Thank you for the hygiene lesson. I shall scrub throughly.
Things change because of internal pressure. Today was a big day in protesting about beliefs in NZ. One loud group opposing civil unions, one loud group pro civil unions, on the steps of parliment. This is the way things change. People in the country affected by the laws in their country making a noise.
Unless you plan on “liberating” another country, you should allow them to decide when enough is enough for THEM.
I never even vaguely suggested I approved with the situation from the OP. Actually the opposite would be true. It is a revolting case. I did realise it is not my place to agree or disagre with it though.
Ok that is not entirely right. I can make noise about how wrong it is. Hopefully that noise lends support to those seeking to change the situation from the inside. I know I wish them the very best in changing the situation. I also know I don’t want to “help” them. Such “help” is probably as condescending as your post was.
The “let’s alter or eliminate their culture because it is Bad and Wrong”, statements don’t sit well with me.
Of course it is hard to make change from the inside, but it is the only way it can successfully happen.
Lastly, I don’t feel superior or super PC. I expressed my opinion, much the same as anyone else.
What kind of idiocy are you blabbing now? The web is full of articles about women being executed by sharia laws.
I think the point is not a particular set of laws, but the sad fact that under many regimes, religious or otherwise, no matter who else they come for, they come for the women first. In China they kill girl babies, in India they burn young wives, it’s not really about laws, it’s about a lack of respect for women as human beings by male dominated cultures.
From what I know of the Koran, it allows women many rights and protections which are not accorded them under the existing laws of various Islamic countries. Does this mean that Islam as a religion is at fault, or the particularly patriarchal expression of that religion?
Many Christian demoninations have as little respect for women, the expression of that dislike is held in check by secular laws and government. I have no faith at all, that should some terrible accident occur and Christian fundamentalists of whatever flavour suddenly got to run things, that women would not be treated as badly.
The web is certainly full of stories about women being doubly abused, first by rapists and then by their families. It happens in Hindu India, several nominally Christian countries, and several other places around the world. (You, yourself, note that it has happened in the U.S. fairly recently.) However, at this time, when it happens in a Muslim country, a number of people (apparently including you) mindlessly chant “Islam did it.”
(This is similar to the issue of female circumcision which occurs in Muslim, Christian, and Animist locations, based on local custom, which also draws cries of “Islam does it.” It is barbaric and should be stopped, but it is not a Muslim practice.)
On a site dedicated to opposing ignorance, you are fighting on the wrong side.
Gah! Not that discussion again! Who are you to decide what is Islam and what isn’t? If the judge says he strangled the girl in accordance with Islam or following laws prescribed by Islam and felt it his pious obligation to kill her, that’s his faith and you can’t just come and say his beliefs are false, void and null because they don’t match whatever kind of interpretation of Islam you happened to subscribe to.
Fighting ignorance is more than doggedly insisting on a dogmatic approach to religious beliefs – especially when such are in direct opposition to nearly all recorded instances in the real world.
Iran is not New Zealand, or England, or the USA. If people demonstrated against the leaders in Iran, they might never be seen again. OK, you had demonstrations in new Zealand. But your country does not have a “high holy court answerable to no one”, you still have scruples and laws. The leaders in Iran are drunk with power, and no demonstration or protest will do it. They will never step down willingly, and will never make any change that might reduce their own power. The only way to get rid of tyrants is to KILL them. Since they probably have various hangers on, security guys, police, inqusitors etc around them all the time, you can forget the simple shooting. The only way to remove them will be all-out WAR.
WTF? 1) I’m not liberating any country, thankyouverymuch. 2) They may be already deciding it’s enough, but there’s very little they can do about it, huh.
YOU shouldn’t try to gloze over the fact that a young woman was sentenced to death because she was raped and talked back to a judge.
tomndebb
No.
I never said the U.S. send girls to the electric chair because some asshole raped her and another asshole thought she had a big mouth.
And where did I said the Islam did it? I was talking about sharia law.
On a site dedicated to fight ignorance you’re doing a damn good job of condoning atrocities and thereby making people averse to the truth.
calm kiwi, when human beings decided that the wholesale slaughter of jews by Nazis was wrong and evil, did they sit back and make “a big enough noise” (very loud quacking? did they honk?) that the Nazis thought, 'Oh gee whiz, the rest of the world doesnt approve of us killing jews. I never knew that until now… its a good thing they told us! Hey guys, lets stop and put down all our weapons and killing machines and abandon our culture of hatred and genocide."
Did the forceful alteration of that culture “not sit right” with you?
You say that we should let people decide when enough is enough for them. If someone big and strong is beating up on a little kid, do you intervene or decide to wait until the kid has had “enough” and decides to fight back? Do you consider that even if the child does fight back, he or she may be too weak to win?
Do you think that the oppressed people in a regime are oppressed simply because they havent gotten fed up enough with it to fight back, or is it rather that they are kept in a position of weakness by the people opressing them? If someone is harming another person they rarely take steps out of their way to make sure the fight is fair.
I disagree with your statement that change can only happen from the inside. Sometimes a group that is being oppressed, murdered and taken advantage of is too small and too weak to rise up and protect themselves, and in order for the injustice to stop, someone else has to step in.
I dont claim to know what to do that can make this better. Nor do I claim that military action in this case is the only thing that will solve it, or anything like that. I only think that “wishing them the very best in this situation” is about as useful as not doing anything at all.
And yet you get to pick and choose what Islam really is based on your own hatreds and prejudices? I have made no claim to what “Islam is.” I have noted that the judge violated the rules of his own country and religion. These are statements included without contradiction in the story as it has been presented. He had to violate the due process that does exist (however poorly) in Iran and lie about the facts to the higher court. If this was all in accord with Islam, why would he need to violate the rules and lie?
Unless you have a list of the thousands of women executed each year for violating rules against chastity in Turkey, Libya, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Algeria, Malaysia, Indonesia, and quite a few other countries, making a claim that the judge’s actions represent “Islam” would appear to be simply wishful thinking on your part.
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Of course not, nor have I claimed that you did. I noted that many women in many parts of the world suffer the double insult of rape and oppression for having been raped and that you have confirmed that point even for the U.S. I made no claim that women in the U.S. were executed, so that strawman is not applicable.
Since I have not condoned the action under question, you are either suffering from a serious lack of reading comprehension or honesty. The actions of the judge were horrific. The environment in Iran that allows him to get away with those actions is horrific. Extrapolating that his actions are representative of Islam is not supported by evidence from the myriad Muslim societies around the world.
Reviewing these phrases of yours
that have already been demonstrated to be false, confirms that you suffer a defict in either your reading skills or honesty.
I’m not sure that’s how it happened.
The Brits fought over Poland, the French lost and handed their Jewish citizens over to the Nazis, and the US Congress declared war on Japan, which resulted in Hitler declaring war on the US.
Piffle, that’s simply ripping. I’ll see your piffle and raise you by a pish-tosh.
I haven’t seen a lot of attacks on Islam in general. Most attacks have been on the mullahs in Iran, Islamic FUNDAMENTALISM and on sharia law. Wanna defend 'em, fine, but you’re going to find yourself with a severe shortage of legs to stand on. Claims to contrary notwithstanding, Islamic fundamentalists make our American fundies look like the soul of sweetness and reason.
How many times have WE stoned women to death for adultery? Care to guess? Anyone? Beuhler? Anyone? Anyone? Care to guess how often they’ve done it in Iran? 15 times, according to this report. In 2002 they finally stopped the bloody practice, but it’s nice that death by prolonged hanging is still around to give the mullahs their jollies.
Care to bet he doesn’t represent the will of SOME of the people of Iran? I’ll bet a LOT of Iranians supported him. BTW, are you someone who automatically knows what “the will of the people” is? Must be great.
I’m all for better information. If you come across a better cite, sing out.
That’s nice to know. Hear that, everybody? TomnDebb is not a liberal or a Democrat! Staunch liberal Democrats like ME have no problem condeming this sort of shit, and the cultures that produce it.
We seem to be reading different threads. I have not seen anyone differentiate between the mullahs or fundamentalist Islam and Islam in general. I am also unclear how an attack on Shari’a is not an attack on Islam.
The language used throughout has been pretty vague, so perhaps different passages caught each of our attention. Talk about extirpating an entire culture does not lend itself to an appreciation for surgical distinctions between Islam and the Wahhabist movement.
I note that the following statements do not seem to be limited to Fundamentalist Muslims or the Iranian mullahs:
I suppose that, in retrospect, “Islamic fascism” could be defined as Fundamentalist Islam, but no such distinction had been made in the post.
On the other hand, you accused me of excusing the actions of another country when I specifically was pointing out that they were the actions of a single individual who had to break his own laws to carry out his wishes.
Given the lack of corroboration, thus far, it will be interesting to see vcarious reactions if it turns out that the story was actually fabricated by the Iranian opposition. I am not expecting that–the mullahs have a lot of blood on their hands–but it would still be interesting to watch.
Amnesty International is a nice start, but if that’s all there is, it won’t matter much. After re-reading one of the articles yet again, it looks to me like the girl was going to hang no matter what she said or didn’t say. She had no lawyer, and apparently could not get one. The judge tore into her about her clothing and appearance. He was already going to convict her for some moral corruptions nonsense. Then after all his bullshit, she must have objected and so was strung up for having a sharp tongue. It even went so far as lying about her age (22 instead of 16), so it would be “legal” to hang her. Just what they need, a group of self appointed gods, who do anything they please. Sorry, but they hung the wrong person. They should have lynched the judge. Evidently this sort of thing happens a lot. I wonder when someone there with any sense will say ENOUGH and starts hanging these judges. In public, by slow strangulation - no easy neck snap. That would be justice.
tomndebb Now why do I get the feeling the dishonesty lies on your side?
Yes, I have problems with religions. Including islam. I never pretended to otherwise.
You, on the other hand, try to condone the most horrible things done in the name of allah - [or whatever fucking god handy] - only to post later that, indeed, the actions of that judge were horrific…BUT…
No, it’s not. But you’re doing a grand job to convince us that it is.
Gum — are you reading the same thread I am? Because as an impartial observer, it seems to me that tomndebb is one of the few posters here arguing honestly, disinterestedly, and lucidly.
I see no intellectual dishonesty in his words. I see no place that tomndebb is condoning the actions of the judge. Are we reading the same thread, here, mate?
