Yes, Rape is HEINOUS but One Must Go On: or The Public Incineration of WOOKINPANUB

This is less a pitting than a personal observation, but I know it’s gonna end up here so I might as well start it here.

This article is about a young woman who was sexually assualted three years ago. I imagine it’s intent is to be uplifting and encouraging to those who have been through similar ordeals. To me, it reads exactly the opposite.

This is the part where you’re all going to crucify me: she sounds like a permanent victim to me; like her new identity in life is “rape victim”. It’s not that I don’t sympathize; nobody should have to go through shit like this. But there comes a time when you have to put shit behind you.

For the purpose of disclosure, I’ve been raped and gone through the whole unbelievably demeaning, time consuming, torturous ordeal. It sucks in the very largest of ways. And you survive. And you get cognizant of the fact that some people are shitty, and one of them has just done something incredibly shitty to you. Is it difficult? Hells yeah, but I believe, like any other flaming pile of shite Life might hand you, you find a way not to let it define who you are. Not to wear it like a badge of pain.

Again, I’m not “bothered/angered” by this phenomenom as much as puzzled by it. Okay, actually I am a little angered in the way you are when someone is hysterical and you want to slap them so you can calm them down and get them to take whatever the next move is that will improve the situation. Here is a beautiful, obviously talented woman who is letting an admittedly fucked-up chapter in her life take up the majority of space in her soul.

After you all kick my ass, can somebody shed light on any of this? No need to point out the obvious “different folks different strokes” thing; I’m looking for something a little more in depth. Has anyone been a victim of a crime and can’t get passed it? If so, why? Does anyone share my take on it, or am I just the world’s coldest beyotch?

I’ve gotta sign out for now, so I won’t be able to defend myself, er, respond to you, but I’ll be back to sift through my own charred remains a bit later.

Thanks in advance to anyone who actually wants to try to share some insight

Oh, this is going to be ugly.

For expediency’s sake, I will direct you to a prior thread about rape that actually ended up pretty informative and posters actually saw each others’ points of view. From last year.
As to why the vicious cycle of emotions/victimhood attitude, I imagine it has a lot to do with the fact that the victim not only blames themself for the rape, but so does most everyone else. Plus, it’s very

Crap.

Plus it’s very invasive. Lots of guilt. Lots of different messages coming from just about everyone. Get help. Get on with your life. Get some pepper spray. Go to self defense classes. Wear clothes that aren’t so slutty.

Then there’s the shame involved.

Bottom line, some people are able to bounce back, some need help. But seeing an attacker around every corner isn’t uncommon.

Well, I sort of agree with you WOOKINPANUB.

Sort of. A while back, someone on here suggested that rape was the worst thing that could ever happen to a woman, because her soul would be permanently damaged and she would never be a whole person again, and always be a damaged, shell of her former self.

To which I replied “bullshit.”

I’ve been raped. I got over it. Now, it was a really long time ago - more than 3 years for sure, although I think even after about 6 months I was feeling much better about the whole thing.

BUT, I would certainly never tell another person how they should feel about something that happened to them. Do I think the woman in the article is dwelling on a really shitty thing that happened to her? Maybe. Am I angered or annoyed that she’s doing it? Hell no. It’s her event, and her pain, and if it gives her a bit of control in her head over what happened, more power to her.

I guess that’s what I think is going on. By becoming active in “rape awareness” type campaigns, I think these women (and men) feel like they’re getting a bit of control of their life back.

I’m not sure what is pit-worthy in the article. Yes, some people will recover easily from a sexual assault. Others won’t, ever. And it doesn’t even seem to be her case, anyway.
You’re writing “No need to point out the obvious “different folks different strokes” thing” but it’s exactly that. I can think of two examples close to home (that I won’t detail) where the reactions fell on the opposite ends of the scale, the bad exteme being suicide. I would even say that it isn’t only true for rapes, or or crimes in general. Some people can’t get over, won’t ever get over some events.

I feel the same way about people that let any one thing take over their life. as in…rape victims, recovering alcoholics, fundie christians, a lot of gay people, etc etc etc. When you let one thing or one event be what your entire self image revolves around, that’s bad. It’s understandable for a period of time, such as the rape victim, but when it’s still the focus of your life and the thing you define yourself by years later, it has gone too far.

BUT, I would certainly never tell another person how they should feel about something that happened to them. Do I think the woman in the article is dwelling on a really shitty thing that happened to her? Maybe. Am I angered or annoyed that she’s doing it? Hell no. It’s her event, and her pain, and if it gives her a bit of control in her head over what happened, more power to her.

(The above quote is from alice_in_ wonderland. How do ya code quotes on a Mac?)

Good point, alice , and I’m aware that it’s not my place to tell her or anyone else how to feel. It somehow bugs / puzzles me, nonetheless. Maybe it’s some nutty kind of “if you’re still paralyzed by this dispicable act, then the rapists have won” outlook. I guess I’d like to see an article featuring a woman saying “Fuck you! You think I’m gonna sell the house I love because of the likes of you? Think I’m gonna cringe every time I see a _________(in her case teenager)? Hell no!” Guess if I want to see that article I’m gonna have to write it my self :slight_smile:

Thanks to all who have responded thus far (and with no acrimony!?)

Maureen for what it’s worth, our exchange towards the end of that thread is an exemplar of why the Dope is worth the price of subscription. And, as a side note, I hope your friend is doing much better.

WOOKINPANUB: Welcome to the Dope! Quote tags are, I think, the same for any computer. <quote> Blah blah blah bush sucks blah blah blah </quote>, replacing the < >'s with 's

As for your OP’s main thrust, I think (from the status of being a man who won’t ever really have to worry about this particular type of crime) is that there are a lot of mixed messages out there. You’ve stumbled upon one of them by accident: saying that people should be able to get over it sometimes adds a burden of guilt to those who don’t get over it. After all, what’s wrong with them, eh? Can’t they just let it go? (Not that you’re saying that, but it can come across that way.)

Feeling bad is awful enough without feeling bad for feeling bad.

And as the thread that Maureen linked to demonstrated, even statements which seem harmless to some of us have the potential to really get under the skin of others. I think I spent the bulk of a good few pages trying to clarify how saying that everybody, men and women, should be able to protect themselves doesn’t mean that they are ‘to blame’ for anything violent which happens to them, while also stating that safety measures can help prevent similar instances from happening.

It’s a thin line to walk… and saying “This is what you can do to protect yourself in the future” can sound an awful lot like “This is the reason why it’s your fault because you weren’t protecting yourself when it happened.”

And, let’s face it, sometimes the impact of a crime is that it shatters your illusion of safety. That’s the reason, I’d wager, why some people still haven’t, and probably never will totally get over 9/11. If I was the victim of a home invasion, I’d wager it’d be awful hard to feel totally comfy in my house for quite some time.

D’oh!

And if you want to quote a specific poster, it’s <quote=GiantTacoMonster> Tacos are wonderful, yay! </quote>

Also, as a semi-advanced trick, you can make the quote a link to the post itself.

<url=post info> <quote=GiantTacoMonster> Tacos are wonderful, yay!</quote> </url>

There’s also the handy little Reply (actually “Reply With Quote”) button under every post

{quote=name of person you’re quoting}Do quotes like this, except use square brackets{/quote}

I don’t see where you’re getting from the article that this woman has adopted an identity of “permanent victim.” For one thing, she says right in the article that she is moving past feeling like a victim, and started making that transition about six to eight months ago. It’s been just under three years since she was raped, and she’s making continuing progress toward recovery. Her timetable is such that this is how much time it’s taking her. Yours or any other raped person’s is going to be different. The important thing is that she’s doing what she needs to do to recover, and if that means she needs to talk about it a lot and share her story at survivor groups and mask exhibits and whatever, there’s nothing Pitworthy about it. It’s an article about a rape survivors art project; what should her interview be about?

It’s kind of ironic, because I had told someone just before that discussion that while the posters here are brilliant and the arguments are well thought out and very well supported, middle ground wasn’t something we seem to strive for. That thread was one I came away from feeling like everyone actually tried to understand.
And thanks, she is. :slight_smile: Moved away from Utah, which helped enormously. I found out some things about that state that I really didn’t like, and I wasn’t that fond of it before.

Wasn’t there a GD thread sometime back about that? That safety is an illusion that we convince ourselves to believe? I think that’s more or less true.

I don’t think I have it in me to tell a woman she’s responding to rape the wrong way. It’s her right to respond to it however she wants. Anything between “laugh it off,” to “wear a badge of victimhood her whole life” to “write a poignant song or novel about it.” Her prerogative.

Well, I can see the OP’s point, sort of.

DIfferent people handle things differently, though. Some people are extremely resiliant, and some people are much less so. And some people (and this is the part where I see the OP’s point) seem to choose to wallow in their difficulties.

I’m a resiliant person myself, and so I have a tendency to suspect less resiliant people of wallowing. I try to rise above this and remind myself that some people just don’t bounce back from problems easily… But it’s hard, because it’s always hard to truly understand people who are different from you.

I’ve never been raped, BTW, but I have a disabled child. This is another one of those difficulties that some people seem to allow (or can’t help letting) consume their whole life.

I do think there is something misogynistic about the idea you see sometimes that rape is somehow in a completely different sphere of horribleness than anything else that could happen to anyone–it heakens back to the idea that a woman was only valuble insofar as you were sure her babies were your babies. This is not to say that rape isn’t horrific, and comparisons are odious, but I don’t think it’s an order of magnitude worse than anything else that could happen to someone: having your children die, dieing slowly from some really painful degenerative disease, being stoned to death . . .life has lots and lots of ways to hurt us.

I’ve been doing some thinking on this subject as of late, and I have come to the following conclusions. The first conclusion everyone on this board will completely agree with. The second conclusion will be met with the sound of one lone, slow, and never ending cricket chirp (which is indistinguishable from the beep on Ralph Macchio’s answering machine).

Fact 1: Since the dawn of humanity, women have found themselves in positions to be the victim of the sexual appetite of the male collective.

Fact 2: So have men.

Now, first of all I am not making any excuses for those who would do these kinds of things. Rape should be dealt with swiftly and brutally. It is an offense to the human soul that in many cases is worse than murder. 95% of the women that I have had relationships with throughout my life were raped or molested in some way.

95%!

I used to think that I just had some knack for picking them, that I had some subconscious attraction to women who have been victimized in that way. Now I know that this isn’t the case, but the truth is much, much worse, because the fact is that it has nothing to do with me. It is simply that most women have been raped or molested in some way during their lifetime. I wish it were just me.

I’ve spent considerable time dealing with this. And I flatter myself that I understand what a person goes through when this happens. I’m not saying I know what it is like to be raped, but I think I understand the mechanics of the event and the dynamic of the aftermath. I was raised around it.

I have to believe that most men who commit rape (MOST) would never have committed the crime if they could only see exactly what it is that they are doing to a person in performing the act. I have to believe that if a person truly understood what rape did to another person, they would not be able to pull it off (allowing for a few sociopaths that just truly do not care one way or another). The sexual drive of man is probably the most powerful emotion on the planet. A man who commits rape justifies the act any way he can to make him feel better about it. Maybe he does it simply through the belief that what transpired was merely a physical attack, similar to a bully beating the shit out of a kid on the playground. Perhaps this justification is a simple mechanic of evolution Yeah, it sucks, but you’ll get over it. No real big deal in the grand scheme of things, right? Christ it wasn’t that bad!

If only he understood that in the majority of cases his “simple physical act” caused permanent damage to the human mind akin to… let’s say upper level Vietnam flashbacks where you are talking to your friend in a fox hole about existentialism one moment and then wearing his thoughts about existentialism on your jacket like sequins on a bad blouse the next. It really is that bad. You never get over something like that, and the best that you can hope for is a day every now and then where you are distracted enough by life’s events that you don’t have much time to think about it.

My other theory has to do with why rape is so much worse than any other physical attack to the human mind. If you take away all of the symbolism behind it, all of what sexual assault represents to us (many arguments are based on the fact that it is the physical violation of our body, the forced penetration and what it represents that causes all of the pain in our minds, but I don’t buy that so much as once you strip it down to the bare metal the PHYSICAL act is not unlike being held to the ground in a school yard by a bully while he forces his finger in your mouth). So what’s left? The symbolism? I don’t know about that.

In the case of the Vietnam flashback, you are recalling a shock to the system caused by what you witnessed. There isn’t much symbolism in that. You are talking to your friend in a foxhole one moment, and you are wearing him the next. This is pretty cut and dry to me. Obviously you aren’t forgetting that.

With rape, I think there is more than meets the eye. Maybe we’ll understand it completely someday, maybe not.

Consider the following:

The sexual mechanics of the human body are parasympathetic, meaning that your body responds positively in the subconscious state regardless to your current disposition about the moment in the conscious state; although you are fighting off your attacker and are simultaneously revolted, and frightened by the event consciously, your mind is responding in a positive manner in the subconscious. Your mind is processing and performing the basic functions of your body to accept what is happening, just as it would had the sexual encounter been consensual. It seems that the subconscious brain doesn’t know one event from the other. This is another simple mechanic of evolution.

It seems to me that this sets up a scenario for the one thing that most rape victims have the most difficulty dealing with after the event and for the rest of their lives, enormous guilt. They feel guilty because they sensed this parasympathetic mechanism and incorrectly interpreted it as a kind of subconscious reciprocity, and that guilt stops them from speaking out. It stops them from calling the police. They begin to decompress and intellectualize the event. Perhaps they feel guilty because they sensed some part of them was responding positively to what transpired that ran counter to what they were feeling on the outside. Maybe my body didn’t fight as hard as it could have. Maybe subconsciously I wanted it, and indeed he must have picked up on that because he kept repeating that very thing in my ear, over and over:

“Come on baby. Don’t fight. you know you want it.”

And why did I go out that night dressed the way I was? Perhaps some part of me really did want this. Am I sick?

Do you see how this gets turned back on the victim so easily?

Now obviously this doesn’t cover the full spectrum of rape and what it leaves in its destructive wake, but I think there really is something to this line of thinking. And I know that I may not have the most precise grasp of the concept of rape (being a man and all), but I have spent many, many years in the presence of victims of rape and I know that I’m not that far off the mark.

I’d like to know what you think.

Maybe this:

“She doesn’t worry about leaving the front and back doors open anymore. She wants to feel the balmy air wafting through her kitchen. She says she wants the sunlight to find its way inside.”

I’m not going to pass judgment on her still being relatively obsessed by a terrible thing that happened to her. But sheesh, lock the doors.

That is so true, you can try to reduce chances but quite honestly at any moment something completety unplanned for and impossible to prevent can sideswipe and change your life in a negative way. I prefer not to dwell on being afraid and just using some caution.
WOOKINPANUB I agree with the title of your OP but like many others have said, it is understandable that it takes much longer for some people.

Jim

Doesn’t seem to be working out for me if I don’t want to include the whole post, so I’ll try that there paste and delete move.

Back on topic, I know I haven’t conveyed my thoughts very well. That’s why I put this in the pit; because I feared I’d offend some people. I asked people not to respond with the “different folks” explanation, and I was called on it. Perhaps rightly so. I will try once again to clarify that my response to the article isn’t some form of contempt for the victim, but my perception (that’s right, MY perception) that it creates more wallowing room. Celebrate her art. Celebrate her road to recovery. Recreating the event with quotes like “I never thought anything would be beautiful ever again” is melodramatic and sensationalistic.

Why oh why didn’t I start this in IMHO
:smack:

Some excellent points have been made (please don’t ask me to quote, for the love of God!)as to why rape victims are more stigmatized than victims of other crimes, societal blame on the victim being the main one. That’s a fact and it’s abhorrent. Somehow, this oftens ends up adding a certain , errr, “martyrdom” (I know I’m gonna pay for saying that) to it that allows the victim to stay in “victim mode”. It’s not their fault; it’s the doing of the very entities that stigmatized the crime to begin with.

Okay, now I’m on a roll and I’m gonna go ahead and say it: I don’t equate a rape that you’ve survived with the end of the world. And yeah, I do think three years is somewhat excessive. “Equate” and “think” being the operative words here.

How is this, or any other victim, going to put this aspect of her/his life in perspective if she / he is encouraged to “wear a crown of thorns”?

Shit, baaaaad shit, happens to people every day and it feels like our “culture of victimization” allows, if not encourages, people to spend their days mulling on their misfortunes.

Holy epiphany, Batman, I think I just answered my own question.

[QUOTE=Euthanasiast]

I have to believe that most men who commit rape (MOST) would never have committed the crime if they could only see exactly what it is that they are doing to a person in performing the act. I have to believe that if a person truly understood what rape did to another person, they would not be able to pull it off (allowing for a few sociopaths that just truly do not care one way or another). The sexual drive of man is probably the most powerful emotion on the planet. A man who commits rape justifies the act any way he can to make him feel better about it. Maybe he does it simply through the belief that what transpired was merely a physical attack, similar to a bully beating the shit out of a kid on the playground. Perhaps this justification is a simple mechanic of evolution Yeah, it sucks, but you’ll get over it. No real big deal in the grand scheme of things, right? Christ it wasn’t that bad!
QUOTE]

:frowning: I’ve never understood what the man must think about the act before, during and afterwards. I mean, is it completely intentional? Does he feel remorse? Can a rapist be normal? Can a rapist redeem himself? Doesn’t he understand that he has done this horrible, unforgivable thing? Can a rapist ever be accepted by God? I guess these are a lot of questions. I should probably start a new thread. Feel free to email me with answers if you have the time.