I was assuming we were going ahead with the dossier reveals. The only reason I haven’t is that I am #3 on the list and #1/#2 haven’t posted yet. When did revealing dossiers fall by the wayside?
Ive travelled with royalty in torn jeans and tshirt aliens steal my socks. apollo landings were hollywood. i memorized d hn thd dictionararary.
I haven’t yet decided against revealing. I just have this nagging worry I’m overlooking something obvious.
I’ll decide in a few hours (say about 7pm GMT) and let people know.
im posting by phone thd intererting thing about a pure vanilla game is how exposed we are. dio is town like me. many are nnt
I’m still not keen on the Dossier reveal idea. If Diomedes can demonstrate the feasibility of trapping scum by a dossier reveal, then I’ll change my mind; but my feeling is the game design would be created to prevent such things from happening. If dossier reveals out scum, then what would be the point of playing?
Part of the reason I feel this way is due to the postings NAF, mtgman, storyteller and I have had regarding… some other game. We had been running on the notion that town had drifted away from the core of mafia by becoming too reliant on power roles and night actions rather than post analysis and behavioral evaluation to catch scum. I was under the impression that this game was a ‘back to basics’ game, which is why I signed up. All my blathering doesn’t really speak to whether we should or should not reveal dossiers, but I think everyone should know that NAF and mtgman were thinking when they created the game.
With that in mind, I’ll explain why I’m against dossier reveals.
The main pro-reveal reason given so far is that we can use the reveals to catch scum. I do not believe this to be true. I don’t know it to be false, but I can’t imagine the game being designed in such a way that mass claims would out scum. Something has to be there that prevents such a thing from working. Also, someone stated that mass reveals won’t break the game a a reason to do so. In my mind, that is not a reason to reveal; quite the opposite actually. For all we know ‘not breaking the game’ means mass reveals only hurts town a bit. We need to make sure that revealing helps town.
Things that could screw up a dossier analysis to find scum:
- Game designed with townies having scummy looking dossiers
- Game designed with moderator supplied fake dossiers
I think we need to understand how we should treat death post information alongside dossier information. Then I think we will be in a better position to understand how dossier reveals (or no reveals) will impact how the game develops.
How I (sachertorte) understand the dossier system, and what this means for Day One:
Santo Rugger is dead.
HockeyMonkey interprets Santo Rugger’s death post as indicating the killer shares an attribute with HockeyMonkey.
So what should we do with this information? How do we interpret it? What do we do? We can’t lynch HockeyMonkey for this because she could be town who just happens to share an attribute with Santo Rugger’s killer. But we can’t exonerate her because she could be clever scum.
My fear is that full dossier information will serve as a distraction for the town.
on preview:
I think storyteller is remembering the same discussion with NAF and mtgman as I am.
regarding no-lynch:
With 18 alive and 5 scum, the game ends when town mislynches 4 times, or correct lynches 5 times. One no-lynch still affords us 4 mislynches. So at some point in the game we can no-lynch once without adverse effects.
dossier reveals:
Why are we assuming that dossier reveals has been agreed to? We had a very quiet weekend. I don’t think everyone has chimed in. I feel steamrolled about this.
I should point out that in my Mafia: the Conspiracy game, all the Town truthfully revealing wouldn’t have automatically lost it for them, simply because the three other Sides would have still been playing against each other. The global reveal would have made it hard for the Town to win, but easily possible.
The primary reason I feel safe revealing our Dossiers is the slight advantage that’s been built into the game for the Scum. If the net effect of the Dossiers helps the Scum, then the Town will need to play extremely well in order to win. So the question for me is: should we reveal piece-meal or all at once?
The piece-meal approach 1) prevents us from seeing all data, making analysis more difficult, 2) lets the Scum have plenty of time and examples to make good lies in their Dossiers, 3) gives the Scum the advantage of having more information than us (since they’ll undoubtedly tell each other their own Dossiers). Revealing all at once 1) gives us an almost complete picture of the Dossiers, 2) forces the Scum to lie now with less information, 3) gives everyone time to look for any pattern in the Dossiers that will reveal Scum.
The problem with previous games is that the Town tends not to look for underlying motives but at superficial tells or disagreements. And then depend on being saved by either a few power roles or the scum making stupid mistakes. We won’t have that luxury this game (I’m not going to depend on the scum making stupid mistakes, either).
I don’t expect the Dossiers will help us until closer to the end of the game. So I agree that over-emphasis on them at this point is likely to be unhelpful. But we need to make all the Dossiers public now in order to minimize the manipulation the Scum can try.
How do you know that dio is town like you?
Is zuma posting drunk or via phone? Looks the same to me. 
To everyone unsure about revealing Dossiers: We have three distinct choices here,
- We all reveal our Dossiers soon.
- We slowly reveal our Dossiers as we get killed.
- We don’t reveal our Dossiers, even when we’re killed.
We could use a combination of the above, but that would mostly muddle our efforts.
I think we should go with choice 1; see my reasoning give earlier. Those of you who don’t like choice 1 need to give reasons why you prefer choice 2 or 3. It’s not enough to say our reasons for choice 1 are not convincing. Make a case for your own choice: do we slowly reveal with our deaths, or not even then?
I personally am behind a full reveal now. This means we will have something to check against when we get death scene reveals. OK scum will probably doctor their dossiers, but this by itself may make them stand out. If for example all individual staements - “I felch goats” or whatever appear a certain number of times, and we have people with statements bucking that trend, then we have a candidiate population for lynching. Anything which betters our odds as opposed to a random lynch (assuming we have no strong leads on a given day) is OK in my book. Lets get the info and start data mining.
As for voting: I want to place a vote, but I’d like to see more discussion about the Dossiers. Specifically, why delayed or no reveals is better than a mass reveal now.
I’m almost thinking one of the purposes of the Dossiers is to divert us from unproductive r##### votes. (Censored to avoid bring up that disaster.) Because I think scum and town have a fundamental difference over the advantages of the revelation of Dossiers, we can look for “funny” arguments from Scum over reasoning about the Dossiers.
Note: I’m posting a bunch now because I’ll be too busy for much of today to check back in. I hope there’s some juicy discussions to read when I get back.
Sorry for the lack of participation over the weekend. I tend to only surf the dope at work, so I’m a bit behind.
As far as the dosiers go, if they are going to be revealed by everyone, I think it needs to be done before nightfall. There’s already alot of info out there that the mafia will be able to talk about tonight (meaning the game ‘tonight’ that will happen in a few days). After that, they will likely have enough info to come up with a believable and not scummy looking dossier.
I can’t see a reason not to do a mass reveal, but like others have said, that doesn’t mean that there isn’t one.
I’m torn on the no lynch idea as well. The mob hits are guarenteed to kill a good guy, at least with the lynches, we have a chance to take out mob. I opposed to straight out guessing at who to lynch, but if we can find someone who appears to be scum, I think it’s worth a shot.
Re: Dossiers
I really don’t think that the moderators would design the game such that a full reveal of dossiers will give us a bead on all the scum. I think that the dossiers are just a fun aspect of the game…a little extra tidbit to figure out. Revealing the dossiers upfront is neither going to hurt or terribly help us. What it will do is allow us to move on and get to the nitty gritty that is Mafia - analysis of players actions and motivations.
Re:** No Lynching**
I can’t think of any reason right now that not lynching someone will be beneficial to the town. When we kill someone, we get confirmation of their actions and motivations which in turn can help us in analyzing the interactions with other players. The disgruntleds are going to kill every night. The only way we have to kill them is with a lynch. We don’t have any fancy night actions to take them out or block them. We HAVE to lynch someone everyday because a chance of lynching scum is better than no chance.
Re: **Diomedes **
It is not impossible that Dio has figured out some of the dossier puzzle, because I have too. There is quite a bit of information that has already been revealed. I would caution that doing any public analysis before everyone reveals will be detrimental. The disgruntleds are going to have to either lie or tell the truth in their dossier. If we start doing analysis on the information we have already, the scum can come up with better lies. Please don’t share what you think you know until we at least have a large majority of the dossiers to deconstruct. That being said, again, I don’t think the dossiers are the key to winning, and if you do go ahead and share, it won’t be that big a deal.
On preview and re-reading this, it seems to counter my first point, but I hold both points of view. The dossiers are a factor in the game, but not a game-breaking one. I like solving puzzles and mysteries so I am interested in the dossier aspect of the game. I don’t think that solving the dossier puzzle is going to hand us all the scum, but I really want to have a go at solving it. I’m trying to ignore it as a major factor of the game, but still work the puzzle. Does that make any sense at all?
Re: zuma
I’ve noticed that I share some dossier tidbits with other players and have no idea what it means. I doubt that it is as obvious as mafia and town share no characteristics. If that were the case, it would be fairly simple to solve the game. Unless the mafia lie - like they likely will. Eeesh, I don’t know.
I’m leaning towards a mass reveal before nightfall, so we can figure out if it will help us or not. I can’t see it helping the mafia at all.
I’ve noticed that there appears to be very little overlap in the dossiers that have been revealed. Maybe they won’t tell us anything at all.
I’ve been reading along, although I still feel way out of my league, but figured I should at least contribute a stance on the issue of dossier reveals or not. So, I put my vote in for going head and telling what we know about ourselves. I understand that I have no clue what I’m talking about, however I wanted everyone to know that I’m trying to keep up and I do have an opinion on this matter.
Oh, and before anything can be discerned from what I’m about to ask, please remember that I am completely new to this and I’m just wondering about something much like Dopers do about everything. Therefore, can you vote to lynch yourself? Thanks for the help.
I’ve noticed that I have two posts nearly an hour apart with exactly the same 1st three words :smack:
Stupid non edit rule!
Was this a question you wanted a mod answer on or…
While I’d be fine with going ahead with the reveal system that was put in place, I’d prefer it one variation were put into play – I’d very much like to see faithfool reveal her dossier ASAP.
With the early suspicion that was placed on her, I’d think it prudent to get hers out in the open.
I disagree. We randomly ordered the reveals for a reason.
Sorry NAF. I didn’t even think about making that an official question, but was just throwing it out there. Since you’re here though, would you mind answering after all? Thanks so much for being so prompt.
As to Hal’s suggestion, I don’t mind at all. Everyone simply please let me know what I’m to do.