And the OP referenced a 14 year old boy who willingly had sex with a female teacher. It’s moronic to reference a theoretical boy with those characteristics?
If you think “Vila Pulua” is relevant, explain why. I am not familiar, and I’m not going to make up your arguments for you.
What is your evidence that he will be harmed by this attachment?
Above you said that the boy is not old enough or mature enough to “handle her in an intimate relationship”. I then asked you what harm will this cause, and what is your evidence? You carefully didn’t reply.
You seem to be avoiding the hard questions.
You seem to be avoiding the thrust of what I’m saying by nitpicking. The relationship in the OP was consentual.
You said that consent was the first of two things required that might convince you that a 14 year old boy who had willing sex with an older woman wasn’t harmed. Do you or do you not accept that this requirement effectively cannot ever be met because you would always think the boy’s own statements were “just macho covering up”
Fark.com seems to list several a week. Are you actually contending that these incidents are too rare to study?
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You said you thought such a study didn’t exist. I haven’t found one. I came to this thread asking if such a thing existed. You are the one who asserts harm very strongly, the onus is on you to find some evidence to support your position. Otherwise, your position is just faith
Here are some articles that may be of interest in support of my argument that teachers who screw students have mental problems and harm their students:
Debra Lafave talks about her abusive personal history and her relationship with the 14 year old boy that got her arrested. She filed an insanity plea.
Vili Fualaau, who married his abuser, sued for damaged because the school district failed to protect him from her. He admits to having mixed feeling and of feeling tortured. However, he still loves her. No damage there. He was also arrested for drunk driving shortly after they wed.
Margaret De Barraicua had sex with her 16 year old special ed student while her 2 year old was in the car. I’m sure the 16 year old will feel great about that when he grows up and thinks about it.
The reason why it’s difficult for me to tell you how the boys felt about what happened, or how they feel 10 years later is… well, they were minors when it happened. Usually, their names are not released. How can I find evidence of their feelings 10 years after the fact? Or know how they felt about it at the time, since we rarely even get to know who they are?
The obsessive component present in most of the cited relationships (Pamela Rogers Turner is another good example, besides my cites and the OP), where the woman continues to revisit the relationship even after she is busted for it, indicates a mental unbalance. Debra Lafave even pled insanity. Have you, Princester, ever been in a relationship with a woman who was obsessed with you and who threw her life away to pursue you even after it was clear that she needed to leave you alone? Did you find it trying to deal with? Did it cause you any mental anguish? Now imagine you’re 12 or 14. Would you concede that harm could be done in that situation?
I’m not disagreeing with any age being set as a arbitrary limit to consent. But, if you make it 16 years and someone has sex with a person who is 1 day short of that age, should they go to jail for 10 years? There should be a grey area in there somewhere where it would be determined if the minor was a willing participant or was unduly influenced by a person in a position of power over them. It is about power not age, afaic. Nor am I particularily interested in the older person. I care whether the kid was ever actually hurt.
It is the same pressure that makes you say that a 40 and a 17 year old is exploitive is the same thing that would make him react such that he’d have to suck it up or brag about it. Societal pressures.
Btw, I am not being hypocritical. I could care less if it was a 40 man, woman, or beast.
Yeah, well what is the point of this. Such a woman isn’t my cup of tea, but it is likely that someone somewhere is fucking her otherwise how did she have kids? This pretty much confirms that the only reason you have a problem with and older and younger person is the squick factor, not any valid rational reason.
When I was 15 I had a neighbour who was a family friend and, incidentaly, 25 years old. She was an incredible flirt. I think she enjoyed making me uncomfortable. We never did have intercourse, but we did have a single heavy petting session involving mutual masturbation and oral sex (for me. I wouldn’t have know what to do to get her off at that point). I think all the flirting got to her and she lost control of the situation. Yeah, I am bitter and disappointed and regret every moment of it. I feel scarred and frustrated and a whole host of other things. Why? Because I didn’t get to fuck her <sob!>. I had an unbelievable crush on her.
In any case, should my friend have been sent to jail for doing these mean things to me? What a stupid thing to even contemplate. These are my experiences. I suffer no scars from them, nor do I think I was abused even though she did at times act as a baby sitter for my younger sister. I look back at the time fondly. No one was hurt by what happened!
The thing is that these are just the people who have been caught. Usually there are far more ones who haven’t been as with any crime. Are we to say that all the ones not reported are as detrimental to the people involved as these cases might have been? Or can we make an assumption that at least a few don’t cause any problems other than what would occur in any ‘normal’ relationship?
That article is about seven pages long. Which bit talks about how the kid was harmed?
When someone stands to make a large amount of money by saying they were harmed, call me sceptical, but well designed study it ain’t. Also, from the linked article the only harm mentioned seems to be as a result of the very ostracism and social dislocation that these sorts of serious charges seem to create.
The article doesn’t seem to say anything about harm. You (again) simply assert what you are sure will occur. You have so much blind faith in your position that you just seem to read into an article what just plain isn’t there.
Plenty of studies have been done about children who’ve been abused. There doesn’t seem to me to be any reason why such a study couldn’t be done.
The examples you have given where there have been revisits seem to have been entirely consentual. The woman has been busted. All the kid would have to do is say “that strange woman is trying to contact me again, Mum” and the woman gets into trouble. Yet instead the boy bonks her again, on the quiet. It sounds highly consentual, to me. Oh wait, don’t tell me: the boy is somehow mind controlled into going along with it, even though he is being harmed. Gimme a break. Testorone fuelled schoolboy sees a chance to get his rocks off again with hot older woman more like it.
Um, no that wasn’t the point I was making at all. I was making the point that it is still abusive whether the adult was hot or not, but it is only recognized for predation if she’s an ugly skank. You can’t seem to get over the arrested development fantasies of ‘hot for teacher’
Yeah, resembles my stories, except I got laid.
I was looking for examples of the whole teacher/14 year old student variety. Even though it seems to be prevalent in the press, there is still no one coming forth on the 'dope.
What, like Debra Lefave? Do a search on her. Ugly she is not. And if you google, you will find that her name and the word “predator” are to be found in close proximity all over the web.
So if the victim himself expresses ambivalence, and shows signs of psychological distress, even tries to sue for lack of protection from other adults, that doesn’t count to you. It’s not a well-designed study, but it’s more proof than you’ve offered.
My position is that the women in question are not psychologically well. I feel I have offered evidence to prove that.
What do you think has been proven by a lack of study? Therefore, no harm is done? Not a sound, scientific conclusion.
No, most of these women are CAUGHT when revisitng, not “bonking,” as you so charmingly put it. If the boy was doing it on the quiet, they would not be caught. So again, you exhibit your lack of full understanding of the situation. Also, the word is spelled “consensual.”
:rolleyes: You like your straw men a lot, don’t you? They enable you to talk to yourself.
We can go back to my hard question, which you carefully chose not to answer:
Have you, Princester, ever been in a relationship (or witnesses someone else in a relationship) with a woman who was obsessed with you and who threw her life away to pursue you even after it was clear that she needed to leave you alone? Wherein she was mentally ill and part of her illness was manifested by her obsession with you? Did you find it trying to deal with? Did it cause you any mental anguish? Now imagine you’re 12 or 14. Would you concede that harm could be done in that situation?
You have GOT to be fucking kidding with this. If he wanted it to stop, why did he petition the court to lift the “no-contact” order two days after her final release from prison? And then marry her?
As for “his” lawsuit, it’s pretty obviously “his parents’” lawsuit, trying to recoup the cost of raising the kids while the mother was serving a six year prison sentence.
I say again, I suspect having the mother of your children sent to prison for six years would be more harmful than having sex with a teacher at the age of 14.
Here’s one for you: Is it possible for a teacher to have a relationship with a student and NOT be “obsessed with you and who threw her life away to pursue you even after it was clear that she needed to leave you alone? Wherein she was mentally ill and part of her illness was manifested by her obsession with you?”
Because you seem to be arguing that it is not possible; all those attributes automatically and accurately attach to any inappropriate relationship.
We never hear about those, so I’m not qualified to say. It seems that, when these affairs come to light, it’s due to psychopathology. Maybe there’s a ton of them happening secretly that never come out. That’s sort of unknowable, though, so how can I speculate on that? Obviously it’s possible. But when people say there’s “no way” they’d be harmed, they seem to be ignoring a large data pool that suggests that psychopathology comes into play in a good portion of these situations.
Fair enough. But it seems to me that your opponents are on just as solid footing as you in this debate. While they appeal to the “unknowable”, until this quoted post you didn’t even acknowledge the possible existence of it. To the contrary, you explicitly stated multiple times that in every case, the teacher was a psycho and the student would therefore be guaranteed of harm.
In the end, since we don’t have enough evidence, all we can do is share our opinions and agree to disagree. As far as what would or would not harm a 14 year old boy, I tend to side with the opinions of people who have actually been 14 year old boys.
And on that note, I would have signed up for the hot teacher sex in a heartbeat. It’s not like I didn’t have my share of unhealthy relationships as a teen anyway, regardless of how societally acceptable they were.
ETA: In retrospect, I’m not sure I’d assign a qualitative difference between a psycho adult and a teen girl anyway. There is something awe-inspiring about the amount of neurosis and self-esteem issues present in the average teen girl. In the context of the emotional health of the teen boy dealing with them, it’s close to a wash. IMO, of course.
That’s because I can’t imagine a scenario where I or one of my colleagues could do it barring madness. I say that from knowing what teenage boys are like and knowing the consequences of it. Maybe that’s just a lack of imagination on my part. I don’t think so, though, since all the cases that I’ve heard about and which have been in the media have borne out my opinion.
What does it mean, to side with the opinions of the 14 year old boy? If no one is harmed, and it’s perfectly healthy and fine, do you think it should be legal and allowed? If not, can you articulate why? Do you think all the people who are horrified by it and think it’s wrong are just uptight idiots, as has been asserted by others in this thread?
I think this thread is full of men who fantasized about their teachers and are now defending it to the hilt. Most people think that the student/teacher relationship should be sacrosanct, like the parent/child relationship. Are we all wrong? Just brainwashed? What do you think?
Teenagers who are having relationships with other teens have similar levels of experience, so they don’t have the repertoire of head games that a grown woman (who is possibly a nut) would have. Obviously this isn’t universal, but teenage relationships that are screwed up are screwed up on an adolescent level, while relationships between adults seem to ratchet things up in complexity and magnitude. That’s my perspective on it.
I’m not talking about head games. I’m talking about eating disorders, cutting, and suicide attempts. Dating a teen girl is like entering a mental disorder lottery. Us guys weren’t much better, but in all seriousness there were more eating disorders than you could shake a stick at back in my late-80s suburban highschool.
It’s been my experience that adult women are much healthier emotionally. But when you say that a mentally unstable adult woman would be so bad for a teen boy, I think back to my teen years and I have to say, I thought teen dating was all about dealing with females who are mentally unbalanced in the first place.
I feel a Chasing Amy joke coming on…something about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, a mentally and emotionally healthy teen girl, and a psycho woman.
ETA: The meaning of “to side with a 14 year old boy” is…wait, first, I never said that. That was quite a disingenuous attempt to twist my words. Shame on you. I said I would side with somebody who has actually been a 14 year old boy. What I meant was that I think men have a better insight into the teen male psyche than women do.
Oh please. Shame on me. :rolleyes: As if far more blatant word twistings and disingenuous argumentation, not to mention straw men and ad hominem attacks, have happened in this thread with nary a “shame on you” from you. Don’t get your panties in a twist, considering that what you are doing IS siding with the 14 year old boy who is speaking through you and through the other men in this thread. Denying THAT is disingenuous, so no, sir-- shame on YOU. :dubious:
I think I have better insight into the teacher psyche than you do, then, by that token, so shouldn’t that be just as valid a trump card as “I was a 14 year old boy, so I can say with authority that it would be OK”? “I am a teacher, and I can say with authority it would NOT be OK.” Seems that’s just a valid a statement to make as yours, if not moreso because I’m speaking from my current position in life and you are creating a fantasy scenario involving another person whose behavior you could not predict, from a perspective of decades removed? When I spoke from my experience, I was insulted and attacked. What gives you greater right to do so?
ETA: Your contention is that so many teenaged girls are crazy that they are not so great for teenaged boys to have relationships with (I’m paraphrasing here, lest you admonish me again). I can then safely make the sweeping generalization that teenaged boys have poor judgement and therefore are not so great for grown women to get involved with. See how these things cut both ways?
No, you interpreted it correctly. What you are apparently no smart enough to grasp is that nobody in this entire thread gives a fuck about the teacher; it’s all about the teen boy. If you really think it cuts both ways because the teacher might be harmed, you are staggeringly stupid.
Wow, more ad hominem attacks. Good for you! Right after you waggled your finger at me for being disingenous, you so blatantly misinterpret what I said while insulting MY intelligence. Are you frustrated by being asked some hard questions about why you hold your position, so you, like others in this thread, have to resort to changing the topic to me, personally, instead? Bravo! Excellent rhetoric.
You said I was being shamefully disingenuous when I said you were siding with the 14 year old boy, then admit that my interpretation is correct a post later. Then go on to spew some shit about your ideas of what this thread is about… I refer you to the title of the thread, which is “Winner of the Idiot Teacher Who Likes To Shag Boys Derby.” Wherever did I get the idea that this was a thread about teachers? And you call me a moron.
If you think I was talking about the teacher being harmed when I said it was a bad idea for a grown woman to fuck a teenage boy, you are being disingenous and twisting my words. Shame on you! My point, belabord and fucking obvious as it is, is that it’s just plain a bad idea for teenaged boys to fuck their teachers. No matter how much your adolescent jack-off fantasies suggest it would be a total lark, it’s forbidden for many excellent reasons, all of which have been more than adequately covered. Just because your inner teenager says it would be fine does not make it fine. If you don’t realize this, you are the one who is staggering stupid.
What else is left to be said on this topic? I’m sure you could fit in some more personal attacks on me, but that just proves that you still have plenty in common with your 14 year old self. This thread has really brought out the adolscent in some posters I had previously respected. Fucking enlightening, it’s been.