Women - How much of a pain are male non-acquaintances?

In My Humble Opinion
61

I once had a guy tell me that because I accepted his invitation to go play billiards with him, he knew that the game would be followed by a roll in the hay. I was shocked at how “sure, I’ll play pool” was heard as “sure, let’s fuck”.

Guys who are lurking on this thread, if you’re ever puzzled and frustrated by women who are instantly on the defensive, it’s because of our encounters with idiots like this. We learn from our mistakes. I learned that it’s not safe to play an innocent game with guys who are not my boyfriend/husband. And no, this was not in Afghanistan.

(No, he did not get any.)

62

This is one of those things that is subject to interpretation to some degree. At various parties or bars it’s interesting how some women will view *any *attempt to talk to them about anything as an attempt to hit on them and be standoffish to the point of near rudeness while others will engage in interesting conversations. Then, when you are in the middle of a great conversation with that engaging woman, and they hear what you are saying, they will want to come over get in the middle of that conversation and chat you up, almost aggressively.

Not sure what’s going on there.

63

My coworker passed by me one morning, and beeped at me instead of saying my name. Since I don’t look at cars except the ones in front, and I learned to ignore honks and any words coming from anyone while walking (because when I don’t, I tend to get the creepy ones I mentioned earlier), I ignored him. He saw me later that day at work, and commented how I don’t look anywhere, as he was there and would have given me a ride to work (I take the bus).

I didn’t tell him the reason I ignored him because this was just a passing hallway talk.

64

?? Not difficult to figure out at all. You’ve proven that you’re willing to talk to a person and treat them as a person, the snub-women see that you’re doing so, and decide they like you after all. They’re not willing to deal with chances. They let the engaging women deal with a potential skeezebag and when you’ve proved you’re a decent guy instead, they swoop in.

65

What’s going on there with the women who are standoffish or rude is this that I posted just above yours:

It doesn’t take too many experiences like this where the woman thinks a situation is innocent and non-sexual but is twisted around to being one foot in bed before she adopts Resting Bitch Face with all strange men in her vicinity. I suspect the ones you noticed being chatty and friendly just haven’t been cornered into these situations enough to learn the lesson. Nobody thinks that’s sadder than me. I would LOVE to make all kinds of male friends and play pool or golf or fly kites or whatever with them but I’ve been taught that men expect every encounter with a woman to turn sexual. Actually, I know not ALL men expect that. But I can’t identify one from the other without putting myself into unfortunate encounters, so I just don’t bother trying.

66

That, and you know the other side exists, too. I’ve gotten scolded for “flirting” when I was just being friendly. Because I had no intention of dating the guy, so talking to him is flirting, so clearly I was leading him on.

Plus a lot of the time “standoffish” is just shy or introverted or maybe they weren’t in the mood to speak at that exact moment. I don’t go to bars, ever, so I can’t speak for there, but I’d be cautious speaking to strange men in bars. However, if you are talking to another woman, and I join, it’s no longer flirting but a group conversation and much less fraught with meaning.

67

JcWoman, you make very valid points. Sadly, though, you don’t even have to have the bad experiences to be weary.

Don’t walk alone at night.
Don’t leave your drink unguarded at a party.
Make sure someone knows where you are when you go on a date with a man you don’t know well.
Probably best not to go out dressed like that, who knows what you’ll encourage!

Women are taught these things over and over again from the time we are sexually developing (before, in some cases), and male strangers wonder why we look at them like they’re all potential kidnaping, drugging, murdering, rapists? And of course, women go out into the world and find that it’s not completely true, but then again, just about any woman you asks has a scary story, a close call, or serious trauma in her past.

When I’m at a bar, or a party, and a man approaches me, it’s not really scary, because it’s socially appropriate, and lots of other people are around. We are (generally) there to mingle and talk. And as long as he respects a “no thanks,” reply to his ofter to buy me a drink (or whatever), then no harm no foul.

Now lets move this encounter to the park. I’m not there to mingle or talk - I’m there to enjoy nature, or exercise. There are people around, but not as many. A man approaches me - he looks normal, but how can I be sure? “Nice day out! You here to run?” he says. “Yup,” I say to be polite. I look around to make sure there are others in shouting distance. “Yeah, I can tell you work out, you look good.” Uh oh. Alarm bells. “Thanks,” I say, because we’ve got to uphold those social niceties. “Have a good day.” I walk away. Then, I spend the next ten minutes keeping an eye out to make sure he doesn’t following me on my run.

I don’t think most men would realize that they’d made me nervous - some would think I was simply uninterested, some would think I was a stone cold bitch, and some would walk away feeling wounded, internalizing. But they probably wouldn’t get that I was scared of them, because most men haven’t experienced being smaller and weaker than half of the population. They haven’t had their physical vulnerabilities drilled into them by society and culture and experience over and over again. Most men have never been held down and kissed, or had their ass pinched, or felt up against their will and known that there was no way to get away. And we can tell them what that’s like, but can they ever really know?

68

And this really pisses me off because you don’t need to do ANY of this shit to get in trouble! Our uncles are touching us without permission, sometimes our dads, sometimes it’s our friend’s dads, sometimes it’s friends we thought we trusted. We get fed this line of bullshit that if we just follow the rules, if we just do what we are told, then we will be safe.

Something I don’t talk about a lot is that my dad molested me. I don’t talk about it much because it’s frankly not something I want to think about. It was long in the past and I don’t really have any trauma from it. Dad and I have an OK relationship nowadays. But when people go into their stupid long litany of what women are supposed to do, I always think fuck you. I was home, being good, doing what good young girls are supposed to do, and it happened to me anyway.

69

Yeah, I know you don’t have to do any of that stuff to get in trouble. I was saying that list is the kind of thing society teaches women, so even if we don’t have bad experiences, we may still feel afraid. I’m not saying that the list is true (especially the last point on it), or that it will keep a woman safe.

I was a “good girl” too. Never did any of those things. I’ve still been sexually assaulted. In public.

I’m sorry you went through that shit. It must have been awful.

70

I should have been clearer, I was building off your point. :slight_smile: I knew you weren’t saying those rules were the most important thing.

Thanks for the kind words. But that’s another part of it, too, like many women, I am not defined by three incidents that happened when I was 17. Does that mean I forget it? Hell no! And like you said, that makes me cautious and wary.

But after all these experiences, most of us women still like men, and still want to talk to them, and just because we’re cautious from experience doesn’t mean we shut ourselves off or anything. We’re just more cautious.

71

Yeah, I don’t think it’s that universal–at least not from my speaking with friends about it–and I certainly don’t mind getting hit on by someone of the same sex if they’re poilte and get the hint, but I do remember one guy who would just not relent, after I figured out what he where he was going (I was young and this was all new to me at the time), and after I made it clear I had a girlfriend and was not interested in dudes. Otherwise, though, I had a nice conversation with him, and didn’t mind the company. Basically, the night ended with him trying to invite me up into his place, me declining repeatedly despite his protests, but still playing nice, and finally giving in to giving him a “good night hug” in which he proceeded to lick my neck. It was an odd experience, and one of the first things I thought was “ok, this must a small glimpse into what it’s like to be a woman and try to drive off unwanted suitors.”

72

Nm

73

Fascinating stuff. I was also thinking of that recent video of the woman in NYC getting harrassed & catcalled something like 100 times. Also, when we guys hear some story about women being harrassed, someone will typically say something along the lines of “It wouldn’t bother me if I was getting hit on by women all the time”. A long, long time ago, when gays were still subject to a lot of bigotry, Citadel Hill in Halifax used to be a gay cruising area. One evening when I was out for a run I decided to go up Citadel Hill, for the hill. That one time I had a guy pacing me in a car all the way up the hill. It wasn’t a comfortable feeling and I am empathetic towards women about this.

74

I’ve been married a long time, and even when I was single I never approached a woman I didn’t know and done anything like that. Has that really worked for anyone? I mean, does anyone who is married say they met their spouse this way? I guess my feeling is that any woman who is foolish enough to fall for pick-up lines isn’t very smart and I wouldn’t be interested in her anyway.

75

The guys who do pickup lines aren’t generally looking for a life mate. They’re looking to get laid, that’s all.

76

I’ve approached women I’ve been attracted to who I didn’t know, always thought I was respectful and non-threatening, never used cheesy pickup lines, and always took no for an answer. But I can see how it must be a burden to have to deal with for a woman. I just didn’t see another way to meet people I was attracted to beyond my social and professional circles. This was 25 or so years ago mostly, before everything was online. It was certainly a low percentage approach, seemed like most attractive people were already involved (or at least that’s what they often told me!), or just not comfortable going out with someone they don’t know, but I got a few dates, relationships, even a marriage this way. The range of responses would go from outright hostilty “Leave me alone creep” to “Thanks, you made my day, lets get together” all of which I perfectly understood, and learning to handle the rejection, and fear of it, was worthwhile.

77

:confused:
It did. I said I thought that was benign and it didn’t bother me.

ETA: This interaction took place while I was standing right at the prescription counter at the drugstore. You know, where there’s lots of security cameras and other people milling about. That guy was harmless. Now, had he waited in the parking lot for me and didn’t take no for an answer, that would be a different story. But that’s not what happened here.

78

I think the difference has a lot to do with the tenor of a conversation.

In the example I gave upthread, the guy who approached me straight up admitted he’d been looking at my body and thought I was an athlete. (I am athletic, but that doesn’t mean I’m a runner.) So that was my red flag: He is only interested in my body. Because he didn’t ask my name. He didn’t care who I am. He just wanted to comment on my body. And he was fairly nonthreatening about it, but still. That was objectifying, which by definition is dehumanizing. That doesn’t necessarily mean the experience was traumatic for me and now I’m afraid of the CVS. That’s not the case at all.

But I can tell from the initial approach – when I’m in a socially appropriate setting for strangers to be approaching one another, like in a bar – if the person is interested in me as a human being or if he just wants to fuck. If a person is interested in me as a person, he will ask personal questions and take note of the answers. He’ll ask my name and use it later in conversation. He will ask what I do and maybe even ask a couple of follow up questions. He will be interested in more than simply my physicality. If a dude approaches me, talks about nothing but himself (hard-sell technique that’s supposed to convince me he’s worthy of boning), and fails to ask my name or show any interest in all in anything besides sex/my body, then his intentions are nefarious, AFAIC.

So perhaps this “great conversation” is something that was sexually neutral so that people feel comfortable and safe participating. If it’s already a sexually charged conversation, I’m not the type who wants to see that jacked up to 11. But a sexually benign conversation? (sports, tv, movies, weather, books, art, hobbies/activities) I might jump right in if I see there’s a chance to exercise my brain.

79

A timely post over at Captain Awkward about this exact thing: #685: “Quit touching!”: A review – CaptainAwkward.com

80

Just as a heads up the upshot of that “experiment” was that it’s very difficult to get actual public “catcalls” except in a very narrow context where you have a population of underemployed or unemployed men hanging out on public sidewalks in densely populated urban areas. Other than drunk groups of men outside of bar, nightclub or party venues the whole notion that there is some substantial population of men hooting and hollering at women walking in public is absurd. Outside of the aforesaid contexts the chances of a woman walking down a public street in the US getting random cat call shout outs is very tiny bordering on infinitesimal.