You Know Who You Are

The BBQ Pit
21

I respectfully disagree with some of the other posters. I think most bullies DO know what they’re doing. They are assholes who hang with like-minded assholes. How else do you justify things like white supremacy groups? Hatred has a history of feeding off of itself. When people act like jerks and are allowed to get away with it, their actions are legitimized. They can then take things one step farther. I think basketball coach Bobby Knight is a perfect example of this.

I was a fat, ugly kid who got harassed left and right. As an adult, I turned into that guy in the breakroom with his nose in a book. It took a couple of years with a woman psychologist to help me break out a little bit. Most women still treat me like I’m the Green River Killer, but now I’m married to a good woman who loves me and listens to me. I guess my advice is to find someone to talk to. Someone you respect. Someone who truly has your best interest in mind.

22

Just to add the cherry to the top of RickJay’s sundae here, I should point out that it is entirely possible that those of us who suffered the callous indifference of others may have at some time done something callously indifferent to another person which, of course, we would not necessarily now recall.

While I’ve gone out of my way on many occasions to avoid even being perceived as a bully, I’m willing to put my hand up and say “Yes, I almost certainly – albeit unintentionally – have emotionally scarred more than a few people in my lifetime.” Alas, it’s part of that whole “being human” thing… :frowning:

That being said, it doesn’t excuse the deliberate malice, the beatings, the taunts, the myriad ways in which one person can hurt another and does so in order to make themselves feel better. So you’ve had a hard life – you should know what it feels like to be hurt. Don’t do it to someone else.

Boy, I’m in a happy mood today. :rolleyes:

23

Eutychus55

I don’t know if it helps you to feel that you weren’t alone, I’ve noticed you occasionally start threads like this, and don’t seem to post to them very often afterwards.

For me… in third grade, I switched elementary schools because I somehow got accused of being a firebug. (I think I brought dad’s really cool round match case to school and showed it to a buddy or two). So I ended up in a new private open school, with a bunch of kids who had already formed their bonds and I wasn’t part of them.

I didn’t get picked on as much as ignored.

I was diagnosed as dyslexic, so I got put into a special class for 2 hours out of the school day and that got me labeled as a dummy during the rest of the day.

My family moved after my 6th grade year, so I figured, Ok, junior high, everyone gets a new start, and maybe I’ll find a way to fit in. The new school district did the elementary, middle school, and high school pattern instead, so I got to join in the middle again. I tried to make friends, I had one guy I knew that I saw during the activity period (I chose to swim) who’s way of getting to know me was to punch my leg as I swam by and try and give me a charley horse. My best friend in homeroom teased me for the 1st couple months by not telling me his name. (The homeroom teacher knew him from the year before and never called his name) I finally got to know what it was like to be bullied when a kid a year younger, and about 50 pounds bigger decided I was prime material and started using me as a regular punching bag. If I even thought of fighting back I got to know his big brother, my age, and bigger and meaner.

In high school, I tried hanging with the theater types, who shunned me as not being artsy enough, the debate crowd, who shunned me cause I didn’t argue well.

It wasn’t till late in my freshman year that I found the computer room.

I found the particular group of misfits that I actually fit in with.

How did I make it through these difficult times?

One of the things I discovered when they were working on my dyslexia was reading. The Three detectives, the Hardy Boys, and Tom Swift were my buddies. I discovered the science fiction section and the Tor series, Azimov, and Anthony.

In Middle school, to avoid being beaten up, I started riding my bike to school, or walking.

So, while there are still a vast number of people in this world that I dun with words and phrases very similar to yours from time to time, there are also people like those on this board. People who are happy to read my words and to write back. People who share some of my interests, or simply understand that joy of knowing people with diverse interests and experiences.

So keep exorcising your demons here, listen to suggestions offered, and try one or two of them. And never forget. You have friends, you are loved, and you will be loved in all the ways you need to be loved in time.

-Doug

24

In a less vehement way, I have to go along with RickJay. I’ve been on both sides of that divide, and neither side is easier.

When I was in Junior High, just recently returned to the States after some years abroad, fat and oddly-accented, I got the snot kicked out of me in school. I may as well have had TARGET tattooed on my forehead. Add to that my growing awareness that my sexuality might be a bit outside the narrow norm, and you’ve got an ideal recipe for a teenage suicide and/or sociopath.

When I entered high school, I decided to say the hell with it. I became a class clown, worked on punchlines, even learned to juggle. It took a while, but I recruited outcasts from the cliques in school, and soon was part of a bizarre uber-clique which made a big impact on the school throughout my junior and senior year. I even got the coveted “Most Unique” listing in my senior yearbook. Hey, at least I coveted it.

The weirdest discovery I made during that time was that it’s incredibly difficult to make the opening gesture of friendship to anyone. Simply going up to someone and saying something nice, or asking them to join in an activity, is one of the toughest things in the world to do. I don’t care how popular you are, how well respected, how self-confident: when you put out the hand of friendship, you’re just a scared little kid saying “Um, we could go play…”

But every time I’ve done it, it’s been worth the risk.

So, Euty… I do feel for you. I know that feeling, not just from the past, but from my life now as well. Friendship involves risk and generosity and bravery, from both ends of the equation. If you want in, you’ve got to ask, somehow. They’re just as scared of you as you are of them.

Oh, and to add to RickJay’s list of human trauma, I used to know the best-looking girl in high school. Gretchen. Stunning girl, witty, intelligent, an all-around knockout. Never had a date, all the way through high school. Got voted best-looking, but nobody could bring themselves to ask her. I used to do the morning announcements with her my senior year, and we had a blast together. I had no idea she had a crush on me, and it must have hurt her that I never seemed to respond in kind. But, of course, at that point I couldn’t tell anyone I was gay…

And the human saga continues.

25

What Rickjay said, and then some.

Geez, I can’t believe the stench of self-pity in this thread. Grow up and get over it, people! Life was tough growing up? Too bad.

You want to try hard childhood? My dad died when I was three and my mother married an evil, abusive man who terrorized and beat her and all of us kids, especially me. For 12 years, that SOB made my life a living hell, plus the frequent moving (seven schools in ten years) made it impossible for me to make friends. In addition, there was the dealing with being gay as a kid that made me keep my inner life a secret. Yeah, I got bullied, too. you know what I did? I learned to fight. I’ll tell you what, clock a bully once and he’ll leave you alone. Submit, and you’ll always be bullied.

So, I guess I should sit and moan how unfair life has been? Bull! The past is over and out of my control, but I can make the present work for me. I have friends at work and I have a happy social life. I lost my straight virginity at 13 and my gay virginity at 14. I’m single at the moment, but I’m optimistic that the right guy is just around the corner; it’s just a matter of being ready.

If you want women to flock to you, make yourself attractive. Hit the gym and buff up, get contacts instead of glasses, get a more flattering haircut, and lose the facial hair.

If the emotional legacy of your youth is hampering your life, use your health insurance and get thee to a therapist.

I have a great deal of sympathy for people trying to overcome their problems. I have ZERO sympathy for whiners who would rather complain and feel sorry for themselves rather than make positive changes.

26

The only flame I see around here is coming from the torch I now carry for RickJay. Bravo.

As some of you also have added, quite often we’re on both sides of this particular fence.

Me, I was mocked because I was fat, wore glasses, had braces, was smart, and had no athletic ability whatsoever. However, I realize that I was not above making the occasional judgement about the “stupid jocks”, the “bitchy cheerleaders” or Max who had terrible acne and dressed bad. It’s hard for me to realize I’m not really all that much better than anyone who picked on ME back then.

So if we realize that probably no one is immune, wouldn’t the real issue be…

HOW DO WE MAKE IT STOP???

27

Some people in your position just stay miserable all their lives.

Some turn to drugs or alcohol.

Some kill themselves.

Some take a weapon to their school or workplace and try to get back at everyone. These people get on the news.

Some, luckily, find support among people online and rant on message boards.

Through all of this, I don’t see enough people talking about changing the way we treat people in our society. Some people get all fired up about it, but they only work in the areas of lawsuits and political rights and protests. Law is one way to change society, but I don’t think it’s gonna do the whole job.

What we need is to stop being shits to people. We need to raise our kids to not be shits to people. Period. We need to dole out a bit more patience, tolerance, friendship, and kindness to other people. Those “other people” include the geek who doesn’t shower enough. The kid who sucks so bad at little league. The girl who is overweight. The checkout clerk who can’t count change. The old lady in the car ahead of you who has had her blinker on for 3 miles. The person who annoys you by invoking religion at every opportunity in their everyday speech. The poster who asks about words ending in -gry. It’s not just “those mean people” who make others feel alienated and unappreciated. I think a lot of us do it, too. Even me, who spent a lot of my awkward, too-brainy adolescence being on the receiving end of the treatment Euty cites.

Thanks for the reminder, Euty.
Ew, I just reread that and made myself sick with the sanctimious, pollyannaish tone of that–but I do mean it. passes out barf bags And by the way, I still reserve the right to jump all over the ass of people who are begging for it.

28

Excellent post RickJay.

When I was in grade school I was always one of the smart kids.

Now, in university I am incredibly mediocre. It is a nasty feeling to see other people that are way smarter than you and know there’s not a damn thing you can do about it. Most of them aren’t arrogant, but they have this way about them (or it might be yourself projecting) that seems to say “we’ll get along just fine, but it is implicitly understood that I’m better than you”.

I can’t imagine how terrible it is for kids who feel that way. They don’t have the emotional tools to deal with these feelings. I look back on all those snide comments I made and just shudder, I think I had the easier ride back then.

29

Euty, i hear you. It’s shit.

But i have to say i go with RickJay here. The whole whole world hears you. Some louder than others, but everyone struggles. We’re all human beings and there isn’t some magical quality that the “cool” people have that we don’t have. They’re just as frightened as the rest of us. Afraid of being discovered as the neurotic/weedy-ass/uncool/dull/stupid person they think/suspect they are inside. Some people cover it up better than others, but it’s there.

goboy - congratulations on overcoming your problems but it’s not a competition y’know. That doesn’t make you better.

Fran

30

Damn, that wasn’t meant to sound as nasty as it did. I didn’t mean it to sound nasty, i promise.

Fran

31

Upon thinking about it, I believe my previous statement was pretty myopic. I feel stupid that I suggested that bully types don’t have the capacity to understand that they’re hurting others. After all, I do believe that it’s being hurt in the first place that causes people to lash out…that gives them the feeling that putting someone ELSE down makes THEM Feel better. And who really expects a 10 year old to have the self-awareness necessary to understand why he/she is doing this?

I’m firmly in the “anti-self pity” camp. But that’s not to say that a little ranting and raving about your situation isn’t healthy once in awhile.

-L

32

I am sorry if my meaning was misunderstood. I did not intend to come across as ‘high horse-sitting’ or ‘superior to you all because I’ve suffered!’. What I did intend it to be was merely a show of support and/or camaraderie from one dork to another. Maybe I need to re-evaluate the tone of my posts before submitting them.

** RickJay** brings up an valid point in his post. There are many, many bullies who are only doing so to protect themselves, or because they need the self-esteem boost, or a myriad other reasons. I completely agree. And I think it sucks.

But I’d like to counter with this:
There are also as many bullies who are doing it * just because they can*. Many of them do not know the pain they are causing, and many do not care.

To expand on my comment re: those who bully vs. those who are bullied:
I do feel sorry for those who bully. Those bullies who do so without knowing the pain they cause seem to me to be lacking in sensitivity to their fellow human beings. A lack of empathy, an incapacity for compassion I guess you could say.

While many bullies have reasons (I hesitate to say ‘excuses’) for their behavior, I believe just as many do not. Just as not everyone crumbles and becomes a recluse because of being bullied, so also not every bully has a terrible home life, or bad skin, or a sixth finger on which to lay blame.

Again, let me say that self-pity was not the intention of my post. A little support was all I meant. I have grown up and gotten over it. But I can empathise (sp) with Euty, and I do not see anything wrong in doing so.

I also empathise with anyone who has been mistreated, or abused, or emotionally hurt. Perhaps I’m wrong, or living in a fantasy, but I do not like to see anyone suffering, in any way and try to be compassionate with all people.

But this is all just my opinion, feel free to set me ablaze.

[after preview] Cranky is on the money when she says

All the hollering at each other here really comes to naught. What we need to do is try to make ourselves, as a society, better. Maybe then the need for OP’s like Euty’s would be less.

(Now there’s an arrogant sounding statement for ya, RickJay :wink: )

33

That wasn’t the point of my post. I was using my life as an example of being able to overcome adversity. If I can do it, other people can, too. I have always believed that every problem has a solution and that any action is better than no action.

My heart goes out to Euty and others who feel like outsiders. Just remember that living well is the best revenge.

34

Actually, goboy, I’d disagree with you on that last point. Restoring yourself is the best revenge. The reward of it is living well.

When I left high school, I had a lot of ideas about who I was and what I could do. Most of those ideas were dead wrong, stuffed or beaten into me by my parents or by my peers. I’ve spent a lot of years relearning who I am and what I really can do.

I can actually have a healthy relationship with a woman. I’ve been in a serious relationship with one woman for four years now; I have plenty of other women that I actually consider close friends. All this despite what happened in Junior High.

I know that I can actually take care of myself and survive without my parents constantly watching over me. All this despite everything my mother said to me when I was young.

I have a decent job that pays decent money- I ain’t rich, but I can afford what I need and have some left over for what I want. All this despite everything my father said to me when I was young.
I am a functional person who enjoys his life and handles himself well, and who does some really cool things. Whatever Hell I went through is over, and I’ve exorcised most of the demons. I know people who went through less and can’t say that.

To those who leave themselves in the box that their peers constructed for them years ago: your tormentors have left. Some of them left a very long time ago. And they’ve left the door to the cage wide open. I realize that it’s very comfortable in your cage. You’ve grown to fit into it, and moving beyond it seems a scary prospect. But you can do it. I did it. goboy did it. You don’t have to.

But I’ll give you this tidbit- once you do get out, you’ll be amazed at the boxes some of your peers are still stuck in.

John

35

I spent most of my elementary and half my junior high grades as the target of the bullies. Why? I was smaller and smarter than them- so obviously, I deserved to be miserable. I refuse to accept that the reason they did it was because they, themselves, were being made miserable by others- that’s too pat and PC an answer. I firmly believe that it’s an evolutionary function- drive out those whom are different from the rest of the tribe.

That said, I always felt sort of an outcast in high school. I was certain that nobody knew who I was, or cared. Imagine my surprise at the ten-year reunion when I found out that EVERYONE knew who I was, and remembered my name- even those whose names I couldn’t remember if you held a gun to my head.

That was a good feeling.

36

Both side. Well, three sides, now, since I am no longer the little kid who got skipped ahead or the maniac who stabs people in the bathroom. Without going into extensive details that I doubt anyone really cares about, let me say that all sides of this discussion have valid points.

Sometimes the tormentors feel (or felt) just as much pain as they now inflict.
Sometimes they are unaware of how their actions affect you, but sometimes they know all too well.
Sometimes a bully is desperately seeking a sense of control over at least one fragment of the chaos. But that can quickly become a habit, too. If you only have one coping mechanism, use can become abuse quite quickly. At some point, it ceases to become important whether the abuser is acting out of pain or malice. At some point, the abuser (at least this abuser) probably doesn’t know either.

I would like to say one thing, though. Something addressed to the “grow up and get over it” crowd.

Human beings feel pain. Human beings express pain. It is not always the prettiest aspect of the human condition. So what? Reading a thread is about the least coersive method of human interaction imaginable. You aren’t locked in a room with a whining 3 year-old. You clicked into a thread and started reading a grown man’s expression of remembered and recurring isolation.

We do ourselves no service as a community if we cannot allow a man to say “I have felt pain” without criticizing his choice of expression.

37

On the face of it, this is a supportive statement and I understand (now) what you were trying to say. HOWEVER, I have to say that I have heard this same sort of example used in the most negative ways possible, to deny help to people, to justify doing crappy things to people, to excuse not addressing an ongoing problem.

Give me any set of adverse circumstances, and we could find an anecdotal example of an amazing person who made it despite the obstacles. The kid who makes it Yale from a shitty school. The doctor who grew up in a rat-infested apartment. This is the stuff that Oprah and Ladies Home Journal can’t get enough of. It’s important to know about those stories and celebrate those people, but does that mean those examples become the benchmark for all? Do we have to insist that everyone aim for superhero status? Why can’t we say, “We can do better than this. We can change those circumstances. We can extend support to the people who are suffering.”

I’m all for The Little Engine That Could, and pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps, etc., but christ, not everyone has the unique sets of gifts and strengths to keep chugging along. That’s when I say Fuck the Chicken Soup for the Soul story, let’s try to FIX this. And it’s also why my porcupine quills go up when someone says “I had it worse than you, yet I made it, so don’t whine so loud.”

38

Euty, I don’t know your opinion of me, but I consider you something of a friend. And I think I can say that Fenris is probably right, that your coworkers think you don’t want to go to Hooters. I used to be like you, thinking the worst of others, and only recently realized that I was lonely BECAUSE I PUSHED OTHERS AWAY, either consciously or because I thought they didn’t want to be with me. Preemptive strikes, shutting down communication with people before they have a chance to do it to you, is a BAD IDEA. They aren’t in fifth garade anymore, either, and most people turn out to NOT be jerks! Maybe that’s obvious to the better-socialized Dopers (is that an oxymoron? :wink: ), but it was a HELL OF A REVELATION TO ME!

I know you’ve been conditioned to not be outgoing, but maybe you should take some small steps in that direction. You’d be amazed how well, “Hey! Mind if I tag along?” works! And after a few times, stop asking or waiting for an invitation. (Real quote, said in a testy voice: “I didn’t invite you because you are a regular and shouldn’t NEED an invitation, you paranoid freak!”)

I am going to take an exception with this Liver Love Feast: chicken livers are SO much better than beef liver! I’ll be over here with some deep-fried ones with hot sauce.

39

Sorry for inserting random stats, but in a recent study, 81% of middle school students admitted to engaging in at least 1 bullying behaviour in the past 30 days.
We all do it to each other, apparently.

(I’d give the cite, but it’s not on the internet)

40

Which is exactly what I was saying. It is not unreasonble to offer useful suggestions to fix perceived problems. I’m not denying Euty’s pain, but I am also not going to say, “there, there, the world is mean.” Too many people wallow in suffering instead of taking the necessary measures to solve their problems.
Pain is real, whether it be psychic or physical. If you hold on to the pain, however, instead of trying to eliminate its source, then you lose my sympathy.