Yeah, I find an experienced older woman arousing. I do. The next guy might not. Different strokes and all that. You can choose to look at this conversation we are having from the perspective of the older person (as in they should be punished regardless if they harmed the younger person) or you can look at it from the perspective of the younger person (are they harmed by actions they willingly entered into). I am not in anyway condoning the actions of people who use their power over someone to coerce unwilling participants in actions they have no desire to be a part of.
Eh? So why did you bring it up?
What does legality have to do with anything I have been talking about? Being illegal doesn’t make everything wrong nor does being legal make everything right. People in power shouldn’t abuse their positions, okay?
“Where did we go wrong?” I ask my silent son, his eyes on the floor. My wife, devastated on the couch beside me, weeps bitterly. “Didn’t we raise you to be a top?”
Okay, so you just think that sometimes teachers should get away with fucking their students? What exactly is your point? It’s not always wrong but it should always be punished by law anyway? You don’t seem to have a coherent position.
I think the issue here is that some guys honestly feel that they wanted to have sex with teachers as kids and would not have been harmed by it, and it makes them wonder if such relationships are always predatory. You can be as morally outraged as you want, but honesty is a valuable quality in any debate.
Ensign Edison, if your kid is gay, you have a number of issues to deal with. I’ll bet after you’ve dealt with the gayness issue, you might be able to come to a reasoned conclusion about the younger/older sex issue.
Your side of the debate keeps projecting moral outrage onto the other side. It’s not moral outrage. It’s a different perspective. I’m coming at this from the perspective of a teacher. I’m telling you, in order to cross that boundary, there would have to be something seriously wrong with my judgment, at best. At worst, psychopathology. So my feeling is, while a teenage boy might be thinking of the sex and thinking it wouldn’t harm him, I’m saying, any teacher who would do that is a questionable character. She might harm you, not the sex.
That said, I’m sure it happens and for some people is fine, nothing negative comes of it. It seems that the power inequity, combined with the age and maturity difference, the illegality, and the social taboo, would most often cause it to be a bad situation. Not worth it for most adults, even if they do feel an attraction.
I’m friends with a guy who slept with the mother of a friend of his. He would have been 17, 18, she would have been minimally 38, but I’m pretty sure she was well over 40.
When we were talking about it, he thought nothing of it, other than he got some sex with an older knowing woman. I think his response was “how else are boys supposed to learn about sex?”
When we talked further, and I mentioned the sheer craziness of the woman to think that fucking a 17 year old friend of your son’s is a “good idea” he started to get uncomfortable and defensive.
Now that he’s of the age she was, part of him recognizes the inappropriateness of the situation, but part of him still revels in the 'hot MILF" thing.
I’m a 38 female right now, and I’m telling you, going after a high schooler is a sure indicator of mental problems. Has mental health ever been a prerequisite for sex? No, obviously-we would have probably died out as a species if it were.
As to my own experience, the largest age discrepancy was when I was 16 I dated/screwed a 26 year old, and when I was 18, I dated/screwed a 28 year old. I was a more than eager participant in the relationships, however, I do believe that they were minorly predatory. Neither of them were in a position of power or responsibility over me.
Once I was 26, or 28 and looked at who I was, where I was in life, I realized that there is something messed up with someone that age dating 16-18 year olds, no matter if the kid wants it or not.
When my husband and I talk about our kids, and them having sex, (the oldest who is 13,) my personal opinion is I don’t really care if they’re going at it at 16 with someone whose right in their age range, but I would certainly be very upset if it was someone significantly older.
To me it indicates immaturity, inability to function at an appropriate level, mental issues, power issues, predation or exploitation on the part of the older person-male or female.
It does surprise me in these threads that there is never any males who say ‘hey this happened to me and I think it was a good/bad experience."’
You’re exaggerating. Plus I’m looking for evidence that the social norms have any objective validity. There are any number of social norms that don’t.
You seem completely unable to talk about this subject without throwing the word “predatory” around like confetti, and attacking the mental health of the woman. You are assuming your premise, and hoping that if you do it vociferously enough, you’ll create a perception of reality.
Your “argument” seems to run: the boy is a victim because he had sex with a total pyscho and predator on a level that would make Hannibal Lector blush. Why does that make him a victim? Because she’s a total psycho and predator. Why is she a total psycho and predator? Because she had sex with a 14 year old boy, making him a victim. Why is he a victim? Because he had sex with a total psycho and predator. Why is she a total psycho… etc
Listen to this crap. It’s exactly this sort of dumbshit nonsense that makes me suspicious of my own personal feeling that it is deeply wrong for a teacher to sleep with a 14 year old pupil.
You are suggesting that people should be charged with a serious crime because it can’t be proved with “absolute certainty” that their victim wasn’t harmed, even if the victim says they weren’t.
Can you prove with absolute certainty that you didn’t rape every guy you ever fucked? Bear in mind that given what a fucking dumbass you are, I’m going to assume that any guy that says he slept with you voluntarily is almost certainly lying, and just doesn’t have the sense to realise that he didn’t consent.
What it comes down to is there is nothing that is going to sway you from your irrational assertion. You have reached a faith conclusion and any testimony that doesn’t support your faith is the result of someone’s self delusion or lack of sense.
Ask yourself this: what would it take to convince you that a 14 year old boy who had willing sex with an older woman wasn’t harmed? If you can’t answer that question, you’re witnessing not arguing.
Yeah, I have to think you haven’t been following along, because I’ve explained my point of view sufficiently and I don’t think anyone wants me to do it yet again.
You are distorting my position deliberately and I have to wonder why. No one in this thread said they weren’t harmed. They are imagining a scenario and saying it wouldn’t harm them. Sure, in their imagination, it’s great. That’s hardly proof of jackshit.
OK, then go fuck yourself. You obviously have no interest in having a discussion. I realize this is the Pit, but the conversation managed to be civil enough until this.
Being a teacher for 8 years? Knowing a shitload of teachers? And probably a hell of a lot more teenagers than you currently know? Understanding the gravity of the situation and what it would take for me or my colleagues to cross that line? In short, I have much more data than you have for why a teacher who would have sex with a student is very likely not someone who can be trusted with an intimate relationship with the kid. Would it be preferable to you if I, as a teacher, thought it was perfectly fine for students and teachers to fuck if the kid wanted to do it? I mean, really, what the fuck do you want me to say, considering my position? I think it’s a really fucked up, horrible idea, and the penalties in place for it are pretty sound. You have done an utterly shitty job of convincing me to change my mind. Maybe if you weren’t such an asshole, you would do better, but I doubt it, considering your lack of rhetorical skill.
I don’t think it’s irrational at all. And I’ve made allowances for other points of view, unlikely though they may be IMO. You’re just flinging shit around because you have some wild hair across your ass. So maybe we can’t discuss this and you should just shout, distort, call names, and in general be a dick to someone who’s interested in being abused by a douchebag. Sound good?
Perfectly coherent actually. I don’t think sex should be illegal. Rape should be. It is more likely that someone who holds a position of power is using that to influence the decision of the person under their authority. It is more likely to be rape in that instance. But, just because someone had sex with someone else shouldn’t automatically get them a jail sentence.
Why is this crazy? The fact that he was 17? Or the fact that it was her son’s friend? The age difference?
Would you object if they went to an amusement park and rode rollercoasters together to have fun? Of course not. Maybe if you removed the ‘special magical relationship related’ qualities from sex you’d realize that sex and relationships can be two different things. The reason you think this way is because society has programmed you to think this way. What other reason could their be if you think that your friend was harmed even though he says he wasn’t? Yeah, he is defensive because you make him that way. You are forcing him into being a victim even though he doesn’t perceive himself that way. And because he has acted outside of societal norms he is even more susceptible to feeling guilty and become defensive quicker. Frankly, what you do to him vs. what the older woman did to him is worse. You are forcing him to feel guilty about actions that harmed absolutely no one. Well, no one other than you it seems and only because you can’t get over the ‘squick’ factor of two people of widely differening ages having sex with each other. “OMG! She’s like totally old! Eeeewwww!”
You think you have, but you haven’t come close. You just blather about victims and predators. You never say clearly what your evidence is that the boy suffers harm.
This is what you posted earlier as an “explanation” of why the child suffers harm.
The first sentence you assert the kid is a victim. The second sentence you assert that the teach is unbalanced. Fine, not arguing with that. The third is a question. The fourth is an explanation of why the teach is unbalanced. Again. Fine. The fifth is an assertion that a relationship is “unnatural” whatever the fuck that means. The sixth says the kid is immature etc. Fine. The third is an assertion that the relationship is “wrong” ie a moral judgement. The seventh points out that the behaviour is criminal (duh) and asserts predatoriness (whatever the fuck that means) and “not healthy”. Gotcha.
You think you’re explaining why the kid is being harmed, but actually you are just making facile comments about the adult, and baldly asserting that the kid is doing something “unhealthy” or “unnatural” or “wrong” but never saying why or offering any evidence.
Set it out in one, simple sentence: “the evidence shows that the boy will be harmed in that…”
We don’t have a lot to go on. We’ve got several people saying they don’t imagine it would have harmed them knowing how they felt when they were 14. And we have you saying it would be harmful and that even if the victims said it wasn’t, that would just be because they are deluded or lack sense.
The former position is weak testimony. The latter is patronising, counter-factual, close minded bullshit, unless you can come up with actual evidence. Something you have admitted probably doesn’t exist.
When one starts creating a scenario where absence of “absolute certainty” of lack of harm becomes evidence of harm, things get nasty real fast. You live by it, you die by it.
I asked you before: what would it take to convince you that a 14 year old boy who had willing sex with an older woman wasn’t harmed?
You carefully didn’t answer. If you can’t answer that question, your position is unfalsifiable, and it is faith not science.
Sorry to double post, but let me try to help you a little with this exercise (speaking of lack of rhetorical ability). Saying that he’s harmed because he’s a victim, or that he’s a victim because what happened was wrong, unnatural or unhealthy (without saying why), is just engaging in tautology. Saying he’s been harmed because he interacted with a crazy person makes no sense, without saying why or how, since interacting with a crazy person doesn’t have to result in harm. Saying he’s harmed because “I’m an experienced teacher, so there” is the fallacy of argument from authority.
See if you can’t explain the substance of your assertion.
What “boy”? A theoretical boy? An actual boy? Any given boy? What are you asking me to prove, exactly?
Wrong. Read it again and stop mischaracterizing my argument.
You really just cannot read. I never said the KID was doing something unhealthy, unnatural, or wrong. The adult, who is attached to a child in a way that is not appropriate, healthy, or normal, is doing something wrong. The OP posted about a woman who was charged with a crime in having sex with a 14 year old boy, then subsequently drove to his house in the middle of the night and was caught again… now, please tell me, is that not fucked up? Is that a woman you’d want having sex with your 14 year old? Or dealing intimately with other kids? She could not stay away from him even after she was in trouble for doing it. Women who act like that in relationships with other adults are considered unbalanced. This seems to be a pattern with women who do this (Mary Kay Letorneau is a perfect example).
The evidence shows that the boy will likely be harmed in that the woman involved is mentally unbalanced and the boy is not old enough or mature enough to handle her in an intimate relationship. It’s not like I haven’t said this a dozen times in this thread already, but as you have problems reading what I say instead of what you want to read, I’ll write it one more time before I stop reading what you write altogether.
Most teenage boys lack sense. I never said they were deluded. I said they can’t know what they would be dealing with in the person of the transgressing teacher, so they cannot KNOW how it would have gone. That seems like sound reasoning to me. Do you think it’s solid rhetoric to repeatedly distort what I say? Do you think it’s helping you “win” your argument? It’s not. You don’t even actually disagree with me. You just, as I said, have a hair across your ass.
OK, students should be able to fuck their teachers because a bunch of guys who’ve never done it think it would be fine. Is that what you want me to say? Wow. Incredible.
I’d need to see that it was consensual, first of all, and not just macho covering up. Then I’d need to see him grow up OK and tell me 10 years later that he still thinks it didn’t harm him.
Hey, thanks for completely mischaracterizing what I wrote. Idiot.
I would think it was odd if a 40 some year old woman started hanging around a 17 year old boy to go on rollercoasters, too. Seriously. What, you can’t find a peer to do stuff with? And that doesn’t necessarily mean age either, when I say peer.
And no, honey, I can certainly make the differentiation between fucking and relationships. They were just fucking, no one has any illusions about that. And inherently there is nothing wrong with fucking. But there is something wrong about fucking a kid your son’s age, who is his friend. Just like fucking sisters is wrong, or mother/daughter combos. Now I know I’ve probably just hit a couple of your sweet spots with those particular fantasies, but that’s what they are, fantasies. Real life tends to be a little more messy.
Not too many people can have these kinds of relationships and have it end up being a positive moment in their life. Somehow, I have a very strong suspicion that their harmless little fling would have hurt her son quite a bit, that’s probably why they weren’t going to prom together, you know? Damn this oppressive society! Down with the Man! or the Boy!
(Disclaimer-this convo with my friend took less than 3 minutes*, on only one occasion. There was no forcing him to feel guilt. I don’t think he was harmed, or probably even remembers the convo. *Snerk- 3 minutes, probably as long as the sex was at 17.)
I don’t have a big problem with age difference, if they were 30 and 53, God bless 'em. 26 and 49? 50 and 73? Who the fuck cares. But if you’re talking 40 and 17? Wrong, exploitive, and at least vaguely predatory.
I’m not so sure this response would be as ‘live and let live’ if it was a 40 year old man and a 17 year old girl.
And for me trying to make him feel like a victim, how about men/boys trying to make it not only ok, but something to aspire to, whether or not he wants it? Don’t tell me that there isn’t a reverse effect with braggadoccio (sp). How can you possibly complain or be conflicted about being seduced? Jimmy’s mom is Hawt! Plus you got laid! High 5 man!
If Jimmy’s mom was 350#, smelled of bratwurst and got hit with the ugly stick, would it still be a wonderful exchange of body fluids? Nah, then she’d be creepy.
Anyways, back to my main point which was this. Anyone who is 40 some years old, and fucking their teenage son’s friends, has mental issues. Period.
Will the 17 year old suffer long term harm? Who knows? My buddy wasn’t bragging about nailing her, although there definitely was a MILF undercurrent, but he didn’t break down and cry, either. I’m sure like most experiences in life, there is no black and white result. Just like my experiences, there was good and bad.
But that still doesn’t make what the adult did right.
ETA-there has to be at least one guy on the 'dope who has had a similar experience. How come he/they aren’t lining up to brag about how great it was? How it was a positive, wonderful experience that greatly enhanced their life? How come the only ones saying it is fantastic are the ones who haven’t done it?
Yeah, and if you were remotely able to characterize my argument with any accuracy, this patronizing, shitty little lesson in rhetoric would hold some water. As you are apparently a fan of the ad hominem attack, and are prone to hyperbole and deliberate distortion, I think you are hardly in a position to lecture me about how to make a cogent argument. You haven’t even made clear what your problem is, aside from whatever fictional role you have assigned to me in this thread. Any data I do bring to the table you dismiss, any reasonable arguments I make you edit them in your restatement so that they are as lame as you want them to be.
You are not interested in a conversation. You are interested in abusing me and browbeating me, to what end I do not know. So, why not just go fuck yourself? I have explained my view adequately but you do not wish to interact with it, only with your straw man. I never knew what a complete waste of bandwidth you were until now. Thank you for fighting my ignorance.
How young do you think that “someone else” must be before they are unable to meaningfully consent? Do you support any kind of age of consent laws at all?
So are we talking about a hypothetical situation in which hot MILF jumps the bones of average joe teenager, or this particular situation being discussed here in this Pit thread?
Is it possible that some random adult woman could have sex with a boy many years her junior and nothing horrible happen? Of course. But as a teacher (okay, on the graduate school level, but I did teach elementary and middle school years ago), this is about the worse breach of professional conduct I can imagine. Parents, students, and the community trust educators to exercise good judgment and to do the right thing. What’s funny is that if a teacher came out and decided to, for instance, distribute NARAL literature in their classroom, or read scriptures from the Bible before the end of class, I don’t doubt that most people - male and female - would think that those actions are serious and that the teacher may well have demonstrated his or her inability to function appropriately in that role.
Of course there would be kids, parents, community members, etc. that would agree with the teacher. But because the professional role supersedes one’s personal beliefs, it’s just wrong.
Personally, I find it icky that someone would wait until graduation day, and then start banging an ex-student. I would suspect that the teacher was already “on the case” before that time. But it’s in-bounds, and while as a former administrator I wouldn’t want that person on my staff, I don’t think I could do much to get rid of him or her.
But this? A teacher having sex with special ed kids? It’s fucked up beyond the pale.
And to all of the hypotheticals of teachers who were hot as hell banging 18 year old guys with no strings or consequences whatsoever, I certainly don’t know anyone here in real life, and you might be the exception to the rule. I think there has to be some thought about how this harmless tryst would look like in real life.
To use another analogy: I’ll bet that there are those among us who can drive reasonably well over the speed limit, or over the legal limit for alcohol. But there are probably a lot more people who don’t have that ability. I don’t think most people would argue that it would be wise to speed or drive under the influence, even if you think you’re one of the people who would be just as good either way.
There’s also the assumption that both parties will behave rationally. What if teach wants more from the relationship? That could certainly gum up the works for the youngster. And given the fact that this teacher violated rules and policies that could cost her her job, I would think that this is a person with extremely skewed judgment who may well do more things demonstrating said skewed judgment.
A theoretical 14 year old boy who willingly has sex with a female teacher. That’s what we’ve been discussing, right?
Well you tell me what you mean. You say the woman threw away heaps for the relationship, and you then say the relationship must be unnatural. Even granting that, how does this show that the boy was harmed?
That dull thudding sound is my head hitting the desk. Forget the fucking teacher for three seconds. I know she did wrong. I’ve said so several times. What. Evidence. Do. You. Have. That. The. Boy. Suffered. Harm. For. Fuck’s. Sake.
Please don’t say again that he suffered harm because the teacher is an asshole. Please.
Holy shit that was almost an explanation. The boy is not old enough or mature enough to “handle her in an intimate relationship”. OK. We have something to work with. What harm will this cause, and what is your evidence?
Know how what would have gone? If they have had sex with their teacher, presumably they do know how it went. You’ve lost me here.
Sorry, you seem to be operating under the delusion that you have come up with some evidence that it would be harmful. I’ll go over it again because you don’t seem to get it. A bunch of guys who’ve never done it think it would be fine. You don’t have any evidence they are wrong. The bunch of guys have a weak case. You have none. This is where your problems start.
Good answer. Two problems. Firstly we’ve already established that it was consensual. That is what we’ve been discussing for several pages now, I think. You however seem to think that even if the kid says it was consensual, that would be because the boy is just saying so as macho covering up. So while you say that consensual might make it OK, ISTM in reality there is never going to be such evidence because you have decided not to believe it, before the fact.
So we are back to your faith based position.
Second point. These sorts of incident seem to happen pretty regularly. The base of kids who are now at the 10 years later point must already exist. What do they actually say? You assert there is harm, what do the studies say? Or aren’t you interested in finding out?
From the outset I have made this crystal clear. I don’t think what the teacher did was right, but I have a difficulty with serious charges in basically victimless crimes. And I have been asking for several pages now for a well designed study of whether a 14 year old boy who willingly has sex with a teacher is likely to have been harmed.
What data? You’ve asserted various things. I don’t recall you bringing an iota of data to the table. I’m sorry if I’ve missed something. Can you point it out to me?
If I’m being harsh, it’s because people who have faith based positions that they purport to evidence by asserting their premise over and over irritate me.
No, moron. This is a thread about a specific teacher, as referenced in the OP. It has expanded to refer to other people, but I revert to the OP, since it’s an actual situation and not theoretical, and thus subject to as much manipulation as you will permit yourself.
The theoretical boy is theoretically harmed because the theoretical teacher is theoreticallty mentally unbalanced and overly attached to him, even in the face of criminal penalty, career loss, and social ostracism.
Look up what Vili Pulau is up to and get back to me.
I will say again that you’re an asshole, since again, you are making shit up that I’ve said.
Hey, fuckface, I only said that exact things half a dozen times in three pages. Let’s not act like you cunningly got it out of me, Nancy Drew.
The examples in this thread and the other indicate that there was not just sex but a relationship that involved multiple encounters and much interpersonal interaction outside of the teacher/student relationship. It’s that interaction that I believe would be harmful to the student. Inappropriately intimate exposure to a nutcase.
But I do. You choose to ignore it. I’m not your dancing monkey, so I’m not writing my whole argument out for you again on page 3 of this fucking thread.
No, we haven’t. We have been discussing a wide range of topics from who can give consent to why would a boy mischaracterize his experience as better than it was to the possibility that a boy could have deeply ambivalent feelings to… well, yeah. You haven’t been reading along.
I never said consensual would make it OK. See, you really can’t read. Even doctors cannot have consensual sex with their adult patients without severe censure. Why should teachers be any different? Why are such rules in place that forbid authority figures from these behaviors? Are you contending that those rules should be rescinded?
Cite?
Why don’t you look them up and then post your results so that you can prove me wrong? Or aren’t you interested in finding out?