This just made me cry.
I saw a special on dogs on Discovery channel a while back. They did a segment on ‘show quality’ dogs and the breeding practices to get them that way.
The main point was that they were getting these beautiful dogs by inbreeding them for those qualitiues, and causing them serious health problems as an unintended result. The breeders they were interviewing seemed to have a few screws loose.
Eight years ago our lab/? mix came into our lives as a freebie. Her name is Murphy. Great dog in all the ways I want a dog to be. She has me trained well.
Because she is a great dog, one of my cousins, whom I always adored, decided to get a purebreed ( I think his wife had him by the balls on the purebred stuff.) So, they get a yellow lab. Name her Murphy ( C’mon…how unoriginal can you get?)
The dog was a host of neurosis’: a ritalyn/Paxil/Wellbutrin cocktail might have taken the edge of the nervous breakdown look this dog was always on the verge of jumping into. I’ve never seen a lab so wired.
Our Murphy, whom loves everyone, hated the other Murphy. The poser.
Personally, the only dogs worth that much money are the therapy dogs, K-9’s, and leader dogs. They are worth 10 times that.
I think there are alot of breeders who are essentially dog pimps.
All anecdotal, yes, but every purebred dog I’ve known has had health problems or was fucking looney.
Norwegian Elkhound: Stupid, hip dysplasia, eventually had to be put down from a neuromuscular disorder which caused tetanus in his face, locking his jaw until he was unable to drink.
2 different Boxers: Both crazy in their own way, one bit the neighbor(had never shown any signs of aggresion before)and was euthanized. The second has constant eye infections and cannot learn even the simplest command.
Chow: quite possibly the dumbest mammal, including cattle, I have ever encountered, hip dysplasia, died early from congenital heart failure.
Pekinese(sp?) Constant respiratory infections and breathing problems my cousin described as “allergies.”
And so on. All those phenotypic characteristics and regularities people love so much cannot be achieved without inbreeding. Reputable breeder or no. The gene pool in many purebreds has already been so reduced in the past, checking parentage means nothing. Many breeds are descendants of only a few animals. By founder effect, any genetic disease in these first animals will be carried by their descendants unless they are “outbred.” But all you guys dogpiling on tsarina are absolutely correct, its your money and who the fuck is she, the fucking tyranist bitch, to point out the absurdity of ANYTHING. :rolleyes:
Unfortunately, a huge number of the dogs in shelters were bought from breeders. See, there’s this phenomenon called the backyard breeder, which is almost worse than the puppy mill because we can’t shut them down. Some dipshit with an AKC dog (which means jack shit, I could almost register my cat with the AKC) decides to breed it and sell the pups. Never mind that they know fuckall about bloodlines, or breed standards, or the risks of breeding a dog. Then some other dipshit pays a couple hundred bucks for a badly bred pup that’s often wormy, unsocialized, and barely weaned. Lather, rinse, repeat, ad nauseum.
Somewhere in the middle, Dipshit #1 makes about five thousand calls to the emergency vet because the dog might be in labor, and they don’t know what to do, or what to look for, or when to be concerned. In short, they don’t know nothin bout birthin no puppies, Miss Scarlett. After the purchase, Dipshit #2 is often shocked to discover that the pup has whipworms, 'cause the breeder wormed him. Dipshit #2 is also often frequently dismayed to learn that the pup has parvo, 'cause the breeder vaccinated him. Unfortunately, the breeder dosed the pup for a worm type it didn’t have, and used vaccines that had been improperly shipped and stored and were therefore useless.
I’m telling you, backyard breeders are the fucking bane of my existence.
All the ranting aside,I bitch because I love.
I’m not much of a dog person, but I do have a couple of cats. Both of them are shelter rescues (they cost $50 and $110 each). We were originally planning on getting a Singapura, because all our research has indicated that their temperament is exactly what we want in a cat - active and playful, but slightly less loud and hyper than Siamese. We had arranged to view the cats when a friend of mine who was volunteering at the local shelter asked me to come around and look at their kittens. And who could say no to a face like this? He has a couple of issues from his days as a stray, but we’re working on (and I think we’ve been pretty successful) weaning him from his more anti-social habits. Our first cat has been the picture of health for the seven years we’ve had her, but I know others who have adopted cats and dogs from shelters who haven’t been so lucky.
I talked to a breeder who said that the main reason to buy a purebred from a reputable source (not pet store or backyard) was consistency. Obviously all dogs and cats are different and have their own little habits (looks at Kyoto, Spoiled Kitten Extraordinaire, who likes Coke and beer) but I’d argue that it’s quite responsible to get a breed that is suited to your lifestyle. Shelter puppies and kittens are great, but they can be a great big question mark in terms of eventual size, temperament, and health.
Ideally I’d purchase a cat or dog from these sources, in order of preference:
- Reputable breeder (obviously after a large amount of time researching the breeder, their dogs and puppies, and the breed itself)
- Animal shelter / Stray
(and so far down the list that they aren’t even on the list)
- Backyard breeder (I suppose you might get lucky once in a blue moon)
- Pet store
Unfortunately my cousin is looking to become a backyard breeder, and nothing I can say will change her mind. I love her to pieces, but I could just smack her over the head this time. She has two pomeranians - the female is a mini pom - and she has them running around unneutered in her backyard because they’re too expensive to fix and she figures she can sell the puppies and make some money when the mother gets pregnant. The breeder she bought the mother from warned her that there would be complications if she bred too young and if the father was much bigger than her, but I don’t think it registered with her. They’re absolute hellions now, and I shudder to think what their puppies are going to be like. 
It’s very hard to tell a pet quality newf from a show newf at birth unless there is a an obvious fault, unless you mean you are wanting to get a puppy from parents that have not been shown, which to me would be an irresponsible breeder. There is a standard for Newfs for a reason. They are very common breed up here, and I could not buy a good one for less than $1500. I could get one for for less than that sure, but it would not be a dog I would want.
One of the reasons you see more health problems in pure breds is because there are systems in place to track some of the more common disorders. OFA tracks hips and patellas. Another one is the Canine Eye Registration Foundation (C.E.R.F.). Who tracks mutt disorders? No one as far as I know, but I worked for a vet and saw plenty of unhealthy mixed breeds along with plenty of poorly bred and unhealthy purebreds. Face it, if you put 2 dogs of different breeds together their individual problems don’t magically disappear in their resulting offspring.
I did find one study that OFA recently did on the prevelance of hip dysplasia between pure and mixed breed dogs. The conclusion reached was that there was NO significant difference in the prevalence of HD between sexes or between purebred and mixbred dogs:
OFA Study
Also, in the PBS special mentioned above their was a breeder of Papillions. She is on another list that I am a member of and was extremely disappointed in the show. Anyway, here is her response which has permission to be cross-posted:
I’m really getting tired of being called an “idiot” or “absurd” because I own a *gasp HEALTHY purebred dog who comes from a long line of HEALTHY purebred dogs. He came from a breeder who carefully screens all of her animals and loves what she does. This woman doesn’t make a dime off these dogs.
All breeders aren’t bad no matter what the anti-pet animals rights people would like you to believe.
Really - isn’t the problem that there are no responsible buyers? As long as backyard breeders and puppy mills can find a market, dogs will be bred that way. And buyers will find out that the cwute wittle puppy isn’t very healthy, has strange personal quirks.
In fact, people who want dogs for $300 might be the problem. As with anything, you get what you pay for. I’m in bi-weekly contact with the breeder where I got my puppy. I know all the buyers of the siblings in the litter, and we exchange info and advice through an e-mail list. I’ll be showing the dog for the first time in late March and the breeder pays the fee. So yes, I paid for a pure bred, where both parents had hips and knees x-rayed before breeding, where I can trace the pedigree back and see what merits all his ancestors have for about 20 years. When I picked him up, he’d been to the vet, got all his shots (I had to give the second batch myself @ 12 weeks), with a proper contracts with a ‘warranty’. It’s mandatory to register a dog with the Swedish Kennel Club.
All in all, I feel very secure with my purchase.
Another thing that speaks in favour of high prize tags for dogs is that it’ll give potential buyers a moment of pause. If you buy a dog for 12-1500, then you’re damn well gonna take care of it. It’s just too much money to leave behind if you get tired of it or if you can’t handle it. It’s also something that prevents spur of the moments purchases.
As for the whole pure bred / cross bred debate - that’s been going on for ever and porponents from each side will never meet. I think buying a cross bred dog is taking a chance. A mix between lab and border collie, which the owner gets in order to have a calm BC, might turn out to be a nervous lab instead. But that’s my opinion. I’m aware that there is a risk of inbreeding with all pure breds, which is why it’s so important to be able to check the pedigree.
I’d like to add one more reason to the list, if I may: allergies. My brother has horrible, horrible allergies, and even after years of shots, he still has horrible problems with almost every breed of dog. The only dog that his body has no problems at all with, and that he can share a house with, is our very expensive purebred (A Coton de Tulear). That’s why we bought her. For the record, before my brother was born we had a pound dog, and that’s where I fully intend to get a dog when I’m older.
Actually, the analogue to buying an SUV would be getting be buying a dog from a breed that has violent tendencies just because you think it’s cool.
This thread infuriates me. Maybe the fact that dogs are living, sentient beings makes comparing them to SUVs and necklaces not the best of comparisons?
But hell, whatever. If y’all would rather make a “my money, my decision!” argument than do something about the 7,000 animals our shelter has to kill every year, I suppose I can’t stop you. Your decisions have real consequences, and I’d invite you down to the shelter sometime to see what those consequences are.
One comment:
A no-kill shelter, because they house animals for longer and in closer proximity, is often a WORSE breeder for disease than an open-access shelter. Rather than looking at a no-kill shelter specifically, I’d encourage you to look around at local shelters, ask them questions about how they manage disease control, what vaccinations they give their animals, etc. Ask your own veterinarian which local shelters have the worst problems and which ones tend to adopt out healthy animals. Ask your shelter whether they participate in PetFinder, an online service that incidentally grants each animal adopted from the shelter a free two-month pet insurance program.
No-kill shelters aren’t necessarily worse than open-access shelters, but by no means are they necessarily better, either; look instead to whether the shelter provides good veterinary care.
Daniel
My mom bought an English Bulldog a while ago, from a breeder. She spent about a thousand dollars for her.
Molly was a sweetie and a joy, and didn’t have any health problems. Eventually we bred her and she had the cutest little puppies imaginable.
Unfortunately, bulldogs don’t make very good mothers, so we had to take the puppies away from her. We put the puppies in a light box to keep them warm, with a hot water bottle and soft blankets. Me and my sister took turns bottle feeding them, and we had to help them go to the bathroom, and we cleaned up after them. They were the cutest little things imaginable, and they loved to see us coming.
The people who came and spent a thousand dollars each on those puppies got a great deal. Each puppy was highly socialized, had been fed very well and taken care of, had been checked by the vet several times, and were just the cutest little things you have ever seen.
We hear back from the owners occasionally. A couple of the puppies were shown and had received high marks. All of the owners loved their bulldogs to pieces, knew where they were from, and were going to breed them also.
Much better than shelter dogs or puppy mills! Make sure you know where your dog is coming from and what degree of care it had. Someday I’m going to buy a pug and show her and breed her, because I just loved the experience I had with Molly and her pups.
Bullshit. My buying a purebred from a reputable breeder has fuck all to do with all of the poor animals in shelters. Irresponible people who got a dog for a year and decided that they didn’t have the time anymore or people who didn’t spay/neuter their dogs and dumped the pups or whatever are. I am not personally responsible for a single dog going to a shelter. Every dog that I have ever had has lived a long life with loving care and did not reproduce. You may just as well blame us for having our own natural children instead of adopting a baby from China.
My money/my decision? You’re god damned right my money/my decision. I’ve donated more money to our local shelter over the years than I spent on my dog by the way. I am certain that my monetary donations has saved far more dogs than just taking one dog home every ten years.
Haj
Growing up, my family had a purebreed dauchshaund prior to my arrival, but post-Schultz we had only dogs from the pound (for some odd reason, we always seemed to wind up with dogs with lots of dauchshaund quality… )
Yes, a mutt is a bit of a question. However, if you don’t insist on an extremely young puppy you can make some determinations about possible ancestry, temperment, and health. I wouldn’t walk into a shelter and pick the first animal off the shelf (so to speak), but if you open your eyes and use your brain a little you can find a good companion.
That’s what I’d want a dog for - a companion and friend. Size, ancestry, color, coat, etc. don’t matter much to me. I want a good buddy, and they come in all shapes and sizes. I do have preferences towards terrier mixes and short hairs, but it’s not a hard and fast requirement. So… if I could find that at a local pound to my mind I can’t justify the expense of a purebred.
On the other hand, I don’t begrudge folks spending lots of money on a particular breed if it suits their needs. I DO have a problem with folks who buy an animal purely for status, then discard it when it’s no longer “cool” or they’re bored with it - but that’s a different issue than, say, my friend who desired a dog for protection and wound up with a very nice, even-tempered, non-agressive, well-behaved pit bull. She achieved this wonder by carefully researching breeders, carefully selecting a puppy, paying for both her and the dog to go to formal obedience training, and spending the required sums at yearly vet visits to keep her dog healthy. That’s the way it should be.
The only folks who piss me off are the abusive/neglectful ones who treat dogs like a disposable commodity. 'Nuff said.
Ditto for cats - the two cats I owned were shelter cats. One was nearly starved to death prior to his adoption by my roommate. The other was probably a purebred Russia Blue, but with no papers we could never know - and frankly, we didn’t give a damn. He wasn’t too smart but he was a lovable cat and a great mouser. But if you’re in love with a particular breed more power to you - just, please be a responsible owner.
Now I’m a bird owner, and have been for quite some time. Not only do birds have the same issues as dog and cat breeders - inbreeding, health problems, irresponsible breeders, etc. - but there are major, major issues about taking birds from the wild for the pet trade (I Do Not Approve - with just one exception). A bird is NOT a dog or cat (and frequently costs as much or more than a purebred dog). It’s not even a mammal. A parrot can be a wonderful, wonderful friend - or your worst nightmare. They are NOT domestic animals in the same sense as a dog or cat or sheep or goat or horse. The are tamed, not domestic - each generation much be re-tamed, they revert to feral quite easily, and come equipped with all the insticts of any wild bird. To top it off - there is no safe, easy way to neuter birds.
It pisses me off no end to see folks talking about buying a bird when it is clear from their behavior and conversation they haven’t a clue what they’re getting into - people who want to buy a scarlet macaw as a status symbol, for instance. My god, a full grown macaw can severely injure or even kill an adult human being if mishandled, just as a large dog can. They live as long as we do - you’re essentially adopting a perpetual child that has a good chance of outliving you. They MUST have daily social contact with either other animals or humans or they will go insane, which can lead to viciousness or self-mutilation… This is not an animal you can stick in a small cage and ignore most of the time, trotting it out occassionally to use as a conversation piece.
People who visit are amazed at my little generic lovebirds and cockatiels - they’re friendly, they don’t bite, they like people, they do tricks… How do we get that? By treating them right, making sure their needs - emotional as well as physical - are fulfilled. Which is what ANY pet needs. If my bird comes when I call his name it’s because he wants to come, because he likes and trusts me. And I find that flattering, that this alien little creature wants to spend time with me (indeed, once a bird acquires an affection for you the problem becomes how do you get him off you!). Why do my birds talk? Because they want to - we don’t go to any great lengths to teach them (although we do avoid swearing in front of them). Why do my birds do a particular trick? Because it gets them attention from humans - my birds come up with their own tricks for the most part, we don’t exert great effort trying to teach a particular behavior. Cuteness is rewarded, though, so it tends to re-occur.
I just hate it when I see irresponsible pet owners of ANY sort… these animals don’t deserve to be mistreated. It’s not how much you did or didn’t pay for the pet that counts, it’s how you treat it after you have it in your home.
So why don’t you tell that to the people who made the mess in the first place? I’m not responsible for the 7,000 dogs in your shelter and while I’m sorry they are there, I don’t feel the least built guilty for buying a dog that I waited 5 years to get. And the only time SUV’s came into this discussion was when I mentioned that this thread is taking the same course - someone thinks I don’t NEED something and wants to deny me the right to have it. It has nothing to do with comparing a living animal to a car - you just jumped to that conclusion. :rolleyes:
I suppose when some self-righteous busy-body comes up to you one day and tells you that you don’t NEED something that you love and that you’re an idiot than you’ll just roll over and agree with them? Didn’t think so.
[slight hijack] We have one of those lab/husky mixes (and I didn’t know that they were all that common in Alaska–I am from Ohio) from the pound (in case any one is interested). And while he IS stubborn (goodness gracious, yes), in other respects he is a lovely, well-mannered pup. He trains himself for the most part, and I think he is what people who cross breed labs and huskies are looking for–he has all the best characteristics of both (well, he doesn’t like water at all, and there is the whole stubborn thing) in that he is loyal, friendly, protective, independant, spirited, and just an all around great dog. Plus, he he looks a bit like a big beige wolf, so he is always getting compliments. And except for the stubborn willfulness (big part of the personality, that :)), he is just lovely. All right, I am done with the bragging. Please continue with the argument at hand.
[/slight hijack]
But hell, whatever. If all y’all people who go out and spend money in restaraunts would rather make a “my money, my decision!” argument then do something about the millions of starving Africans who suffer every year, I suppose I can’t stop you. Your decisions have real consequences, and I’d invite you down to Sudan sometime to see what those consequences are.
I could have given the money I spent on my purebred to a shelter, which would have helped dogs. I could have given the money I spent on pizza and booze last night to the Red Cross and eaten something cheap–that would have helped people. But I enjoy food, and I love my purebred dog, so I spend money on those things occaisonally. I guess that makes me an animal hater! :rolleyes:
Now, Far Beit From Me™ to tell you what to name your dog, but it’s Wunderhund. You’ve got the phoenetics right, but the spelling is a scosch off 