2011 NFC North

[Hamlet]

@Omniscient

I can’t decide if McCarthy is an excellent playcaller or if Rodgers is just so awesome that it wouldn’t matter who was calling the plays. Rodgers has a knack for completing passes to players that are by all definitions well covered. There were at least 4 occasions where Jennings and Finley were blanketed with an inside trail position and Rodger’s pass slipped just under or past a Bears defenders hands. 95% of QBs get that ball knocked down, and Rodger seems to do it on 3rd down almost exclusively.

I won’t argue that Aaron Rodgers is a very special QB.

@Omniscient

Also, I’m not sure that McCarthy so much as got matchups with Finely as the Bears were just gutted at an already shaky safety position. Without Chris Harris and Major Wright and starting Merriweather who’s still learning the system meant that there were a lot of openings for Finley where he shouldn’t have been.

On both his first and his third touchdowns, McCarthy had Finley line up as the furthest receiver to a side, not the usual position for a TE. Once he beat Tillman and once he beat Meriweather. I would call spreading Finley out like that creating a good matchup.

@Omni

Agreed somewhat on Martz.

I don’t like Martz, and I think, by and large, he and the Bears are one of the worst fits between OC and team ever, but I thought he called a pretty good game.

@Omni

The Bears pass protected shockingly well. Not sure how good this Packers pass rush is, but the Bears pretty much stoned it.

Capers seemed to me to stop relying on the blitz early in the game and went with more 3 or 4 man rushes and lying back in a zone. The Bears O Line had a good game in the pass protection (only 3 sacks).

@Omni

The defense was as expected and they turned it up late in the game when they needed to. Give them tons of credit, they made some mistakes at the safety positions due to injury and inexperience, but the front 7 and CBs all played out of their heads. Holding the Packers to 27 points with so little offense, poor field position and nearly a 2 to 1 ToP differential is a major accomplishment.

We see things differently. I wouldn’t consider giving up 27 points, 300 yards passing, 100 yards rushing, 24 first downs, and only 2 sacks an accomplishment. The two turnovers were very nice plays and one of the major reasons this game wasn’t a blowout, but I liked what the Packers were able to do against the Bears D. Maybe it’s the lowered expectation from their great defensive play in years past against Rodgers and the Packers, but I was fine with how the offense did.

@Omni

I’m not sure you can completely abandon the run regardless of how ineffective it is, so that’s still a black mark on Martz.

Well, Forte did have 7catches for 80 yards, so I think there was still an effort to get him the ball, just not in the traditional running game (which really isn’t his Forte anyway).

@Omni

I heard that comment, but it’s still a horrific abortion of a call. The ref threw the flag from the 5 yard line well after Graham lost contact with the gunner. Graham wasn’t within 15 yards of anyone. Graham commented on the contact at the line of scrimmage, the flag came WAY after that and wasn’t thrown by the line judge closest to the play. It’s a fucking mystery and it ruined what should have been the signature play of the season thus far.

He admitted he grabbed him. The flag was thrown and commented on before Knox even had the ball. Sure it wiped out an amazing play, but an “abortion of a call”? Not even close.

@Omni

I’m sure you’ll take this with a grain of salt, but it was a pretty indisputable call. Clay Matthews had Cutler around the legs after the ball was loosed. The opposite LB, can’t remember his name, came from the opposite side and launched his shoulder pad into Cutler’s head. It was pretty ugly. It was late and he launched into the QBs head. Could have been flagged for either.

I have no problem taking your word for it.

@Omni

The Peppers play was close but I think it’s fair to say that at worst the evidence was insufficient to overturn it. I think he corralled it before he got to the line, but obviously I’m biased.

As am I. It’s one of the dozens of calls (like the holding call) that involve judgment calls made quickly, and it’s hard to condemn refs for them. I think they got it wrong, but Starks should’ve held onto the fucking ball anyway.

T

@Omni

hat Hester play was probably the most infuriating though. It would have changed the game and if Woodson didn’t interfere with him then there’s a serious issue with the rules. This wasn’t some incidental tangling of the feet, he got beat and responded by running right into him. It had me Dio level apoplectic.

I thought it was incidental contact, as did the announcers I was listening to. :shrug:

@Omni

Could have been a Packers blowout, but it also could have been a Bears win or at least a last second game. If those two huge calls go the other way, Hester & punt return, it’s a 14 point swing. Also, if Knox catches one of those 2 easy catches it’s still probably a much different outcome. Ifs and Buts. The Bears have some serious problems and it still was pretty close, the Packers better not get full of themselves.

Don’t get me wrong, the Packers have weaknesses. Clifton isn’t looking too good, Collins being injured hurts the secondary a ton, and Clay Matthews hasn’t looked as awe inspiring as he usually does. And the Packers always need to check against arrogance. But this game wasn’t nearly as close as you seem to think, and I’ll take 3-0 over 1-2 any day.

@Omni

Gotta beat the Panthers for sure, a huge game with the Lions follows that. If we head to the bye 3-2 I’ll count that as a big positive.

I don’t know how much the weather was to blame, but Cam didn’t have a good game this week. The Bears should beat them.

[Omniscient]

@Hamlet

I thought it was incidental contact, as did the announcers I was listening to. :shrug:

What were you listening to? Aikman and Buck were pretty much agreed that it was a mysterious no call. They said “I guess they are saying it was incidental” as an explanation, but they weren’t selling that at all. I can’t stand those guys but they gave a pretty strong impression that they thought it was a bad call. They even went so far as to accuse the refs of giving the Bears a “make up call” on the next play from scrimmage. Tough to rationalize that as them agreeing with it.

Unless you were listening to the Packers local radio broadcast I’m stumped here.

[Omniscient]

@Hamlet

He admitted he grabbed him. The flag was thrown and commented on before Knox even had the ball. Sure it wiped out an amazing play, but an “abortion of a call”? Not even close.

The Tribune posted a video of the play here: http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/ct-spt-0926-bears-side-defense-special-teams--20110926,0,6025170.story

Watch it. You can see Graham, number 21, the blocker on the Bears’ right side. You see him running alongside the gunner throughout the play with no contact. You see the flag come in from the back judge simultaneous with the catch. The only place contact could have been made is at the snap, 50 yards from the ref who threw the flag several seconds before he actually threw it.

The Bears always own up to things and don’t make excuses to the media. Graham is toeing the company line here. And when you see him discuss it in the locker room he’s not nearly as contrite about it as it reads in print because he thought it was ticky tack at best.

This call is an atrocity.

[Gangster_Octopus]

i will make a few comments on the packers-Bears game:

The roughing the passer call was a good call,but I think a little unfortunate. Matthews got Cutler around the hip and Cutler is going down when he gets nailed in the head by I can’t remember who. I actually thought who hit him didn’t target Cutler, but he hit Cutler in the head nonetheless. Cutler’s head was lower than it normally would have been, but I still think the ref has to make that call.

Hester/Woodson non-call: I definitely think that was pass interference and should have been called. Woodson basically blocked Hester off, nothing incidental about it.

Fumble recovery: Too hard to tell from replay, I THINK he was out, but definitely not enough to go on and very close either way.

Shields/Hester: the refs got this right. Hester grabbed Shields facemask, Shield gave him a little two handed shove then Hester slapped Shields. Shields really didn’t do that much.

Punt return: Wow, the Packers special teams are clueless and the Bears ran a great play. The penalty certainly seems dubious at best.

McCarthy: I actually hated McCarthy’s play calling in the red zone. There were three times they were in or near the 10 and they Packers ran it twice each time, even though the run game was not effective except in spurts. Two times they got field goals, the third time they got the TD, but it was infuriating. And I hate the fact that the Packers never seem to take advantage of 2nd and short to take a shot downfield. The Bears did a good job of denying most of the downfield stuff.

Cutler: Cutler was awful, he was missing wide open guys all over the place. Clearly he is not comfortable and his head or mechanics are all screwed up.

Rodgers: Great game by Rodgers. He made some throws that I thought were throwaways but were clearly throws to where only his receivers could make a play. I don’t know if there is a more accurate passer on the run than Rodgers.

A very good win for the Packers. It is always very tough to beat the Bears in Soldier Field. I do hope the Packers can get their pass coverage solved because I am not happy with it. If Cutler had been even somewhat accurate the Bears would have been a lot more effective. Too many open guys. Grant looked very good, but I don’t think we should go away from the two back system right now. Nice to see Finley have a massive game.

[furt]

@Omniscient

I think he’s gonna be Eric Crouch.

That’s only if, like Couch, he insists on being a QB. If he embraces the change from the get-go, I don’t see why he couldn’t convert and have a Josh Cribbs-like career.

[Least_Original_User_Name_Ever]

@furt

That’s only if, like Couch, he insists on being a QB. If he embraces the change from the get-go, I don’t see why he couldn’t convert and have a Josh Cribbs-like career.

Agreed. He has special speed and running ability. If he can catch passes, which I have no clue if he can do, he’d be a Dexter McCluster-type of player.

[Gangster_Octopus]

@Hamlet

I don’t know how much the weather was to blame, but Cam didn’t have a good game this week. The Bears should beat them.

The weather played a huge part, Cam did pretty well considering the circumstances. The Bears should be careful.

[DadWagonDriver]

@Hamlet

And Martz. I’m actually kinda torn on him in this game because it clearly wasn’t his fault that (Joey Harrington/Alex Smith) threw those interceptions, the WR dropped passes, and that the O Line couldn’t run block. I actually thought he called a pretty good game and the O line by and large did a good job in pass protection. I don’t know why Bears fans would want more running plays called when (Kevin Jones/Frank Gore) couldn’t even average 1 ypc. I don’t blame Martz for their inconsistency yesterday, I think it was on the players who didn’t execute and made mistakes.

Stop believing that Mike Martz is anything but an utter piece of shit as a coach. Looking back at his career, I’m flummoxed that the Rams won a Super Bowl with him as the OC. His track record since then has led to fans making the exact same excuses that you made up there. I said the same thing as a Lions fan, and 49ers fans said the same when he was there.

The run blocking is his fault; he designed the plays. Apparently, without HoF (or near-HoF) players at nearly every position, his offense doesn’t work.

[Omniscient]

@furt

That’s only if, like Couch, he insists on being a QB. If he embraces the change from the get-go, I don’t see why he couldn’t convert and have a Josh Cribbs-like career.

I don’t recall Crouch trying to be a QB. He was drafted as a WR IIRC and I assume he did WR drills at the combine.

[Hamlet]

@wmulax93

Stop believing that Mike Martz is anything but an utter piece of shit as a coach. Looking back at his career, I’m flummoxed that the Rams won a Super Bowl with him as the OC. His track record since then has led to fans making the exact same excuses that you made up there. I said the same thing as a Lions fan, and 49ers fans said the same when he was there.

I think you’re confusing my saying he called an OK game and me saying he’s a good coach all the time. I’m on record not liking him as an OC, and agreeing with much of what you said. The problems the Bears offense had yesterday was not, in my estimation, Martz’s fault, it was Cutler’s lack of accuracy, poor run blocking, and mistakes by the WR crew.

@wmulax

The run blocking is his fault; he designed the plays. Apparently, without HoF (or near-HoF) players at nearly every position, his offense doesn’t work.

Omni was opining in a prior post that Martz doesn’t have much to do with the line blocking, that’s Tice’s job. And I’m not sure it’s coaching that led to the shitty ypr, it was the O Line.

[fiddlesticks]

@Omniscient

The Tribune posted a video of the play here: http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/ct-spt-0926-bears-side-defense-special-teams--20110926,0,6025170.story

This call is an atrocity.

In that video I see Bush getting tugged at at about 0:02 under the Fox Box ™ just before the producer switches from the behind the punter cable shot to the sideline shot (the contact is over at that point). It’s ticky-tack, especially when you compare it to the mugging Fox highlighted earlier in the game that didn’t draw a flag, but hardly an atrocity. Tough work being a gunner.

[Least_Original_User_Name_Ever]

@Omniscient

I don’t recall Crouch trying to be a QB. He was drafted as a WR IIRC and I assume he did WR drills at the combine.

I think Crouch also participated in quarterback drills as well. That doesn’t really refute anything, but it’s another data point, reliant on my memory.

[Omniscient]

@fiddlesticks

In that video I see Bush getting tugged at at about 0:02 under the Fox Box ™ just before the producer switches from the behind the punter cable shot to the sideline shot (the contact is over at that point). It’s ticky-tack, especially when you compare it to the mugging Fox highlighted earlier in the game that didn’t draw a flag, but hardly an atrocity. Tough work being a gunner.

I see what you’re talking about, and while I don’t see a tug, Graham and Bush are at least in contact. That the flag came out another 35 yards down the field by the wrong official really makes it hard for me to accept that that is the hold that was called.

@Least_Original_User_Name_Ever

I think Crouch also participated in quarterback drills as well. That doesn’t really refute anything, but it’s another data point, reliant on my memory.

I remember when Crouch came out, draftniks pretty much dismissed any chance of him being a QB and the Martz Rams certainly didn’t view him as a candidate there at all when they drafted him. I think Crouch may have changed course after realizing that he was even less of an NFL WR than he was a NFL QB and insisted that he get a shot there after he bounced around some.

[DadWagonDriver]

@Hamlet

I think you’re confusing my saying he called an OK game and me saying he’s a good coach all the time. I’m on record not liking him as an OC, and agreeing with much of what you said. The problems the Bears offense had yesterday was not, in my estimation, Martz’s fault, it was Cutler’s lack of accuracy, poor run blocking, and mistakes by the WR crew.

After I posted, I realized that I attacked you a bit with that post. Sorry about that part of it; that’s not exactly my posting style. I’m more just angry that anyone defends Martz. I utterly despise him as a coach, and I don’t know how he keeps getting jobs. He gets quarterbacks killed and refuses to run the ball. He delegates O-Line play to another coach, but doesn’t seem to actually work with that coach to make the play of one unit mesh with the play of another.

But, Jesus, the last part of the post I just quoted looks just like what we used to say in Detroit. Is it really the lack of accuracy from Harrington/Smith/Cutler that’s the problem? Is it bad hands from Lions/49ers/Bears receivers that’s the problem? We blamed the QB and the receiving corps for years in Detroit, and I’m becoming less convinced that it was entirely the players’ fault. I think Martz puts his players in bad/dangerous positions, and I’m not convinced the players are willing to sell out their bodies for him any longer.

[Gangster_Octopus]

Omni, Here’s your hold.

[Hamlet]

While I wouldn’t mind spending even more time discussing how and why the Packers beat the Bears, I think we should move on to this weekend’s games. To be honest, I don’t see a lot of excitement this weekend, but that’s the great thing about the NFL, you rarely get what you expect.

Packers v. Broncos

Two word phrases that scare me this weekend: “Should be”. This game “should be” a win for the Packers. “Trap game”. The Packers are facing a “trap game” and shouldn’t look forward to the Falcons next week. “Von Miller”. Oh look, “Von Miller” is sitting on Aaron Rodgers’ head again. “He’s injured”. Brian Bulaga? “He’s injured”. Nick Collins? “He’s injured”. Ryan Grant? “He’s injured”.

In all seriousness though, the Broncos are a tougher team than last year, and have played three close games this year. They’ve also been missing some of their pieces to injury, including Champ Bailey. But I don’t think they’re closers yet. And the Packers have been killer against the run, which is what John Fox wants to do. I think the Packers do get a win by a healthy margin this weekend.

Bears v. Panthers

Another “should win” for the NFC North. Odd little tidbit: The Bears and Panthers have both scored exactly 60 points this season, and given up 69 and 68 points respectively. While that may indicate that the game could be close, the Bears were playing top of the line teams and the Panthers were facing the lowly Cards and Jaguars. We’ll learn a bit this weekend. Is Cam patient enough for the Cover 2? Will Panthers OC dial up the passes to take advantage of a weak secondary? Can the Bears get a running game going? But, really, the Bears are simply a better team and the Panthers, although fun to watch, aren’t there yet. If the Bears don’t win, I’ll laugh my ass off, but they will.

Vikings v. Chiefs

How the fuck do you let your best player get only 5 touches in the second half of a game you’re winning. Is Leslie Frazier that dumb? Did he forget he has Adrian Peterson? Either way, the Vikings need to right this ship to stay in the race. Luckily, they get the 0-3 Chiefs. Unluckily, it’s in Arrowhead Stadium, one of the tougher places to play. And the Chiefs are still stinging from their losses. I fear this could be a dogshit game, with a couple of inept teams flailing away at each other. If not, though, I expect Peterson to have 30 carries and 170 yards, and McNabb to stop fucking up. The Chiefs don’t have much on offense going yet this year. I think the Vikings straighten up, play a tough second half, and eke out a win against a desperate team with an even more desperate coach. I don’t think I’ll waste much time watching this game, though.

Lions v. Cowboys

I like the Lions, I hate the Cowboys, so guess whom I’m rooting for. I think this game will tell us a lot about both teams. If the Lions can go into Dallas and get a convincing win, I think it’ll show they are for real, with an honest shot at the playoffs. If they lose, it won’t be the end, though, because it’s a tough road game against at 2-1 team. The Vikings exposed the Lions a bit last week by jumping out to a 20-0 lead at halftime before choking it all away, so it’s not gimme. The Cowboys haven’t been very convincing in their wins, but they’ve been banged up and had to rely on comebacks for their wins. I think this game will be close, and come down to who has the ball last. I’m not sure the Lions defense can get it done down the stretch against the Cowboys, so I’ll take the home team in a close one.

The Lions game intrigues me the most of all these games. Kinda a down week for my interest in the NFC North though. But, it’s the NFL. Anything can happen.

[Omniscient]

There are currently 2 undefeated teams in the league. Both in the NFC North, though hopefully the Broncos can trim that number to one.

[gonzomax]

I would not recommend that the Lions keep winning that way. It makes for good TV but it is dangerous.
4-0 is a good start for the playoffs.

[Gangster_Octopus]

Against my better interests I found myself rooting for the Lions. Probably a combinations of Cowboy hate and years of not worrying about the Lions. I need to learn to root against the Lions.

[kenobi_65]

@Gangster_Octopus

Against my better interests I found myself rooting for the Lions. Probably a combinations of Cowboy hate and years of not worrying about the Lions. I need to learn to root against the Lions.

Yeah, they’re looking very real.

Packer offense continues to be very strong. Packer pass defense continues to look very confused.