Met woman, let’s call her Allison, asked Allison out, and she declined, saying she has given up on dating anyone. However, we’ve become friends and we talk. She’ll email me something brief like “What’s up?” and I’ll usually email back or occasionally call her. She never calls me but seems glad to talk. I have since decided that we’re good as friends but the dating thing probably wouldn’t have worked for either of us.
Months after I asked her out, she mentioned trying an on-line dating service and getting bizarre (probably pervy) responses.
She seems to want me to date her friend, let’s call her Betty, whom I think is attractive. However I know there are deal-breakers there for Betty, and
Allison knows it. Complicated, but I said to Allison, “If Betty says she won’t date X, and she already knows I’m X, how could it work?”
I thought Allison and I were good…if she is thinking of dating again, she didn’t ask me, so maybe she just didn’t want to date me, which works for me. I was content with how things were.
There was a party at Allison’s place Saturday night. I found myself talking to her and four other women. Talking about relationships, Allison said, “Men are more dramatic than the women,” and she brought up a situation that occurred with her refusing a mutual acquaintance’s advances. I knew him, then he disappeared, then I met her. So I assume it actually happened, but I didn’t know her at the time. Knowing the guy in question it doesn’t surprise me but I can’t verify because I wasn’t there.
Yet then she injected my name into this, saying she was on the phone “all the time” getting calls from guys saying “Stay away from” this guy or that. She acted like I called her all the time, that I was helping to create the drama, etc. :eek::rolleyes::mad::dubious::smack:
I replied, “I think you need a CAT scan…” She didn’t back off the story, though.
Short story long, it seemed like a variation of cock blocking. It isn’t like I was “making time” with one of the other women in this convo when this happened. Honestly, there was one woman who kinda interested me but it was very mild and I don’t think I betrayed that to anyone there. We were all just talking, although I guess it’s possible that Allison, being “one of the girls” was privy to something I didn’t know.
In a brief moment quasi-alone, she asked, “Are you mad at me?” I thought it was ironic that I, the alleged drama king, would refuse the opportunity to ruin the party for the rest of the invited guests. The mere mention of someone promoting “drama” is anathema among singles and the stigma probably doesn’t wash off easily. But I said, “No, we’re fine.”
Just before I left, when it was just me and one other woman and Allison, Allison mentioned that she was going to call me to say that if I wanted to stay at her place(45-60 minutes from home and there was bad weather for driving), I could bring my toothbrush and stay over if driving were too dangerous. “But I didn’t want you to get the wrong idea.”
There’s more. I don’t have the energy or inclination to type it. As I was driving home, I thought, ‘Sometimes people drop a bomb on you. This was more like carpet bombing.’ I wonder if
A) she’s goaltending for Betty
B) she wants me to ask her out
C) she’s just fucking nuts
She has emailed me twice since the event, very nonchalant and unrelated stuff, doesn’t give any indication of what went down. Twice in two days is about 10x-20x the norm. I’ve ignored both.
I don’t know where the fuck this is going. Advice, comments, ideas, reads, whatever are welcome. Hate to lose her as a friend but it really ruined my Sunday. My current thought is to avoid her like the plague because I think that as good a friend as she can be, the potential downside is too great.
How about you’re fucking nuts? I’m not saying it’s necessarily so, but if you call her and she never calls you, it’s an option to consider. Depending on the nature of the calls, she may consider that she’s been trying to politely to let this “relationship” die, but you won’t ket it go.
But of your preferred options, I go for C. She’s fucking nuts.
I think first of all, the fact that you felt you couldn’t tell her you were angry means you aren’t very good friends, and second, she (according to your perception of events) exaggerates the facts to create drama, sometimes drama that paints you badly, which you seem to want to avoid (and in my opinion makes her mildly dishonest/untrustworthy). I’d stay away from her, personally, especially since that’s your strong inclination already.
FTR, I might call her once every ten days or two weeks. At no point did I ever get the idea she didn’t want me to call, but I did let it lapse. We trade emails mostly.
After the initial refusal, we’ve talked about other things. E.g. we’re both interested in photography. It wasn’t like either of us were flirting; it was usually more like two friends catching up on how the week went etc. As I said, she seems to hope I get together with her friend so I assumed she was cool with being friends. Allison said Betty asked her about me and Allison replied, “He’s one of my favorite people.” So I don’t think I was wearing out my welcome.
Comments like that made me wonder if there might be something more she was feeling but like I said, she had already turned me down. When I asked her, I wasn’t burning with desire…I thought she was interesting, and a date might illuminate more whether it was worth pursing. Even as we became friends I wasn’t secretly pining away for her…I liked things the way they were because I saw some real differences (e.g. how she attributes most things to “God’s will”). I just figured that if she was dropping hints, like telling me about looking for dates on line = I’m ready to date now (?), that wasn’t enough to disregard what she’d already told me.
Hmm, possibly. I’m very non-confrontational, anyway. I guess I can’t say that I know if it was the first time she painted me badly, but it was the first time she painted me badly right in front of me. But even if I were confrontational, I wouldn’t trash the hostess’s party.
Now I think, ‘Maybe I could have taken her aside and expressed myself…but why?’ I mean, if she doesn’t get why what she was doing was off base, what point is there in trying to explain it to her? I mean, don’t you expect people to be grown up and somewhat hip? If they aren’t, what are the odds you’re going to train them, bring them up to speed?
And if she does get it, then it was deliberate and I’m just wasting my breath.
I understand your desire not to make a public to-do of it, but if you never tell people they’ve done something hurtful or inappropriate, they never know what needs to be corrected in their behavior. The fact that some people might not act on that information and change doesn’t diminish the importance of receiving feedback from other people. I’d want to know, so I could reevaluate my behavior and clarify if it was a misunderstanding or apologize if I was in the wrong. I do expect people to be grown up and somewhat hip, but I don’t expect them to be mind-readers or infallible. And if it is deliberate, you might have wasted your breath but at least now you know not to waste any more of your time on her.
I probably wouldn’t have gotten into it with her at the party either, but I’d talk to/contact her privately about it sometime afterward.
WAG she sort of likes you, but only when someone else is showing interest. Maybe because she only wants what she can’t have or what is popular, or maybe it just reminds her that you’re attractive. Or maybe she doesn’t want you at all but still doesn’t want anyone else to have your attention – too common a character trait to be called crazy. Speaking of drama, the ‘Go out with my friend’ set-up is a classic high school move, often pulled by the people who liked you but didn’t realize it themselves.
The ‘cock blocking’ conversation sounds to me not like she was making you look bad but like she was showing the other women how close you were.
But I really, really mean that WAG. No idea what you or her are like, just random guesses based on past experiences and a head full of stereotypes.
I agree it’s a common trait but disagree it aint crazy. IT’S FREAK’N CRAZY!! GRR!!
I too expressed a romantic intrest in a female friend. She didn’t feel the same way about me but that was cool, we remained close friends anyway.
Only a few months into our friendship, I thanked OG that she wasn’t interested in me as it became quite clear that we would NOT be good together as a romantic couple. But man, did we ever click as friends!
Anyway, I can remember several occasions where we would be at a party or what not and she would be hanging all over me. Not unusual for her but she normally reserved that type a thing for more intimate type settings, like if it was just me and her watching TV or a few of our main core friends all sitting around playing board games.
But yeah, sometimes when she would see me chatting up some new interest; she would come over there throw her arms around me and start talking me up.
If you were an outside observer to all this and didn’t know us; it would be REAL easy for you to get the imression that we were an item.
Most of the time, when she did this, I never really cared; as most of the women she was trying to “block” me from really didn’t set off any whistles for me.
Until, that is, one night we were all up at a club. I was sitting at a table when a friend of mine introduced me to this woman that DID spark my interest. Big time.
Anyway, my lady friend sees this, comes over there and sits on my lap and tries to start a conversation with me. (Completely ignoring the girl I was talking to) I told crazy girl: “Hey could you get off my lap please? I like this girl and I don’t want her to think we’re together.”
Boy did she ever get pissed at me for saying that. So much so she caused a scene.
My dream girl quickly lost interest after that.
Me and crazy girl slowly grew apart since that event and are no longer friends. It’s a shame too, I still miss her but I sure don’t miss the craziness. Not by a long shot.
There are women (and men, although in my experience it isn’t as common) who will try to replace a boyfriend with a male friend until they finally find someone they actually like enough to date, at which point they will drop their male friend. I dislike this because the woman is using the man’s good feelings towards her to keep herself from being lonely, and as an ego boost, without caring enough about her friend to keep him around after she gets what she really wants.
The cockblocking is to keep you free and available for her to use you to keep herself from being lonely. This is not because she has deeper feelings for you.
One of my female friends would tell other people lies about me so they would stop liking me, so I wouldn’t have any friends and would be available for her all the time. She would drop me like a hot rock if she did find a guy to date, though. Took me a while to figure this out (I was like 14 years old) but after I did I found other friends.
I doubt they do this premeditatively, but I believe it’s the rationale.
ETA: I’m not male, but some people will also replace boyfriends with their girl friends until something better comes along.
I understand where you’re coming from. Like I said I didn’t want to type out the whole thing. There were two or three other issues that arose, hence my ref to carpet bombing. I mean, we’ve all slipped or had words come out our mouths differently than intended. This seemed more like a multi-front attack than an isolated skirmish and it was too sustained for her to claim an “Oops!” defense.
Occasionally I think we all can see through people. If you let your defenses down and sort of relax when communicating, it’s like there’s some arcane body language that we can read, and it conveys what the words don’t, often contradicting them in fact. So I can’t tell you why, but I got this vibe when she said “Are you mad?” that said, “I really fucked up didn’t I?” It had a sort of passive-aggressive component to it, like she knew what she was doing and couldn’t stop and she wondered if she’d pushed me too far.
I’d say you’re probably in the ballpark here. I sometimes think she wants to date me vicariously, i.e. through her friend, who would then relay details of how the date went etc.
FTR I met Betty at one of her parties. It wasn’t like “Here’s my friend. Why don’t you two date?” but rather, Betty asked her the day after the party what she knew about me.
I wonder if there’s a weird maternal thing, like Allison thinking, ‘These women aren’t good enough for you.’ Or maybe she thinks if I dated one of them, she’d lose me as a friend because I’d be with that other person 24/7 etc. Right, I know I said that she never calls me—but if she has guanoneurological dissociative disorder…
The above is what I foresee happening. She isn’t the type to throw her arms around people etc. and none of the women there fascinated me or anything. Still, I can easily imagine such a thing happening at the worst time later on. A lot of people I’ve met IRL think I’m weird for objections like this, “on principle.” If no harm was actually done, why make a fuss (they say)? Of course people do talk after the party, gossip, whatever, so there’s no way of knowing how far those ripples might extend and ultimately poison the well.
I don’t know if I can “afford” that sort of friendship.
I can almost fit that into some weird angle. When people act crazy, there’s inconsistency within their own logic. I mean, it isn’t like she calls me and avails herself of my friendship all the time. OTOH if you believe the words from the horse’s mouth, I’m one of her favorite people. Factor in that she’s from a really tough background (streets of NY) and you can imagine she plays her cards close to the vest.
BTW I’m invited to an event Friday, a celebration for a mutual (male) friend not mentioned till now. I accepted long ago, and unless I miss my guess, Allison will be there. I may talk to her then and I can let her know, face-to-face, what I thought. I have a feeling she’ll enlist mutual friends to help plead her case. My plan is to tell them to stay out of it.
This, essentially. She wants to keep you around just in case. That means doing what she can to mess up your chances with anyone else.
Not if you want to get anywhere with anyone else.
Here’s a thought -
No.
She already knows what you thought. All you will be doing is giving her a chance to convince you otherwise, and/or stage a scene so you will look like a drama queen in front of any possible romantic prospects at the party.
My guess is that, if you find anyone at the party that you find romantically interesting, she will move in and try to mess it up again. Your job at that point will be to change the subject back to the person you find interesting. Don’t allow Alison to change the subject to Alison.
But don’t act crazy about it. When Alison tries it, smile and nod and ignore it and go back to what you were talking about.
The scene: lobotomyboy63 has identified HotBabe as a possible romantic partner. He has struck up a conversation with her. Alison spots this, and gravitates over to see what she can do.
Alison" “Why are you flirting with HotBabe when you are always e-mailing me?”
You: “Mm. HotBabe, you were saying about growing up in Detroit. What was high school like?”
Or something like that.
Lather, rinse, repeat. Alison will try it a few times, becoming progressively more pushy. Ignore her, politely. That way, she looks crazy and you look sane.
She may well be keeping you as a male lady-in-waiting.
But she very well may also be interested in you.
Or maybe just interested in having you flatter her by being interested in her.
I’m leaning toward the second or third option. Either way, her behavior is manipulative, immature, and frankly, pathetic for any woman out of her teens.
In short, she wants you to pursue her.
Here’s why, line by line. Each individual thing may not mean that she wants you to want her, but with the benefit of hindsight, they do add up to a pattern:
…she declined, saying she has given up on dating anyone.
Bullshit. She was testing you to see if you’d try to talk her out of that. A mature person might not be interested in dating at the moment or be fed up with dating. But to say you’ve “given up” is either wallowing in self pity or fishing for someone to give her reassurance, and hopefully to beg her to reconsider her stance because they want to date her so badly.
Months after I asked her out, she mentioned trying an on-line dating service and getting bizarre (probably pervy) responses.
Again, testing you to see if you’d say “Oh, you’re willing to date again? Please please date me!” Especially since she was expressing dissatisfaction with the men on the site.
She seems to want me to date her friend, let’s call her Betty, whom I think is attractive. However I know there are deal-breakers there for Betty, and
Allison knows it. Complicated, but I said to Allison, "If Betty says she won’t date X, and she already knows I’m X, how could it work?"
Throwing you a great opportunity to say “But I don’t want to date Betty! I want to date you!” Why would she propose Betty if she knew Betty was not a feasible choice?
I thought Allison and I were good…if she is thinking of dating again, she didn’t ask me, so maybe she just didn’t want to date me, which works for me. I was content with how things were.
She doesn’t want to ask you. She wants you to ask her. Even if she genuinely wants to date you, she wants you to come running after her.
Yet then she injected my name into this, saying she was on the phone “all the time” getting calls from guys saying “Stay away from” this guy or that. She acted like I called her all the time, that I was helping to create the drama, etc. :eek::rolleyes::mad::dubious::smack:
She was totally trying to make herself sound more desirable, that all these guys were calling her all the time trying to make sure she didn’t date anyone but them. She might have been trying to make you jealous, or she could have been just trying to make herself look better to her friends. Either way, lame lame lame.
Short story long, it seemed like a variation of cock blocking.
Cock-blocking or not, it does sound like she was trying to portray you as someone who was interested in her enough to “create drama” about her dating life.
**The mere mention of someone promoting “drama” is anathema among singles and the stigma probably doesn’t wash off easily. **
Good point. I take it back. She was totally cock-blocking in a very insiduous way–and it’s really impossible to refute the notion that you’re a drama queen.
Just before I left, when it was just me and one other woman and Allison, Allison mentioned that she was going to call me to say that if I wanted to stay at her place(45-60 minutes from home and there was bad weather for driving), I could bring my toothbrush and stay over if driving were too dangerous. "But I didn’t want you to get the wrong idea."
Oh, good lord! How transparent can you get?
I wonder if
A) she’s goaltending for Betty No
**B) she wants me to ask her out **Yes, even if she is planning to say no. C) she’s just fucking nuts Yes. Or at least someone who is trying really hard to jerk you around.
**My current thought is to avoid her like the plague because I think that as good a friend as she can be, the potential downside is too great.**Good plan. As you said, you probably can’t afford this type of relationship. And even if you could, why would you want to?
Don’t overthink it, it’s not that complicated. It’s just the usual “Dance puppets! Dance!” routine some women play with a guy they like to have in their periphery and acknowledging them, but not in their vagina. It’s not crazy, it’s just the typical behavior of a somewhat immature person who likes attention.
I’ve definitely seen this sort of thing, including between gay guys and their female friends, even between oddly possessive sisters and brothers. Only the ‘right’ person has to be both perfect for you but also non-threatening to them. Because, well, she’s right, isn’t she? If you fell head over heels with someone who managed to provide both friendship and sex, you’d be MIA for quite a while, or at least cut down on seeing her? Not that she wouldn’t do exactly the same thing, but it’s still a sad truth for a lot (but not all) adult relationships, especially male/female.
ETA Don’t want to turn this into a ‘Men do this, women do this!’ stand-up/self-help book/debate thing, but I often find that when men describe women who ‘use’ men for their emotional needs or keep them around 'til something better comes along, they’re simply describing friendship. Maybe not the greatest friendship ever, and maybe not what some men are used ot with other men, but friendship all the same.
Whether the man is pining away for the woman also makes a big difference. If the OP were pining away for Alison, then the story would read very differently.
I think it is, in a way. My friends and I are lucky in that we don’t all hit rock bottom at the same time, so we can use one another as armchair psychologists and support systems when we’re in a time of need. Ideally it’s reciprocal. There have been a few SDMB threads about people who suck all the sympathy out of those around them and never provide a shoulder to lean on. That’s shitty. But if you’re not on board with this type of friendship (and some people just don’t like discussing their problems, I get it) it may seem like you’re getting used when really you’re just being treated as a friend. e.g. ‘I can’t believe she made me listen to her talk about not getting that promotion and her problems with her parents for months and I never even got somehting out of it! She used me!’
Do you really have time for friends like this? That cause aggravation and doubts and all that? I’m guessing you think she’s pretty hot, because if any girl you were never interested in treated you this way, you’d be hanging out with your other friends.
That’s the other thing I meant to say earlier WRT saying something at the party where this happened. She being the hostess, I don’t think there was any way I could say anything (in front of others or in a private moment) that wouldn’t have impacted the party. OK, suppose I had found a private moment. Had I expressed my extreme displeasure, that would have made her feel pretty guilty or defensive or whatever, and then she’d have to face her guests and continue being a good, cheery hostess. Then of course if she faltered and guests asked what was up, it would be “proof” of my dramatic nature.
The alternative, keeping it short and sweet, isn’t a good one either. It wouldn’t really convey the level of displeasure that it should. Again I don’t want to type it out but I estimate what I’ve revealed is about 1/3 to 1/2 of the total damage.
When I don’t know what to say or do, I don’t say or do anything (I’m still surprised I said, out loud, “You need a CAT scan”). Later I retrace what was said, see if I can figure out if I missed something etc. My natural inclination is to say nothing even now…I’d just as soon fade out of the picture because I don’t see anything to be gained. I don’t figure I’ll change her or that anything she says will change what I think or how I feel about it.
FWIW, I think I know all the people who will be there and I’m not anticipating meeting anyone who would float my boat. That sounds like a good approach, though.
Supposing that’s true, she totally shot herself in the foot.
The full response she gave me was something like, “It isn’t what God wants for me. Every time I go against that, the relationship never works. I’m content to be where I am.” My reply was something like, “Too bad…you seem to have a lot to offer. And I don’t mean ‘offer me,’ necessarily. But I understand.” End of discussion about it and that was six months ago.
Yeah it was bizarre. She told me this on the phone; I didn’t take the bait. By that time I realized she’s a lot more religious than me, for one thing.
Again, according to Allison, Betty inquired about me after a party, purely of her own volition. But Allison seems to push it, even after I pointed out how I don’t match some “must-haves” on Betty’s list. I really think she wanted to see the two of us get together. But who knows? Had we tried, maybe Allison would have been unhappy about it.
[quote=“Green_Bean, post:12, topic:510133”]
I thought Allison and I were good…if she is thinking of dating again, she didn’t ask me, so maybe she just didn’t want to date me, which works for me. I was content with how things were.
She doesn’t want to ask you. She wants you to ask her. Even if she genuinely wants to date you, she wants you to come running after her.
Agreed. I’ve seen this in women before and you mention it down the page: even if she fully intended to say no, she’d like to be pursued.
Yeah, now that you say that I think there was some defensive backpedaling here that got out of control. Essentially she started on this “why I never date” thing in the convo which then (in her mind) may have required support and proof and examples blah blah, making me collateral damage.
Yeah, that was a real corker. I’m going along thinking it’s platonic and I’m quietly checking out the field if I go to a party of hers and then this? I have to say, if the streets had been flash flooding, I still would have left. Or maybe slept in my car somewhere else. Talk about a dangerous situation, huh? No witnesses, for starters.
The more I think about it, the more I think this is true but with a caveat or two. “Hell hath no fury” and all that.
I plan to. One very slight regret: when I don’t show up at her next party, maybe those women will think Allison “busted” me or whatever. But, it doesn’t matter and it can’t be helped. Like the computer said in War Games, “Interesting game professor…the only way to win is not to play.”
The possessive thing would fit, in a way. The dumping her thing not so much insofar as Allison and I aren’t in touch for days or weeks at a time as it is. Supposing I had met someone at said party, I think we’d go to future parties together. I think too that people in healthy relationships don’t require a SO to dump old friends; even if a new woman came into my life, Allison would be “grandfathered” in as a friend. But that’s a rational appraisal and Allison’s MMV.
Maybe it’s my own weird head, but I lug around this notion that the gen pop thinks men are a bunch of dumb lug nuts that just want to get into women’s pants and will pretend to be friends until the opportunity presents itself, yadda.
Isn’t there an Oscar Wilde quote that says something like, “Women seduce men by resisting their advances and then blocking their retreat”? Maybe I’d feel [del]better[del] less bad about this if I had at least really been “into” her, had pursued her, and so on :smack:
A man chases a woman until she catches him. Sometimes.
IIRC some sociologists have theorized that true altruism doesn’t exist insofar as “if I help you, you better help me when I need it.” I try not to be an accountant about it but some definitely abuse others. And there are people I refuse to ask for help because I can’t thank them enough (by their standards, I mean). I know I’ll feel compelled to pay back a favor threefold.
Actually, no, I wouldn’t say she’s hot by a long shot. Everybody’s looking for something different but I’m thinking she’s a 4 on the “Hell yeah I’d hit that!” scale. The attraction was more intellectual but I can be intellectual with a friend, so it was no big. The surprise was that she was willing to be friends because IME and IMO, people are really looking for mates. They say they want a lover who’s a friend etc. but they often discard people because there’s “no chemistry.” Uh, friendships don’t require a romantic spark. But some people do hang on in the hopes of the other person’s feelings changing, I guess.
Anyway the thing I liked about her parties is that they’re laid back. No blaring music, no dancing, no boozing it up, no uber complicated plans and parking and arrrrrgh. Maybe play cards with some people, chew the fat, try everything people brought to the potluck, and just chill out after a tough week.
She’s betraying me, I think. If you’re really friends with someone, you don’t make them look bad, inventing things that never happened, etc. while aggrandizing yourself. Or is this a whoosh?
:eek::rolleyes::mad::dubious::smack: