Have fun, see ya later, don’t forget to pack a lunch.
I dunno. Projection?
You can point to the statement I made condoning any of the judge’s actions? Perhaps when I pointed out that he abused his law? Perhaps where I noted that he lied to the mullahs that review these trials?
I submit that if a person must twist and violate a law to achieve a goal then that person’s actions should not be used to condemn the society whose rules are being twisted and violated. There are many reasons to condemn the mullahs; this trial does not yet seem to be an example of one of them. At no time have I accepted or condoned the actions of that judge. I have made no statement that can be remotely construed as excusing his actions because he is from a different culture. I simply have not said that.
I have, however, suggested that it is not fair to condemn his culture for his actions if he is violating, rather than enforcing, that culture’s laws.
It seems TWOTfan is misinterpreting moral relativism.
tap tap Is this thing on?
I’m not the one cherry picking, no that seems to be you. When I hear someone saying something is his religious belief I do not engage in a discussion about various interpretations of the Bible/Korean/Torah or what have you not, no I suppose they speak the truth. I do that since I believe Islam, like all religions, are open to interpretation and there’re as many kind of Islams as there are Moslems. You on the other hand seem to insist there’s one true interpretation of Islam (and a lot of false – like the Judge’s). That’s dogmatic and hardly the mark of “fighting ignorance” as you have it. Even so I suppose you didn’t miss the part where the judge received the go ahead from the chief of the nation’s “judiciary branch” as well as the Islamic Republic’s Supreme Court. Apparently they didn’t deem the violations of due process grave enough to halt the strangulation under Islamic Sharia, why should you? And please don’t tell me you are doubting women’s’ lot is a goddamn miserable lot under Islamic Sharia law as practised and preached by fundamentalist Islam as the Taliban, Wahhabists and the Islamic republic of Iran, etc. You seem to think the Iranian Sharia laws are fine if just enacted correctly, it’s just that in this one instance the Judge did not follow them. The problem is not one single incompetent or corrupt judge – the whole system is corrupt.
I must agree with you that an attack on shariia is an attack on Islam. My belief is that that the shariia is recommended in the various Islamic holy books and could therefore be reasonably considered as part of Islam. These two items seem inseparable. As far as the shariia practiced in Iran, it has little to do with the Wahabbis. As I am sure you know, the Iranians are primarily Shiite and there is no love lost at all between Wahabbi and Shiite.
I understand your anticipation of finding this entire event was manufactured by the Iranian opposition. Many people (including myself) would be shuffling away from this thread and trying to act like it never happened. The hamsters would OD on embarassed smileys.
It would be equally interesting to see the reactions of other people if it turns out the judge gets to keep his post or is merely given a slap on the wrist for what was effectively the public murder of a teenage girl.
Regards
Testy
No, tomndebb. Projection is not my style. You said:
I’ll refer you to this. You said:
Probably incorrect, huh.
Sure. Why don’t we say the girl should have kept her mouth shut and let any fucker rape her? All she can do is ‘claim’ something, right? That is: If she can’t bring 4 male witnesses to the rape, correct?
The girl ought to be ashamed of herself, correct?
Well you go ahead and brand all of Islam fascistic, but that’s gonna be yourself speaking only – in retrospect. I think “Islamic fascism” is pretty clearly directed at extremist’s interpretation of Islam, such as the Taliban, Wahhabists and the Islamic republic (duh!) of Iran. Nobody has said the actions were representative of Islam everywhere, but you on the other hand say they are not representative of the Islamic rule in Iran. I say bollocks! This is the heart and soul of the Mullahs hell rule in Iran.
There is an important Mullah in Denmark who says that when the Moslems become a majority in Denmark we’ll have Sharia here too. That’ll include stoning of women and death for apostates (and slow strangulation I suppose) he says but it won’t matter because in a pure Islamic society there’ll be no crime. It reminds me of what you say; it’s entirely the judge’s fault because had the Sharia laws been followed diligently that girl would still be alive (though lashed thoroughly I suppose). I maintain the judge and the ruling is a direct product of the Mullahs Islamic rule, part and parcel of the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Well if an attack on Sharia (as understood everywhere I’ve seen it enacted and in Iran in particular – though I know there are other interpretations) if an attack on Sharia is an attack on Islam, then I attack Islam. But I can imagine an Islam without Sharia. tomndebb, are you saying Sharia laws should be accepted and respected?
The case has been confirmed by Amnesty International but if it had turned out the story had been invented by the Iranian opposition (living in refugee abroad since they’d face torture and death in Iran) it would be unfortunate since such inventions nearly invariable end up shooting yourself in the foot – but it wouldn’t alter the fact that the Iranian rule is an abomination.
No, but he does absolve the Mullahs and the Islamic Sharia laws from all responsibility. That’s like absolving Hitler for the Holocaust because he never personally killed anyone. True Hitler never persoanlly killed anyone, but he very much did create the conditions and society that enabled the holocaust, and the Mullahs very much created the society that send that little girl to slow strangulation.
The issue is not whether the judge was Muslim (or even “true” Muslim) but whether the judge’s actions could be considered representative of Islam in the way that they were treated in this thread.
Jack Chick and Fred Phelps and Ian Paisely are all Christians and I do not try to pretend that they are not. However, when one of them goes off on a hate trip, I do not use that to condemn all Christianity or call for its extirpation.
“Pretty clearly”? Nope. It seems to me that you were branding Islam “fascistic” and are now weaseling to claim you were only talking about the mullahs of Iran, even though you made no previous distinction. You made no distinction, when you originally posted, between the extremists and Islam, in general. You did not talk about Islamists or Islamic Fundamentalism, you merely referred to “Islamic fascists.”
Not in this thread I have not. I have pointed out that, as depicted, the mullahs granted approval for the execution based on false information. That does not absolve them of all responsibility; it simply notes that however evil they may be, we do not know what their decision would have been had they known the facts. Their decision appears to have been made without knowing that the trial was rigged and the defendant was a minor. In the context of condeming the society and the culture, it behooves us to do so based on their actual actions, not on what we speculate they would do. (As I have already noted, the mullahs are guilty of many terrible acts and I have condemned them for those acts in the past. I am simply distinguishing between condemning them for things they did and things they have not done. There is not yet evidence that they deliberately sanctioned the execution of a 16 year old girl for mouthing off to a judge.)
Actually, it still has not been confirmed. Subsequent to my comment, A.I. has expressed concern that it is true. I tend to think it will turn out to be true. In the passion of condemnation that characterized the first couple of pages, however, it would have been interesting to see the reactions of various posters if the story had turned out to have been manufactured.
.
And you continue to repeat the lie that she was charged for having been raped. This was pure speculation that was posted on the first page of this thread and carried forward by several people with no knowledge, but a lot of bile. You continue to repeat that claim even though the scanty evidence so far presented indicates that the sex was consensual teenage sex. In addition, the earlier claim was that she had been executed for the sex rather than for her speaking out to the judge, although the discussion has moved past that point, now. (Even you are now talking about her purported insolence rather than being executed for sex.)
I had thought that your reading skills needed work, but since you continue with the rape claim when I explicitly pointed out the point in contention (post #130), I must conclude that it is an issue of honesty.
No, the issue, part of it, was whether the ruling could be considered representative of the kind of Islam practised by the Islamic republic of Iran and other Muslim extremists in general. It can. I don’t know any of those persons you list, but if they were judges in a Christian Theocracy and gave comparable verdicts; I’d damn them to hell and declare them representative of the kind of Christianity preached by that Christian Theocracy.
And I told you, you were wrong, so it seems to me you are an idiot for continuing to insist otherwise. Islam fascists refer to the followers of Islamofascism, which is a byword for Islamists. I have no need to weasel anything. Do you think my views are so popular here on SDMB that I have a great need to avoid unpopular views? If I thought all Islam is fascism I would say so and I would probably had formulated it as “fascistic Islam” instead.
I don’t see the great interest. It wouldn’t have altered the fact that the Iranian Islamic republic is a hell hole. Just that some opposition group went and shot themselves in the foot.
. . . . .
Another example of the blessing of Iranian Sharia. Man fearing his wife wouldn’t be executed after indicting her for infidelity, stabs her to death – in the courtroom. The killer is sentenced to pay “blood money” – to himself, and then set free, for the sake of the children naturally. Think of the children.
http://www.iranmania.com/News/ArticleView/Default.asp?NewsCode=24795&NewsKind=Current%20Affairs
Feel free to surf on, the site is a veritable gold mine on Sharia as practised by the great Islamic Republic of Iran.
yah don’t think he’s part of his culture? He’s some kind of bizarre aberration of a culture that stoned at least 15 women to death between 1997 and 2002? I’d call him a fair expression of his culture.
It would take more than just a lunch. What do you suggest? A wagging finger and a stern lecture? A look of dismay with an exercise of hand wringing? A horrified cluck cluck? I’m open to suggestions. I don’t see how you get rid of these guys without an armed revolt or a purge.
Only just saw this. What a stupid question. Of course I’m fucking not. Didn’t you even read the post you were responding to, in which I expressed my disgust for what had happened?
Opposing cruel aspects of a culture != eradicating that culture. I oppose the death penalty. I don’t therefore think the entire culture of countries that execute people should be eradicated. Sheesh. :rolleyes:
tomndebb I really don’t give a flying fuck wether this girl was raped, [and please don’t tell me women aren’t stoned to death because they are raped. I’ll offer a lot of cites] had sex, or forgot to close her upper button on her blouse.
The fact that she was sentenced to death, by strangulation, by mr. judge himself, because he was pissed at her and she probably made a fool of him, [his HONOR, you know] should be enough for anyone to protest.
But, no…
You, and your fellow muslimites just say: Yes, it was atrocious what the judge did, BUT…
There’s the BUT… again.
It would be helpful, educational and above all honest to merely say: This is bad.
No ‘but’.
Here are some more examples of your precious sharia law:
The painful killing of helpless women in Mashad is not the only crime perpetrated by this regime against women in Iran. It was revealed some time ago, that mullah Kazem Montazer Moqaddam, head of the Revolutionary Court in Karaj (West of Tehran) and a number of officials in government departments and institutions in the city had sexually abused dozens of runaway girls on the pretext of protecting them (Hamshahri, February 4, 2001).
It was also revealed during the trial of a Revolutionary Guards commander, Esmail Eftekhari Nasr, the commander of the local urban Guards center in Tehran’s 12th district, that he and his subordinates had kidnapped a number of young girls and after raping them had murdered them dumped their bodies in different parts of Tehran. Eftekhari had also arrested ordinary citizens on the bogus charge of gambling and then sought sexual favors from their wives (Iran daily, April 16, 2001). The clerical regime arrested Eftekhari to put a lid on this scandal. In a show trial, however, he was sentenced to only five years in jail despite committing multiple murders, rape and extortion. The mullahs’ regime quickly hangs offenders who have committed only a fraction of Eftekhari’s crimes, but Eftekhari’s ties with senior figures in the regime saved him
http://www.iran-e-azad.org/english/ncr/2001/0422.html
Fuck allah. Fuck god. Fuck whomever, but most of all fuck those above mentioned bastards
And I would heartily oppose eradication of jjimm’s culture based on his repeating this inane comparison between Iran and the United States.
Originally posted by ** Jackmannii**
Too true. [I ought to say: amen, right? :D]
Gee thanks. I do think the other 64,999,999 of my fellow Britishers might be a bit pissed off about this.
I chose ‘countries’ as opposed to ‘the US’ advisedly, due to likely American whining. Guess it didn’t work.
An Iranian judge ordering the execution of a raped teenager is astronomically high on the authoritarian cruelty scale, but execution of its citizens by any state is still on the ladder of authoritarian cruelty in my book. YMMV.
No one who self-identifies as a “Britisher” should be allowed to express condemnation of any abuse occurring in another country, no matter how horrific, without being reminded of the thousands of civilian deaths that have occurred in Iraq thanks to British participation in the infamous War For Oil™.
You will no doubt agree that this is only fair, that whenever you post negatively on any American or other foreign policy the above will be reiterated, and that no whining will be countenanced. 
Jackie-boy, I think you just broke my Sarcasm-o-Meter, because I’m having problems parsing your post. Please find me where I said that one can’t have an opinion or criticise another culture’s barbarism because of certain barbaric aspects of one’s own. If you do, I promise I’ll eat these here words (since I don’t own a hat).
Ah, a strawman*.
No where did I say you couldn’t criticize others, only that if you do, it is right and proper for others to remind you of British barbarism in Iraq. Example:
jjimm: The world community should do more to pressure the Sudanese government to stop the killings there.
**Enlightened Poster**: Well, it should be remembered that the British facilitated the War For Oil™ in which thousands of Iraqi civilians have died. Both cases involve unjust wars; they're part of the same spectrum.
*I hear strawmen can be very tasty if properly seasoned. 
Nobody is saying this isn’t bad.
Nobody is saying stonings of raped women don’t happen in Iran.
Nobody is condoning the judge.
The problem is, you are arguing outside the facts of this case, and tomndebb and others are arguing with the information we have available about this case at the time. Judging by the evidence thus far, it seems to me that under the Iran Supreme Court, this woman should not have been sentenced to death, but because of the judge’s fabrication of the girl’s age, it was allowed to happen. The judge had to circumvent his own laws for the execution to take place.
To be absolutely honest, in this instance, I see more of a case of a rogue judge bent on vengeance than anything indicting Sharia or Iranian law. I’m not a Islamophile, nor am I an Islamophobe. I just think you have better incidents to choose from if you want to support your thesis of destroying Islamic culture. (Or whatever it is you’re arguing exactly.)