So why is it “right” that America has the death penalty? The rest of the “first world” agrees it is a barbaric practice.
I’m with you on this one. I may be called politically INcorrect, ignorant or whatever, but this kind of thing is simply wrong. I don’t give a damm what culture it was. Same with FGM, slavery, and a hell of a lot of other things. I live in one of the more “multi-cultural” societies around and generally have no problem with it. When it comes to the public hanging of a 16 YO girl I am revolted and consider the perpetrators to be barbarians.
Regards
Testy
I guess we have to disagree on this one. I support the DP although I believe it should be done differently. I don’t really think you can compare the execution of a murderer with that of a 16 YO girl guilty of being a rape victim and sassing the judge. The seriousness of those two crimes seem very different to me.
Regards
Testy
From what I can find scattered about the internet (the girl’s name is given differently in different locations–try Atefe Rajabi):
- the girl was on trial for acts “against chastity,” but not for being raped;
- her lover (not rapist) was also tried for the same offense and was given 100 lashes;
- the girl violently berated the judge in his court room (an unwise move, given that he is also the chief executive of the town, as well as a judge);
- her lack of a defense lawyer is a violation of Iran law (and of Shari’a Law?)
- the judge spent the time and energy to pursue her case to the highest courts to get approval for the execution–a rare event in Iran (both the execution and the act of a judge pursuing such an odd punishment are rare);
- the court (judge) falsified her age as 22 when taking the case to the higher courts;
- and the judge, himself, carried out the sentence.
So while we have a culture that we can cluck our tongues over for their repressive laws toward sexuality or women, we are not actually witnessing an entire culture oppressing a young girl so much as we are witnessing a specific judge who is taking out his own wrath on a girl for daring to rebuke him in public. Note that his actions put him in violation of his own laws. Given the number of falsely imprisoned and even executed people in this country, (often based on either the incompetence or the malice of the authorities), it would seem that a more appropriate anger would be toward all people in authority who abuse their power rather than one more “aren’t those people bad?” rant.
You are right. In America, Britain, Aus, Nz etc, etc it was a revolting thing that she was dragged into court. She was the victim according to “our” laws. What happened to her was repellant. Where she lived she broke the law (damn shitty law), but the law none the less.
Is their a department of “what should be the law for the entire planet”? No? I didn’t think so.
Is it now ok to kill people because they have been convicted of a crime? Well not in many countries.
I believe their are quite a few chaps sitting in cells in a US base in Cuba right now, charged with nothing and wondering what will be their fate.
I don’t think that the “you killed someone so we get to kill you” line, is justifiable either.
There is a difference in the crime commited but not a diffrerence in the punishment .
I am certainly NOT saying this girl deserved the death penalty for her “crime”. I am saying the death penalty should never be the punishment, for any crime.
For those who wish to compare this outrage on the basis of the death penalty to the american justice system, would it satisfy you if the Iranian girl was given life in prison ?
Yes. If she broke a law in her country she suffers the penalty.
Hookers still go to jail in America don’t they? They don’t here. Which country is right?
I have to add…if the people of the country find the law is too harsh, then they should do something about it. Belly aching from a distance won’t change anything. Well not till someone sniffs WMD’s anyway.
First of all, thanks for injecting some facts into the debate. I’m not sure they shift the blame away from “aren’t those bad people” though. They have a religion-based judicial system that allows the DP for something as trivial as pre-marital sex, a commonplace activity in almost any culture. A system that prescribes the DP for something as trivial as premarital sex is bad to begin with. I’ll grant that the average Iranian can’t do anything about it but it is still wrong.
If, as you say, the judge executed her out of anger at her public defiance, then what does this say for the rule of law in Iran?
Best regards
Testy
Well, as I mentioned before, we disagree on this. My outrage is not for the fact that someone was executed, it is for the fact that someone was executed for something as trivial as premarital sex.
Regards
Testy
I don’t think it’s a straw-man at all. Nazism was, in a way, a secular religion whose followers were stone cold fanatics. Religious fanatics are much the same species of animal. When they take control of an entire country, the Western world is too apt to give them a pass by naming such governments “theocracies” or even “religious fundamentalist regimes.” What’s detrimental about that is we still tend to think of religious people as “good guys”. Tibet, after all, was a theocracy that attempted to fend off annexation by Communist China. The popular image of a pastor in Wesern culture–notwithstanding the recent scandals-- is still a Spencer Tracy-like kindly man who goes about doing good works. So when we apply the term “religious” to extremist regimes, we forget what they really are, which is fascists.
My attitude toward religion is about the same as yours. As far as being fascists in sheep’s clothing, I believe that Buddhism is possibly an exeption to this. (OBTW, I’m not a Buddhist. 
) Hinduism and the Middle-Eastern monotheistic religions seem to be prone to this kind of thing.
Regards
Testy
Do they? They allow corporal punishment for pre-marital sex, but is the death penalty permitted?
It appears to me that the judge got an execution order approved by the high mullahs for her contempt of the court combined with a lie about her age. (Sort of the way that we used to execute blacks for being “uppity”–although we rarely had to go to a high court to carry out the sentence.)
I am not defending corporal punishment for pre-maritl sex, but there is a world of difference between corporal punishment and the death penalty.
I know that adultery in Saudi is punishable by the DP and suspect that premarital sex is as well. Oddly enough, the male partner seems to get off much lighter in these cases. (rape is a different issue. The male is executed for that.) I believe Iran has a similarly repressive legal system but if someone can come up with something saying different I’m open to change on the matter.
My own personal guess would be that premarital sex is punishable by death but the sentence is rarely carried out. This judge in a fit of anger, managed to execute her for it.
As far as executing blacks for “being uppity”, I agree. We used to do a lot of things depending on how far back you want to go.
Regards
Testy
While it is trivail to you and me and much of the rest of the “western world” it is not trivial in many places.
Do I personaly think that is STUPID? Yes!
I also think it is is stupid to believe their is a god. Another belief not shared with much of the rest of the world.
I know she would not have got the death penalty in my country. I know she wouldn’t have got the death penalty in your country. But are we so open, so accepting of “moral” crime that we can throw stones?
My point is, every country on the planet has different laws, all of which will seem stupid to someone from somewhere else. Some countries have laws that are truly cruel from our perspective. We can’t change them though. They have to do that for themselves. They have to be free to hand down the penalties they see fit.
America has the death penalty although most of the rest of the “first world” doesn’t. Do I think it is right? NO. Am I going to demand you have the same laws as us? No. I can only do what I can do within my own country.
My outrage is for the fact that any state believes it has the “right” to execuete anyone for whatever crime and I am happy to live somewhere that shares my values.
We may be, as you seem to think, brutal, savage, subhuman, troglodytic travesties of the human animal but even we don’t kill our hookers, monsters though we are. Many of us would be perfectly happy to leave them alone, to live their own lives.
We do have some stupid laws. So what? It has no bearing or effect on Iran’s laws. So now the crime was sassing the judge? Premarital sex? Rape? Was the judge just being pissy? What the heck? Stop bringing the Great Western Satan into everything. For once, just once, we didn’t do it. Stop trying to rationalize for a butcher who should be taken off his judge bench by saying “Well those damn Yanks suck so it’s OK”. I knew plenty of Iranians (or Persians) and other Muslims from other countries when I was in college, and I still work with some. Guess what - all this disgusts them too.
(Bolding mine)
Well, at least we agree on the God business. As far as “throwing stones”? In this case, hell yes! I do not and cannot equate the execution of a 16 YO girl for giving in to her boyfriend with the execution of murderers. There is no moral equivalency here.
As far as changing cruel and stupid laws goes, I believe we can. One of the best is publicity. Letting these people know that the world is watching and that they are considered to be barbarian savages stuck in a theocratic dark age is a good start. Giving them a pass because it is part of their culture only encourages this kind of behaviour.
I understand you don’t like the DP but regardless, other people do. I’m certainly not claiming perfection for the US legal system, far from it. I personally admire the Dutch laws as far as sex and drugs and wish the US would adopt something similar.
Regards
Testy
I don’t at all think that America is " brutal, savage, subhuman, troglodytic travesties of the human animal ".
Yes you have some stupid laws.
Yes we have some stupid laws (very STUPID laws).
Iran has some very, very stupid laws, but they are the laws.
Who said “you” did do it? Is that the point? That America had nothing to do with it? Well I certainly didn’t think that was the point. I don’t think Americans suck at all (well except for shrub) and I’m sure I could find many anti death penalty Americans.
The judge had his head up his arse maybe but he was adhering to the law of his country, same a sa judge would in your country or my country.
It is up to the people of a country to decide their laws…NOT anyone else. NZ decided prostitution was ok (no not everyone…some hate the law change), America decided the death penalty was ok for murder (again not everybody), Iran decided sex outside of marriage was a bad thing (again not everyone I’m sure). If Iran wants to change their laws they will.
In my merry little universe the death penalty is not acceptable for any crime.
Sorry, I misread your initial statement as a castigation of the entire culture as a whole (believe me, I hear that a lot around these parts), rather than a criticism of its moral code. It’s really, then, just silenus’ statement about extirpation that I have issues with.