Yes, Rape is HEINOUS but One Must Go On: or The Public Incineration of WOOKINPANUB

"I have to believe that most men who commit rape (MOST) would never have committed the crime if they could only see exactly what it is that they are doing to a person in performing the act. I have to believe that if a person truly understood what rape did to another person, they would not be able to pull it off (allowing for a few sociopaths that just truly do not care one way or another). The sexual drive of man is probably the most powerful emotion on the planet. A man who commits rape justifies the act any way he can to make him feel better about it. Maybe he does it simply through the belief that what transpired was merely a physical attack, similar to a bully beating the shit out of a kid on the playground. Perhaps this justification is a simple mechanic of evolution Yeah, it sucks, but you’ll get over it. No real big deal in the grand scheme of things, right? Christ it wasn’t that bad!
:frowning: I’ve never understood what the man must think about the act before, during and afterwards. I mean, is it completely intentional? Does he feel remorse? Can a rapist be normal? Can a rapist redeem himself? Doesn’t he understand that he has done this horrible, unforgivable thing? Can a rapist ever be accepted by God? I guess these are a lot of questions. I should probably start a new thread. Feel free to email me with answers if you have the time.
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(Again, in spite of all the good coding instructions, I’m clearly not the swiftest gazelle on the plain, ‘cause I’m going in circles trying to higlight these comments and it aint workin’!)

Whaaa? Are you mocking / whooshing me and I’m not getting it? Aside from this being more than a bit off topic, I’m not understanding what you’re trying to say.

If you are in earnest, my answer is that whatever goes through a rapist’s head (man or woman) is of no relevancy as it relates to the victim. There’s always been a huge campaign by support groups to assure us all that it’s" a crime of violence / control" as opposed to being sexually motivated. I’ve always held the belief (before AND after it happened to me) that “who the fuck cares?” What a fucking waste of PR.

It’s one(sub)human assaulting another. Period. This, in fact strengthens my original point. People that physically hurt other people need to be brought to justice. Period. Their weapon of choice, be it gun, cock, or a combo of both is of no relevency.

I’m not mocking or wooshing. I think you just aren’t interpreting the tone of my post correctly.

Yes, we’ve had it beaten into our heads that rape is a crime of anger, not passion, but you cannot pigeonhole every rape into one neat little category, especially since we have broadened (rightfully) the spectrum of just what is and what isn’t rape over the years. A guy that jumps out of the shadows and rapes a woman in the alley? Probably anger. A guy who slips a little date rape drug in a girls drink? Maybe passion, but neither is a guaranteed diagnosis. All sexual motivations are not the same.

Do I think they should be punished differently? No. Whether or not the motivations are the same, rape is rape. And I never meant to suggest anything different. I’m simply attempting to understand the reasoning, for the thinking of the predator and the victim.

As a perhaps minor, perhaps illuminating side note, I’ve noticed the easy way people refer to lives being “ruined.” It’s especially common with discussions of child abuse, and it annoys the hell out of me. With the exception of people left in a vegetative state, no life is ever completely ruined. It’s an odious message to assert otherwise.

Most criminal investigators would disagree with you. Establishing a motive, or what makes a criminal tick is a VERY important tool for investigators. To discover who is committing a series of rapes perhaps in a certain part of town, you need to start developing a criminal profile. Who he is. What he looks like. What his habits are. Etc.

Not to mention, it’s also important in preventing kids from growing up to become criminals in the first place.

I honestly will never understand people who think it’s not important to figure out why people commit murder, or rape, or terrorism. How are we ever go to stop them in the first place?

Since we have made it to post 24 or 25 with no vicious attacks and darned few cuss words, I’m moving this to IMHO where it can continue in this vein without being derails by some idiot who feels that she or he simply must angrily denounce some other post(er). (This is not for the purpose of squelching disagreements or discussions, just an effort to keep the discussion as calm as it has currently survived.)

[ /Moderating ]

WOOKINPANUB, you might try looking over the instructions in the vB code list availavle from the FAQ pages regarding quotes and such. (The vB software is the same regardless whether you’re on a PC or Mac.)

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/misc.php?do=bbcode (Quote instructions are down near the bottom.)

I’m sorry, but this is just simply not true.

And I’m speaking here as a rape victim. In fact, as a woman who has been raped more than once. Guess what - I got over it, as do most women.

I appreciate that every woman is different, but you don’t seem to. You really don’t get rape - if I had to choose between being raped again, and being forced to fight in a war, uh, military action in which I watched my closest friends being killed, blown up, etc, and I was forced to kill people for whom, 6 months ago, I had no particular bone to pick with, I’m gonna choose the rape.

The over dramatizing of the after affects of rape is demoralizing to women who have experienced and have gotten over it. “There, there dear. I know you SAY you’re ok, but if you just thought about the magnitude of the horror you’ve suffered, you KNOW you would break down!” It’s patronizing, and just plain NOT TRUE, for many, many woman (and men) who have experienced it.

Obviously, there are people for whom rape is the absolute worst thing that will ever happen to them in their lives. I just don’t happen to be one of those women, and I resent being lumped in with them. It minimizes the other rotten crap that’s happened in my life, which, for me and for many others, was infinitely worse.

I’m not saying that people can’t be impacted through previous feelings. Like everyone else, I’ve got to tread lightly especially with such a delicate topic.

That’s one of the differences between us and the rest of the animals. Emotions. We let them get in the way of things sometimes. Ever see the video of the chiuhauha that lost both its back legs and had them replaced with a chariot? The dog just keep on trucking. People can’t immediately do that. People have to grapple with the emotional impact of losing their legs. The problem arises when they let it take over their identity. Catqastrophes happen all the time to different people. They wreck people when they let it. When you learn from such experiences, it can end up empowering.

WOOKINPANUB, I agree with you. Thanks for having the guts to speak your mind.

I don’t seem to appreciate that every woman is different? As far as your post indicates you are referring to you. that’s one woman. I have been in relationships with at least 12 women who’s experience runs counter to yours. It’s great that you were able to get over it (it truly is a gift–consider yourself to be one of the luckiest people on the planet) , but you need to understand that you are in the vast minority here. The women that I have known where very good people in every respect and strong in almost every way, yet their lives have been virtually crippled by what has happened to them.

Sorry, but you are way wrong here. Most women do not get over it. I’ve seen far too much evidence to the contrary.

You’re saying that a woman can get over being raped multiple times but she gets demoralized when someone is perceived to over dramatize the after effects of rape? You’re strong enough to defeat the hold that rape took over you, but gosh, don’t dramatize the after effects? Look , I don’t know the specifics of what happened to you, but I have spent the better part of my life in the company of women that were deeply affected by rape. A few of them were reduced to not being able to function as complete human beings. If my ‘over dramatizing’ of the situation happens to step on the toes of those that ‘got over it’, I got to tell you, I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.

Did you read in my previous posts where I stated, “Take alice_in_wonderland for instance.”?

Don’t tell me I don’t get rape. Believe me, after almost twenty years of trying to clean up the messes that were made by rape. I get it.

I agree that this is a dangerous word to use.

Lives aren’t ruined - they are, however, dramatically altered and/or affected by abuse, rape, molestation, or whatever else.

I, for one, have a life that wasn’t ruined. It was fundamentally altered, however, and there is permanent physiological/neurological damage that will always remain. Ruined, no. Changed, yes. Positively changed because of it? Hell no. Learned to work with the hand that was delt? Hell yeah.

<sigh>

You’ve been with 12 women that have had bad experiences. I’m afraid that doesn’t make you an authority on rape.

I don’t claim to be an authority on rape either, but I can assure that I’ve certainly never met a woman who likens the aftermath of rape to that of Vietnam. Frankly, I think that minimizes the experience of vets.

And while you may feel that the 12 women you’ve known will never get over their rape, I’m suggesting that you’re wrong. Rape counsellors tend to agree with me. I’m not suggesting that rape doesn’t leave a mark on the psyche. I am saying that it’s a mark that can be overcome in the vast majority of cases.

Most rape victims don’t live the rest of their lives in fear - most of them get over it, eventually.

I know it’s tough dealing with a simpleton like me. I appreciate your patience. :rolleyes:

I’m not arguing that I am an authority. I am arguing my experiences with multiple instances. You could say that although I don’t have the degree, I have an extensive amount of ‘lab work’.

In at least a couple of instances in my experience, I have. And that in no way minimizes the horrible experiences of vets.

A mark? You make it sound like a mole or something. It’s much bigger than that.

Not in my experience. Sure some of them can get over it, but in my experience they are the vast minority.

I should also qualify how I define ‘get over it’. I assume if you are ‘over’ the rape, that you have no problem with constant depression related to the rape, or certain sexual disfunctions toward other partners because of it, etc.

Well, my Human Sexuality prof, who does have a degree, as well as lab work consisting of thousands of woman, as opposed to 12, disagrees with you.

You are fully entitled to your opinion. What I’m saying is that your experience is contrary to that of experts in the field.

Well, rape. Once, under a set of circumstances too detailed to go into and not germane, I shared some of my funny rape stories with an audience. I had really never done this before–and before I get into the actual story maybe I should quickly get the funny rape stories out of the way.

Spoiler tag for those who don’t think rape can be funny under any circumstances.

[spoiler]First of all, these apply to me. Obviously YMMV. I was raped by a person unknown who broke into my house in the middle of the night and claimed he had a gun and would shoot me unless I did what he said.

Dark humor #1. I was asleep. Most people being awakened by a strange man in their bedroom at 1:30 a.m. would probably wake up and panic immediately. Not me. I thought it was my roommate trying a creative way to wake me so I wouldn’t be late for work (yes, I was hard to awaken).

Dark humor #2. Once I realized that I did not know this guy and that he apparently was serious, I went into kind of an almost-faint. But not quite a faint, because I still had my inner monologue going and it was saying things like, “Okay, I’m supposed to lie back and enjoy this–who the fuck said that? Please god get me out of this alive. Wait, I don’t believe in god…superman, maybe?” and like that. Along with a whole imagined scenario where I talked him into letting me go into the bathroom for my diaphragm, got my gun out of the toilet tank, came back and shot him. (I had an IUD, not a diaphragm. Didn’t have a gun. Wouldn’t have kept it in the toilet tank if I did.)

Dark humor #3. He said he had a gun. He held something cold to my head so I believed him. However, when he left he had nothing in his hands (he was using both of them to hold a t-shirt over his head, presumably so I couldn’t identify him. So where was the gun? Well, mostly likely it wasn’t a gun. Most likely it was …the tube of chapstick I kept by my bed in case I woke up with dry lips in the night. Great. Raped at Chapstick-point.

Dark humor #4. When the cops arrived I was in one of the strangest moods of my life, all things considered. I have to hope that they’ve seen plenty of things like this. But really, I was practically turning cartwheels in the living room. “I’m alive!” (I honestly hadn’t expected to be.) “He didn’t steal my stereo on the way out!” (Big point in his favor. I had lost a couple of really nice systems at that location.) In other words, I was completely nutso, but probably in the opposite way they’d come to expect. (But maybe not.)

Dark humor #5. Okay, anyone who went through the process of actually reporting this to the police knows what you have to go through in that case. A bunch of questions that don’t specifically deal with how to catch him but tend to point the blame toward the victim, and in fact even cast doubt on whether she is, in fact, a victim. So at one point my friend was there (the cops wanted her to leave but I said no), I was getting a little overheated because the cops were focusing on where I’d been all evening before getting home (at a bar), how much I’d drunk (not much, because I don’t really drink), and whether this person might have followed me home from the bar or been someone I’d turned down. When they said that my friend jumped in with, “Wow, you turned somebody down?”

Yes, she really said that. I should say, she arrived a good 20 minutes before the cops so she had even more of my craziness to deal with and she knew me–

Later (on the way to the damned hospital as a matter of fact) I asked her why she said that when they were already doubting my credibility as a victim, and she said, “I thought you were going to assault that cop. I thought you needed to lighten up.” And she was probably right.

/end of self-hijack][/spoiler]

After I told these stories, and even got a laugh out of the audience (Chapstick and “You turned somebody down!”) I felt better. I felt actually lighter, as if I’d been bearing around this dark secret for 25 years, even though consciously, or even unconsciously, I was over it. It wasn’t even a secret–if people were discussing rape I would mention it. Once a male coworker took offense about a news story saying a woman was raped but unharmed, or something like that, anyway he went off on how they couldn’t say she was unharmed now, could they, and I countered that well, no, they could. Because I had been raped, and I was “just raped” and not, for instance, beaten up or killed, so actually that was much, much better. So I didn’t avoid it or repress it but I did suppress it. I didn’t mention it much, because it made people uncomfortable, but talking about it helped me–maybe it demystified it, or something.

So, in a way I congratulate this lady for doing this now, and not 25 years from now. But I can see how people can find it disturbing and think yeah, she ought to get the fuck over it.

That’s actually great news, because now that I know that I am way off base on this, and am suddenly seeing the error of my ways, I can just go tell all 12 of those women that according to your Human Sexuality prof, they should just collectively suck it up and get the hell over it. It’s just rape, right?

I have this unrealistic fear that I’ll get my ass stomped like a narc at a biker rally, but what do I know? I’m just some asshole that lives in the real world, outside the blurred and blissful lines of a college campus.

I’ll take real world experience over college theory any old day of the week, thank you just the same.

Something that I think I should have brought up about these women that I have known. Almost all of them were raped by someone very close to them (family). In at least one case, a father coming into his daughter’s bedroom night after night for years. Admittedly this would have made the rape worse for a number of reasons. This is where I am able to draw comparisons to veterans in combat. I wasn’t really referring to traditional date rape or rape from a stranger in the dark. Obviously these scenarios have more impact and would be much more difficult to ‘get over’. Take that for what you will.

A couple things-

  1. There is a sort of market for victims. The thing is, you can PROFIT from not getting over something if you’re eloquent enough or artistically talented in some way. There are plenty of people who use their recovery stories to write books, songs, do art, or just speak about it. They’ve turned their lives into something centering on a trauma or a problem. I’m not one of those, so I can’t speak from experience- but while i wouldn’t say they’re over it, I’d say they’ve taken power back.

  2. Yeah, some people get over it. And some people don’t. And some people dwell on it for years and years and let it take over their lives and take on “victim” as an identity. But what about the people who “get over it” too soon? The people who know nobody wants to hear about it and know nobody wants to be around them if they’re sad and messed up, and so they just don’t deal- That’s when it comes to bite you in the ass later. It goes from being “I was raped, that’s my problem, how do I deal?” to being something much more complicated.

  3. Rape, as a fundamental thing, is heinous. There’s no question about it. But not all rapes are equal. First of all, not all women are equal and not all their reactions to certain things will be the same. Second of all, there’s a difference between getting drunk at a party and having your boyfriend push himself on you and being held at gunpoint, driven to a remote location, raped, beaten, and left for dead. Some women would find the former easier to deal with, and some the latter. There’s also a difference between being raped by Joe Random in a skimask and being raped by your big brother, your boyfriend’s best friend, Once again, different women would deal with one situation better than another. Saying, “I was raped, she was raped, so I know how it feels.” is like saying, “I went to elementary school and she went to elementary school, so I know what it’s like” (never mind that you went to an urban public school and she went to a Catholic boarding school

This is, of course, not to say that if you got over it, it must have not been that bad. Just that, perhaps, Jane’s confidence and strength lies in the fact that she’d never consent to something and therefore it’s not her fault that her boyfriend raped her and she could get over it, but Joe random would turn her into a quivering ball of jelly because she just can’t feel safe anymore. Where Joan’s more prone to blaming herself and would crumble if her boyfriend raped her, but could deal and get past it and learn from it if it were a random act of violence. And then perhaps there’s Jeanne, who has incredible strength and would be just fine no matter what happened to her.

I have been roasted pretty handily for suggesting that the reason that many women find it so hard to get over/past/beyond being raped is that they are told all their lives that rape is worse than death and that if it happens to them, they will be permanently damanged and never really heal.

I still think it’s true. If you believe you cannot get better, you will not get better.

If someone wants to dwell on it the rest of their lives, fine, that’s up to them. I do think they should avoid spreading the ‘it’s worse than death’ message though. That does no good for others who might’ve had a chance at healing.

No, really, not true. When I do think about it now, it’s not that much different in my mind from the time the guy tried to mug me or the time I got my ass kicked in fourth grade. It was a bad event. WAS. It’s over, and it’s done, and it has no power over me now. It doesn’t bother me to think about, I don’t avoid thinking about it, yet it rarely comes to mind. Kind of like getting my ass kicked in fourth grade or when that guy tried to mug me. You can get over something like that. And please, don’t tell rape survivors differently. If they believe they’re permanently damaged, then they have no chance at all. Give 'em a fighting chance. Don’t try and make them believe it never gets better.

It isn’t that way for everybody. That’s actually how I got over it. I asked myself if I’d be all fucked up and depressed if someone had just beat me up or mugged me. Then I asked myself if there was any good reason to treat this different. Then I decided to think of it as ‘that time I lost a fight.’

I agree with this. Life is not ruined unless you’re physically incapable of having one. I’ve had that jaw-open reaction to people who have said ‘Oh my god you were raped? I’d rather be murdered. How do you function? Didn’t it ruin your life?’

Well obviously not. I graduated with an engineering degree, have a career, have normal relationships and friends, and I’m not afraid of the dark. Seems like a pretty un-ruined life to me. :slight_smile:

Except maybe the ones who spend the rest of their lives having it drilled into their heads that they can’t ever really get over it and the best they can hope for is an occasional day that it doesn’t dominate their thoughts and paralyze them with fear?

None. I have as normal a life as anybody else who hasn’t been raped.

Is that so hard to believe? That there are people in this thread who’ve been raped and have no deep-seated emotional scars?

It really wasn’t that bad to me. No worse than gettin the crap kicked out of me or havin a knife stuck in my ribs by some waste of life who wanted my money. I’d actually say it wasn’t nearly as bad as the time a friend of mine got mugged and lost 3 teeth, had six cracked ribs, a concussion and a broken nose when a ‘mugger’ blindsided him coming out of a building. I had a couple surface bruises that were gone in a week. This guy had to get fake teeth!

And just FYI, I knew the guys who attacked me. There were 3 of 'em. I knew them a little over a year. It was at one of their houses.