Rather than risk derailing this thread, I thought I’d bring my question to the general populace. In a post of the referenced thread, Inna Minnit states:
My first thought was that a guy not initiating sexual contact certainly doesn’t mean he isn’t thinking of the other person sexually. I also thought that initiating sexual contact isn’t equivalent to “begging” for it, but I recognize that as a male, I’m not subject to the same stigma that women face when it comes to sex.
So for the women, a couple of questions (and please feel free to add related commentary as you see fit):
How comfortable are/were you with initiating sex for the first time in a relationship? Why? How conscious are you of how it would reflect on you to do so?
Is there a period of time in a dating scenario where you would assume a man was not interested in you sexually if he did not initiate?
This thread is not intended to be limited to heterosexual women, however. All opinions and insight are welcome.
When I was younger, never. Making out was one thing, but actual P in the Vagee needed to be initiated by my boyfriend… in the beginning. Once I became more comfortable with sex and with him, I initiated more.
When I went through my slutty phase, I initiated when I wanted to have sex and thought my partner was receptive. I did not care about the social implications, and I wasn’t looking for a boyfriend anyway.
For the guys I was actually dating, I usually waited for them to initiate first. But in truth, I don’t know if that’s just because I was enjoying the foreplay and didn’t want to rush, or what… I don’t remember making a conscious decision to play coy.
But I waited until I was 21 to have sex for the first time, and was in a serious relationship with that guy for 3 years. So I was a bit older and a bit more sure of myself during my sleeping around phase.
Now with my husband, it’s about 50-50. Even when we were trying to get pregnant, we were about 50-50 in begrudgingly reminding each other that we had to go do it.
Third date without a kiss, I would certainly be questioning. After 30 minutes to an hour of make-outs with no progress towards sex, I would be curious about intentions. But I wouldn’t hesitate to ask, either.
Guy here, and my (now ex) spouse was very uncomfortable initiating. While at the same time uncomfortable if I made it clear I wanted sex without going through a whole romance ritual (with unknowable, ever-changing rules) beforehand. Then she’d be hurt if I didn’t initiate often enough to make her feel attractive.
I think maybe we need to define “initiate” too. My wife’s idea of initiating may be different than mine. In other words, she may think she is initiating and I may not be getting it. She probably has no confusion about my efforts to initiate.
From a male perspective, it’s kinda funny how female initiation tends to be rather overt, whereas males are expected to ease into the initiation with utmost delicacy. It’s an odd game when the roles are reversed.
I totally get what you are saying, and that makes sense. What I don’t get is the whole “Nice girls don’t do that, tee hee” thing. Hangups are what they are, but playing games seems pointless to me.
Well, gentlemen are also encouraged to NOT go straight for the V just out of the blue, if we *are *to be addressed as gentlemen.
But Secret Codes! Y’see, that’s part of the problem… from my POV about that last list:
#4 in this day and age means stay away or else remain in presence of witnesses and let nothing happen.
#3, #2 sorry but I was conditioned very thoroughly over decades that this must be taken at face value period full stop nothing more nothing less. It creates an opportunity for initiating but by itself is not initiating.
#1 okay, THIS may be a first step. But only a first step.
The subtle approach DOES have an important use and advantage and it is to provide a face-saving way to disengage when it becomes obvious the parties do not have the same goals or are not clicking tonight.
Perhaps I should have included that my “secret codes” were secret to everyone but me and my husband. He knows, after 11 years of being together, that those are MY secret code to him that I want to get busy.
I don’t suggest you use these in the dating world. LOL!
From my (idiosyncratic) hetero male vantage point, I absorbed a great fear of being too aggressive physically, partly from seeing lots of media with guys getting slapped, kicked in the groin, et cetera. I also feared being thought of as sleazy, boorish, and the like. I’m also a feminist, and didn’t want to ever make a woman feel threatened.
So, when I was 19 and on a college campus, I had assumed that campuses in general had a version of the “Antioch Sex Code”, in which one needs to obtain clear permission/consent each step of the way. Thus, while making out, with that in my mind, and having recently gleaned (from an offhand comment of my makeout partner) the idea that what two dating partners should do next is move on to what was once known as “heavy petting”, I just asked if I could finger her.
That did not end well. By itself, it wasn’t what broke us up (which was not a bad thing, she’s rather malicious), but that’s when things started falling apart. No, what bothered me was how she (irony here) proceeded to subsequently mock me to her roommates and perhaps other students, imitating me “like you were [I was] retarded.” Yeah, that was embarrassing.
This is all to say that subsequently, when women have initiated things I have greatly appreciated it, but my fear never went away. At least I learned far smoother, easier ways to initiate/escalate/whatever.
I grew up much the same way. I was taught that not only did “No mean No,” but everything else did too. Basically, you had to do a tox screen and a psych eval to establish capability to give consent, then get the consent signed, witnessed and notarized in triplicate. And then double-check to make sure she hadn’t changed her mind.
Heck, even with my wife, that little nagging fear in the back of my head is still there. Because, I can’t even take marriage as an assumption of consent. “Ohh, baby… are we ready to bring in the notary?” :smack:
(And I’m not saying this to belittle the importance of consent, in case anyone should read it the wrong way.)
Hetero male here. I’ve encountered a couple different situations:
Pre-consent. I’ve had on several occasions the woman be quite open and say, “Come over and fuck me.” Even before a first date.
Making out and not being sure how far she wants to go. I take it slowly so as to be sure along the way.
“Not now but later–and soon.” I’ve gotten naked with chicks who didn’t want to do it on the first date (cuz that’s slutty?) but were open to doing a lot. Then it’s a bangfest on the second date.
Then there is the matter of initiation once the relationship begins. Again, I guess I’ve been fortunate, as I’ve mostly had girlfriends who’ve said, “Let’s do it,” when they felt like it.
I like to initiate. For some reason I’m likely to say no in a defensive kind of mode if he does. I don’t like the idea that he’s already ready if I haven’t done anything to get him that way yet. Even though I know there’s just a biological reason why, it still bugs me. Like I’m being used for something rather than us doing something together. I should probably see a shrink about this stuff.
When I was young I was lacking self respect and maturity to abstain. I was attractive so I had no trouble finding guys who were interested but I was too easy. I thought I could use sex to hook them. It doesn’t work. They either feel like being a boyfriend or they don’t. Being able to get a guy to orgasm was like the ultimate compliment, or that’s how I felt, wanted, desired, lusted after. I had no trouble initiating and never thought about my reputation. Was just living the moment.
I had 2 outright rejections to me initiating sex that I remember. One was a guy in college who had a girlfriend at another school but they were on a break seeing other people. We were actually naked in bed and I was coming on really strong but it was going nowhere. He said it wasn’t working because he loved his gf too much, apologized, got dressed, and left. That never happened to me! I’ve always wondered if he was gay because that was way too much willpower for a 20 year old! Maybe the gf excuse was true. Maybe he was too nervous. Who knows. I didn’t take it as a blow to my ego because I knew it was his issue as there were so many others who had proven I was “good”.
The other was my first husband. We were on our 2nd or 3rd date and in his truck making out. I made it obvious I was willing. He said no, let’s wait. I begged and he said he felt this could become really serious and he wanted it to be special. So we waited until the week before our wedding and just couldn’t take it anymore.
It happened to me when I was young and she totally freaked me out, but I was so grateful. Good times. Changed my perception of women forever, to one of respect (don’t ask cause I don’t know).
