My kindergarten teacher made me switch to my right hand. This was 1986 in rural NC, so it has happened a lot more recently than 80 years ago.
Couldn’t you just counterargue that this is just one more piece of evidence that all conservative Christians are hypocrites who don’t practice what they preach? It works on multiple levels…
If he looked on his fuck sessions as mortification, he could instead be a modern day Flagellant.
I can think of about a dozen men that I know that have had sex with male prostitutes or even worked as male prostitutes (and those are just the ones I can think of right now, there’s probably a good 50 or so that I’ve known over the years.) After years of therapy (with my wife as the therapist, so she’s known hundreds of men who visited male prostitutes, and she’s on the same page as me, FWIW,) and now in normal heterosexual relationships, they have told me that the sex with men was not driven by sexual attraction, but by a total lack of control over sexual impulses. So if you are going by who they are attracted to, they are not gay. If your definition of gay is “anyone who has ever had sexual contact with someone of the same sex,” then yes, I concede that they are gay, as is Haggard. But I tend to go with the “who are you actually attracted to” definition.
My co-workers and I see this kind of thing a lot, and we get used to it. Sometimes I forget that people who don’t work around this stuff all the time have no clue what they’re talking about, but still have very strong opinions about it. Just because you have sex with someone does not mean you are sexually attracted to them. For all you know, Haggard could be attracted only to women, but when he uses crystal meth his inhibitions are so low he will have sex with men. Would that make him gay? I say no, YMobviouslyV. And allow me to reiterate, I never said he wasn’t gay, I said you can’t assume he is because he had sex with a male prostitute. I know a lot of people who had sex with male prostitutes who will back me up. Obviously I’m not going to get a lot of backing here. Perhaps you should ask all the people you know who had sex with male prostitutes their opinion, and I’ll ask all the people I know, and we’ll compare notes.
Whatever, dude. Point being Haggard is a fucking hypocrite who’s done his best/worst to paint homosexuality as aberrant and sinful behavior leading to the destruction of “family values” as pertains to the Christian Right – the veritable genesis of homophobia.
Meanwhile, straight, bi or gay, he is simply filth.
Period. End of story.
PS-Re: sexual orientation. Don’t give a damn if anyone likes pussy, cock or both. However, if you so out of control you’ll stick your in any hole you can find (hairy asses and beer cans included), I’d say you need some mental help pronto…having said that, I hear nothing beats a Coors light in heat.
Edit: “if you ARE so out of control you’ll stick your DIRTY HARRY in any hole…”
No argument here.
Did these guys have sex with only one male prostitute, consistently, over the course of three years?
Yes, you damned well can assume it, because in the vast, vast majority of cases, that’s exactly what it means. If you’ve got other information, specifically about Haggard’s sex life, by all means, share it, and we can revaluate our assumptions in light of the new evidence. But absent that, I’m going to stick with the “Haggard’s gay” theory because that’s the most likely conclusion that fits the available information.
What exactly is your job, anyway?
Am I going to hell if I say “Church Secretary?”
You may well be going to hell regardless. But at least we’ll be able to laugh when we get there.
That line justifies the entire preceding five pages of this thread.
Sorry my sarcasm wasn’t clear enough. I knew this because my mother went through the same 50 years ago. I thought anyone aware of this would get it. I guess I should use those smilie things more often.
Did everyone understand I was also trying to mock ex-gay organizations? Geez, I guess I gotta be more nasty…
Setting aside the ethical issues of your wife sharing stories about hundreds of her clients, you really have the cart before the horse. Pay attention. This has been pointed out to you before. The sequence of events goes like this –
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Calls male prostitue.
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Drives to a different city to contact male prostitute.
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On occasion snorts meth
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Has sex with male prostitute
This goes on once a month for three years. As **Miller **has pointed out, with the same guy. For you to suggest that he only wants to fuck guys when he does meth tells me that you aren’t about to let the facts get in the way of a pet theory. It’s going to take an awful lot of special pleading on your part to make “he’s not gay” fit in with the above. Oh wait. You’ve already tried that.
Still waiting for the cite for this – “[guys who go to male prostitutes] are just so compulsive they’ll put their dick in anything and everything they can.”
Let me help you narrow your focus a bit. You have identified a set of individuals (guys who go to male prostitutes) and made a descriptive assertion about them (are just so compulsive they will stick their dick[s] in anything they can.) Please answer these questions, if you can.
*If the compulsion is s great that any available orifice will do, why drive 70 miles and overpay when closer, cheaper, considerably less risky options are available? You are positing a complsion so powerful as to be uncontrollable, yet Haggard seems to have have controlled it for the time it took him to make the appointment,score the drugs, and actually get there. Seems like a man very much in control to me.
*Why does your assertion not allow for any male-to-male prostitute activity that is in fact gay? Aren’t there any gay males who visit male prostitutes? Surely there must be.
*If, as it seems likely, for accuracy’s sake you need to change your statement from “these guys” to “some guys”, what percentage are we talking about here? Do you know? Can you back it up? Or are you just blowing smoke?
No, they didn’t, they had sex with lots of different ones.
Now let me ask you a question. Did Haggard have sex with only one male prostitute consistently over the course of three years? You don’t know, do you? That’s what I’ve been trying to say, that noone will address. We don’t know.
Jesus H Christ, has anybody been reading what I’ve been saying? I’ve been saying that we don’t have enough information about his sex life to make a determination! Now you’re asking me to back up that assertion with secret information about his sex life? Are you serious, or have you not been reading my posts?
Probation Officer.
If you do go to hell, save me a seat. I’d like to sit next to someone with a sense of humor.
Bullshit and double bullshit. Your very first post identified him as being in the group [guys who go to male prostitutes]. You pretend to know more than anyone; not only does he frequent male prostitutes, but that by doing so he is almost certainly not gay, merely compulsive to the point of self-destruction. A compulsion that he chooses to satisfy in the most dangerous way possible when much safer avenues ae available.
The working assumption is that Jones’ story is true. It certainly is fair to say “maybe not.” However, little much more need be said. If he did not pay Jones for sex for three years, all of your other dubious assertions are pointless. Why bother inventing these cadres of heteros who seek out gay sex because lust compells them? Men who, according to you, would fuck a jar of flies, but instead prefer to pay for that which has the potential to ruin them?
Bullshit, and double bullshit, Shirley.
Wow, the ignorance being displayed in this thread is truly staggering. If you knew anything at all you would know that since her clients were on probation, there was a medical release of information allowing me to talk to her about it, and in fact it was my job to discuss their sexual histories with her. Besides, disclosing a generic fact, like I did in this thread, is not unethical because I did not disclose any identifying information about the people.
Pay attention. This has been pointed out to you before. This is all we know about him. We don’t know what else he might have done, who else he might have screwed. We have a tiny window into his actions. We know what he did on twelve days out of the year for the last three years. Some people are willing to draw a conclusion about his sexual orientation based on those twelve days a year. From what I’ve seen in other sex addicts, I know that if the Haggard is a true sex addict then this is but a small fraction of the destructive behavior he has engaged in, and if we knew everything he has done we might not conclude that he was gay.
I have no cite for this beyond my own personal experience, which I have already outlined. It was a very poor wording though, as I was describing only guys I personally know who have been to male prostitutes, which, since they have been convicted of sex crimes, are a small and not representative sample of everyone who goes to male prostitutes. They are only representative of people who go to male prostitutes that have also been convicted of sex crimes, which I should have specified.
Perhaps it seems like a man very much in control, but that is only because you have no idea what you’re talking about. Haggard’s own statements indicate that he detested and has been fighting against the part of himself that compelled him to do this. If you read his statements it is clear that he was not in control. When he talks about the part of his life that he has been fighting, most people assume homosexuality, but it could just as easily be sexual addiction.
Because of the poor wording mentioned above. Of course there are.
I can’t give percentages, because I am not aware of any statistics on how many men visit male prostitutes. However, as I will point out for the last fucking time because nobody is listening anyway, I never said Haggard wasn’t gay. The burden of proof is not supposed to be on me, it is supposed to be on the person making the claim. The claim in this thread is that everyone who visits a male prostitute is gay. This is the easiest kind of claim to disprove, because one example of a straight man visiting a male prostitute is enough to disprove it. I tried to provide that example, but the same eagerness to jump to conclusions about Haggard’s sexual orientation led people to jump to the conclusion that I was saying Haggard is not gay. I never said that Haggard is not gay, I just said we don’t have enough information to tell, and provided an example that visiting male prostitutes does not necessarily equal gay. I obviously pushed some pretty sensitive buttons in pointing out that your little theory is wrong, I’m not sure what that’s all about but I’m sure you have your reasons.
I can understand your anger. You made a foolish argument (all men who go to male prostitutes are gay), and you got called on it. Because of the foolish nature of the argument, it only takes one counter example to disprove it.
There is no need to accuse me of doing the very thing you have done, specifically pretend to know information that you do not. I never pretended to know anything, I was just pointing out circumstances from my personal experience that disprove your theory. I never said that they definitely applied to Haggard, I did not have to, all I had to do was show that it is possible for a straight person to visit a male prostitute, which I did.
Your anger should be directed at a mirror for putting forth such a foolish and easily falsifiable theory.
If I know anything at all I know your job, your wife’s job,and how the two interact? Really? Well, I know my own name, so I know something at all. How does it follow that I should know the details of your personal life. Seriously. You have made another dubious claim. Back it up.
Not solely on that. The rest of the story has a bearing as well.
This is called begging the question. Your premise is that he is a sex addict. You can’t prove it by assuming it. It’s a basic logical fallacy, and as such it is to be avoided.
Riiiight. Got it. Based on what we know, we cannot assume he is gay, but based on what we do not know, we can assume he is not.
Which means they have fuck-all to do with Haggard, and your opening statement was unmitigated Bullshit.
“What is bullshit, after all? Mr. Frankfurt points out it is neither fish nor fowl. Those who produce it certainly aren’t honest, but neither are they liars, given that the liar and the honest man are linked in their common, if not identical, regard for the truth.”–Peter Edidin, New York Times
To do this what? This thing you say we have no way of knowing anything about? Either he did it or he did not. If he did not, that’s all you need to say.
Actually, it couldn’t, if by “just as easily” you mean " just as parsinomious." You are left to explain, as you have been asked to over and over, why he would choose such an extraordianary fix for his addiction, when heterosexual sex (or mayonnaise jar sex) would do just as well.
Exactly. Blowing smoke.
No. The claim is that Haggard is gay. No one has claimed that everyone who visits a male prostitute is gay, and unless you can show otherwise, I call bullshit again.
Your initial “example” was to state an opinion about “these guys,” which you now say was “poorly worded.” And rightly so. Kind of like Haggard gave “inconsistent” comments to the press. You know, about knowing Mike Jones, and buying drugs, and immoral sex acts, and stuff like that.
No one has said it is necessarily true that a visist with a male prostitute “equals gay.” It has been pointed out to you in many ways how this case is more complex than “visiting a male prostitute.” You just cannot see it, or have chosen to ignore it.