Dawn of the Dead, Watchmen and 300 were great, Sucker Punch had way too many “omg that was awesome” moments to really dislike. So far every DC movie he has made has been extremely mediocre, including this one.
So, I just watched it. I will admit, I took it in chunks, with a couple of breaks, and I was watching it at home in daylight, instead of in the theater in one go as I did with the “Whedon Cut”, so it’s not an entirely fair comparison. I certainly wasn’t as immersed. That being said…
I actually kind of liked the first one. I thought it was better than some of the lesser MCU movies. This one was…not. In my opinion, of course. Again, it’s not an entirely fair comparison, but, boy, it seemed like literally every single decision Whedon made was the right one. This was just a slog. Basil Exposition should have had a starring credit.
Some other thoughts, more or less at random:
I appreciated that we still had Bruce and Barry’s interaction in the Flash-cave, which I thought was a highlight of both versions. But Snyder, for whatever reason, put in background music that subtly shifted the tone of that whole scene. It’s like he just can’t stand a light-hearted, good-natured interaction. But we lost the “Just save one” interaction, which I thought was one of the best cinematic Bat-moments ever, and almost by default the best cinematic Flash moment.
Cyborg had an expanded role in terms of screen-time, but he actually seemed a bit reduced as a character. We lost the line where he’s talking to his father about seeing a monster, and saying “It’s funny you thought I meant me.” Even the subtle bits like putting him in a hoodie for most of his “casual” scenes in the Whedon cut seemed like better character choices.
Martian Manhunter really seemed jammed in there, and actually managed to undercut one of the few moments of genuine humanity in a Snyder film. Lois and Martha commiserate in their shared grief, and Lois gains comfort and gets some of Martha’s strength. Except…psyche! It was Martian Manhunter all along! I was surprised we lost the line from the Whedon Cut about “the engine of the world” stopping when Clark died - I thought for sure that was from the Snyder original; it’s almost a direct quote from Ayn Rand.
And Steppenwolf somehow had even less character in this version. The Whedon Cut version, where he’s Darkseid’s son, and Steppenwolf led the initial failed invasion of Earth, seemed like a much better version to me. Instead, we get Darkseid as an inarticulate over-glorified Terrax the Tamer, who gets his ass kicked and runs way, and Steppenwolf as a completely generic lieutenant who doesn’t really have a personality or character. Also, somehow Steppenwolf knows the Mother Boxes are on Earth, but everyone has forgotten where Earth is, and has forgotten that the only planet where Darkseid was defeated and the planet where he lost the Mother Boxes was also the only planet where Darkseid was defeated and had found the Anti-Life Equation.
Also, all the little humanizing interactions were gone. The kids who interviewed Superman (which shows us how and why he was so beloved), the innocent bystanders near the reactor who Flash and Superman rescue (which shows that they actually care about people, and makes us care more about them), even the bit with the janitor’s wife cursing out the aliens who abducted them. I get the impression from Snyder’s movies that although I’m sure he loves individuals, he just doesn’t like people very much.
I’m not sure I have a general opinion. I thought Watchmen was a good movie that actually managed to improve on the source material in a couple of ways (I realize that’s kind of heresy). I thought 300 was…ok. Not great, but it did pretty much what it was trying to do. I thought Sucker Punch was perhaps the purest essence of Zack Snyder - jaw-dropping visuals set pieces, but a bunch of unlikeable characters, and a story I just didn’t really care about. I think his DC movies have been relentlessly grim “super hero” movies by someone who just doesn’t like super heroes.
I’ve often wondered how much of this trend is Zack being Zack and how much of it is DC/Warner desperately trying to get out from under the MCU shadow. In some ways it seems different for the sake of being different. Then again, the aesthetic isn’t terribly different from his other films.
In general I’d say that I prefer dark themed super hero movies (not necessarily dark palettes) to happy saccharine ones, but in not a huge fan of these.
Rewatching this, Part 1 actually has a lot going on. Part 2 is where it really slows down.
A few other random bits where I thought Whedon made the right choice:
Superman coming back in his blue uniform instead of the black and dull silver one Snyder uses. The whole movie is just so drab. Even the blue uniform is a dull blue, but it at least adds a little bit of color. And reinforces Superman as the beacon of hope, instead of a quasi-fascist. On the other hand, I think Snyder does in fact view Superman as a quasi-fascist, but I’m uncomfortably unsure as to whether he thinks that’s a good thing.
Lois as a Bat-contingency plan, instead of just randomly happening to be in the area. That both fills a plot hole of Lois just coincidentally being in the right place at the right time and shows Batman as a tactical genius - or at least as having paid attention when Future-Flash told him Lois was the key in the last movie. It’s even better if you’ve seen Bat-contingencies for a rogue Superman in other depictions, because they’re always ways to kill Superman, and this time, against expectations, it’s a way to save Superman from his own worst impulses. It’s Whedon at his best - understanding genre tropes (Batman always has a contingency plan) and simultaneously undercutting them (Batman is ruthless so we expect a ruthless contingency not an appeal to Clark’s humanity) and reinforcing them (Batman really is a tactical genius).
Cutting out most of Basil Exposition’s part - Whedon set up the plot and the Mother Boxes and the ancient alliance and the failed first invasion in far less time without losing any information. He also did it in a way that made Batman a detective who pieces some bits of it together himself.
Just the overall run-time. Snyder’s cut is almost four hours. Whedon’s cut is half as long, but loses no plot, and has more character development.
I thought Darkseid was pronounced dark seed and not dark side, not sure why.
I’ve gotten through an hour so far, and am being reminded of why movies are generally only about two hours long.
Imagine if there had never been a 2017 version of this movie… if Joss Whedon had never been involved, if the studio had never sort-of-fired Snyder after his daughter died. Imagine if this mvoie had just been made and sent right into the movie theatres. No one would have liked it; this bloated mess would have been the new standard for the “director who’s so full of himself” phenomenon. It’d be the superhero Heaven’s Gate.
I’ve written off anything the DC Universe does, movie-wise as long as Snyder is/was/will be involved in any way, from directing to being on the same continent as the actors. Pity, because I was always a DC over Marvel comics guy growing up. But the DCU has 2 decent movies in it, and Snyder had nothing to do with either one. I gave the Snyder recut a chance, but bailed 30 minutes in. He’s still a talentless hack and always will be so. I’d sooner watch a 15 hour telenovella on Polish language television than watch 5 minutes of Snyder-shit.
How about a Romanian cop show?:
Stranger
I found these ruminations on the Snyder cut interesting. There’s obviously a lot of backstory and history that I’ve been oblivious to…
Traditional English pronunciation is “two vowels walking first does the talking”. E-I pronounced long E.
But Seid is Germanic in origin and usually follows Germanic rules.
My wife and I watched it last night. She thought it was the best recent DC movie. More coherent, more characterization, and it held her interest for the whole four hours. She also felt like it was a watered down Infinity Gauntlet, in that only three parts and all on earth. I thought it was more coherent as well but still had some sloppy storytelling in it, as many of you have already pointed out. Snyder is an artsy person first who is brilliant at cinematography but I think his storytelling is moments of greatness without any way to tie them all together.
Other random thoughts:
Maserschmidt: Interesting article, thanks. The writers get a bit high falutin’ in their writing at times, such that I can’t tell if they liked it or not but it was an interesting read of what I could understand.
When the decision, and I’m not going into the politics of it, was made to cut Cyborg, I understand the reshoots and cuts made but it also lost some needed exposition while adding in some other good exposition.
I forgot the awful amazon armor compared to the better ones in her solo movie.
I agree that the better way to handle this was to give each person their solo movie then bring them together so we understand them better. I think this means the studio/director/writer needs a firm ten year plan, no more than fifteen, or the actors age out of the roles. Sounds like Snyder had part of that started.
Anyway, thanks for the discussion! I really enjoyed that as well!
First off, I think the Snyder cut was much better than the theatrical release. Between both versions there was probably enough material to flesh out three movies.
But Cyborg…all I can say is that I assume his acting coach, George Lucas, was thrilled with his performance.
I didn’t think he was that bad. I just didn’t think the script gave him all that much to work with. I thought he did a better job in the Whedon Cut, which I thought gave him better dialogue. And, for all that Whedon may be a bullying asshole who made the re-shoots toxic for Ray Fisher and I’m not saying the results are worth that, the fact is that Whedon is much better than Snyder at getting good performances from actors, especially marginal ones, and fitting dialogue and direction to their range.
I’m not a huge Snyder stan, but I’ve enjoyed all of his movies and, more than anything else, I appreciate his style of filmmaking. I know what I’m getting from a Snyder movie and I like his vision or whatever. We watched the Whedon version before watching Snyder’s version, and I have to say how surprised I am at how many funny lines that seemed to be 100% Joss were actually in this movie. Flash’s weird quirky-ness was a Snyder invention…who knew?
I enjoyed Snyder’s version a lot more because it felt like a complete movie versus an obvious Frankenstein. It was mentioned above, but I’m sad that the Batman/Flash “just save one” conversation wasn’t in this movie. I absolutely LOVE that conversation and characterization. It’s too bad the Snyderverse series couldn’t be completed because I think the movies would have gotten better as the series went on.
Okay, we just finished the Whedon/theatrical cut.
Whedon changed enough that it’s a different movie. Further, Cyborg was not cut out as much as I thought. In fact, he got a happy ending.
I’m just going to share my wife’s thoughts:
Okay, out of curiosity, we watched the #josswhedonsjusticeleague again after watching the #ZackSnydersJusticeLeague yesterday. Joss Whedon really did change the whole story such that the two versions are significantly different. There are elements of both versions I really like and elements that I don’t care for in each. Cyborg and Flash weren’t cut out of Joss’s version as much as I thought yesterday. I love Snyder’s cinematography, character development, and depth of emotion, and I love Joss’s humor and humanistic themes. So, I guess I’m going to consider them as separate movies and appreciate what I like about each.
@Ike_Witt, I also like the Zack one because while some aspects were confusing, mainly the Knightmare aspects, the story was more cohesive and I also like character building as my wife said.
@gdave - That’s an interesting point about Joss getting performances out as well as hitting their range.
@Sir_T-Cups , I also agree that there are some lines that I wanted, like that scene but also Superman saving everyone even in the middle of a fight. I was equally surprised at how much humor Snyder’s had.
Thanks for the conversation!
I did like that ‘just save one’ speech, but the reason it doesn’t work is because Flash is already an experienced hero who’s fought supervillains before. He’s the one who captured Captain Boomerang in Suicide Squad, which is supposed to still be in continuity with Whedon’s movie.
That’s what makes Whedon cutting Cyborg so much more egregious to me. He already had a novice POV character for the audience, but chose to reduce him and write an out of character Flash instead.
i remember someone seeing justice league and saying ed boons "injustice " game series told the same story pretty much but the games were better …
I haven’t seen the Snyder JL cut but I have seen “Comrade Detective” and it is genius.
we watched it over the weekend. Far better than the theatrical release, IMHO. But, damn, it was long. It clocked in at over four hours. And what was the point of that outta nowhere glimpse of a possible future dystopia that will never be realized? I read Snyder’s comments, and I know what the never-filmed story was going to be, and this is probably the only chance for him to get these scenes in front of the public, but this belongs as a separate "bonus episode or side feature or something, not confusing audiences in the main film.
Frankly, Lois, I don’t give a damn.
Pepper Mill’s comment – too much CGI.