a graphic database of all of the teacher/student sexual encounters that have been caught in my area.

Please feel free to go through and let us know which are OK, and which are not. Or are they all okay because the kid “wanted it”? I’d kindly submit that those of you who think this is okay are delusional, socially underdeveloped, or just plain don’t know that the hell you’re on about.

Denise McBryde 38 - Victim (gender not indicated) 15
Tammy Huggins 36 - Males 15 and 16
Derrick Sepp 32 - Male 12
Amy Gayle Lilley 36 - Female 15 (student says “we were in love”)
Lisa Robyn Marinelli 40 - Male 17
Ryan C. Wilborn 22 - Females 15 & 15
Mary Jo Spec 45 - Males 17 & 18 (got them drunk first)
Stephanie Ragusa 28 - Males 14 & 15
Ronnie Lewis 37 - Female 17
Isaac Tillis 29 - Female 16 (She could raise her grade up)
Christina Lin Butler 33 - Male 16 (Caught because she let 6 teenagers take her jeep for a spin and they were driving wildly)
Jaymee Wallace 30 - Female 15 (girl says she was not coerced)
Michael Black 28 - Female 14 (parents found out from daughter’s cellphone)
Debra LaFave 23 - Male 14

Oh, please also weigh in with how many years experience you have as a parent and what age your children currently are. Maybe we can arrange for these wonderful teachers to teach at your kids’ schools.

I should probably also add that I have a nephew that is “special needs”. He’s really not able to understand social relationship and properly distinguish normal behaviours. He is a fairly good looking kid, and in some ways bright. He’s already been molested by some classmates when he was eight, sort of an inappropriate touching in the bathroom incident.

If you think this sort of stuff if just fine, then you’re most likely looking it at it through the distorted lens of what you thought, or remember that you thought at that age. How old are you now? Would you have a relationship with someone who is 12-17 years old? If not, why not? Would you use your power of influence and authority to get in a young girl’s panties? If not, is it just because you’d fear being arrested, or is it because there is something a little creepy and disturbing about disabusing a child of their innocence just for your jollies?

Oh, and on my newspaper today police have arrested Darren Snieszko, 25, for taking a 16 year old girl on a one-on-one field trip to the zoo. Another girl has said he did the same thing with her, but he has not been charged on that yet. No indication that any sexual activity took place.

"Snieszko paid for the girl’s admission with his Pinellas County teacher’s discount card, said St. Petersburg police spokesman Bill Proffitt. The spokesman characterized the outing as a date.

He also sent the 16-year-old girl a variety of romantic messages, using MySpace, cell phone text messages, and e-mail messages, Proffitt said."

[VinylTurnip]

Jeez. What is it about child molestation that sucks all the humor out of the room?

[BMalion]

@Antinor01

If the boys wanted to do it or not is irrelevent. She is a criminal and should be prosecuted in the same manner as a male would be.

Yes, I sentence her to be spanked until her bottom is quite purple.

[BMalion]

@Princhester

I should add that personally I think her behaviour should certainly at the least amount to a breach of her employment contract resulting in reprimand and probably the sack. …

I volunteer to make sure she hits the sack with me, you know, as her punishment.

I’ll be here all week.

Vinyl Turnip, I’m doing my best!

[BlinkingDuck]

@Mosier

Of course. The difference is that most 14 year old boys ultimate fantasy dream is of being molested by their female teachers, where most 14 year old girls would need therapy if they were molested by their male teachers. Are we just supposed to ignore this?

If a 29 year old man would go to jail for 15 years having sex with a 14 year old girl, then a 29 year old woman should receive the same having sex with a 14 year old boy.

It seems strange, but women seem to think the reverse is not that big a deal. Why they think this, I don’t know. Are they any crimes out there that the different sexes receive much different punishments?

At work, a female colleague was getting into some trouble understanding why her behavior was causing a stir. I finally got through to her by using the ‘reverse the genders’ trick. {she was continuing to flirt with a guy that wasn’t interested in her}. She was flabbergasted that her behavior was getting her into trouble…but guys have had to put up with it for many years.

[Algher]

@Uzi

Geez, I see lots of little kids running around playing dangerous games like football, hockey, etc, who aren’t of legal age to give consent to the activity that they are doing. Apparently, shoving some guys head into the turf or slamming someone into the boards is a more wholesome and proper activity for young boys.

If it is organized sports, or takes place at a commercial establishment, then the boys parents or guardians all signed a document consenting on behalf of their minor child.

In some states the parents can give consent for marriage before the minor is of age.

[Tristan]

@Princhester

But why, precisely, is it stupid to say that something shouldn’t be a crime? I’ll give you a hint: saying “because it’s a crime” isn’t an answer that anyone other than a moron would give.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting to change soemthing from a crime to a legal activity. Hell, go for it!

But you work within the system. You want to fuck minors? Get together with like minded folks, form a PAC, and lobby to change the laws. Don’t get indignant about it, saying “We’re in love! We’re not doing anything wrong! He loved it!” when you get caught.

For example, I support legalizing marijuana. I think it’s for the most part, harmless. I also doesn’t smoke Marijuana now, because it’s illegal. I’m certainly not going to go around smoking up, and then get pissed off when I get busted. That’s an insanely dumb way of dealing with the system.

[Chimera]

The thing is, I’m fairly certain that this isn’t just some recent epidemic of Teacher-Student Sex, but that this sort of thing has been going on since the beginning of time.

Back in my day, the people involved were not stupid enough to get their teachers busted for it (assuming a consentual/non-coercion situation, and yes, a 14 year old can consent, if not legally) or if they were caught, the situation was dealt with quietly (not saying that’s a good thing. See also: Catholic Church).

The whole “They’re VICTIMS regardless of whether or not they realize it” thing is…incredible. I long for the day when we get past the Worship of Victimhood.
That being said, coercion is rape, and should be treated as such.

[ShibbOleth]

@Chimera

The whole “They’re VICTIMS regardless of whether or not they realize it” thing is…incredible. I long for the day when we get past the Worship of Victimhood.
That being said, coercion is rape, and should be treated as such.

So, are they rape victims or willing participants? How old are YOUR children?