In a perfectly virtuous world, my dear I would advice virtue, but in a perfectly vicious world, I can recommend nothing but vice
Madame DuBois, Justine, Marquis DeSade
One of my greatest ‘therapy’ issues and indeed issues on this board is dealing with fairness and equality. Of course, my personal belief in Jesus and Christianity leads me to the ultimate Golden Rule of treating others like you would be treated yourself, and the old standby, “the meek shall inherit the earth”, but it seems like this path leads to being a doormat and/or getting the short end of the stick in every situation. And as I understand it, this ultimate compassion is also a part of Buddhism and Judiasm, and I assume Wiccan and any other number of belief systems, excluding Sadism and true Satanism which believes in the power of self (I think)
I know the world isn’t fair, but why isn’t it ever unfair in my favor?
Calvin
If someone is rude, disrespectful, mean, selfish to me, it inspires a similar response, and never, in my short life have I experienced a person of this caliber CHANGING in response to kind, compassionate behavior. In fact, sometimes it makes it WORSE because they assume I’m patronizing or being condescending. Nothing is accomplished. I understand that 50,000 wrongs don’t make a right, but at some point I begin to wonder how much abuse and maltreatment I have to put up with. Because when someone is a jackass to me and I return it with softness of heart, I don’t feel all warm inside, I feel like I’ve “lost” the upperhand and very often the arguement. Inevitably, kindness and compassion involves conceding the point, or forgiving the cruelty, or granting a victory.
I was recently asked in the Pit to “cut someone some slack” and “stop being so mean”, when in fact, I felt the OP was being mean and not cutting people slack. So in essence I was asked to overlook their behavior and change mine.
Surly looks out for one guy…SURLY
The Simpsons
So in this world, where it’s growing more and more acceptable to be ‘looking out for number one’, what’s to be gained from living a life of virtue, or even attempting it? My heavenly reward? Then why even live? Smug self righteousness? It isn’t becoming. Because it’s beginnig to seem that living that way ends with weakness, poverty and a life in the back of the line. Of course earthly rewards shouldn’t be important, but one needs things to get along in life. And I believe we’re entitled to a certain amount of comfort and joy.
The question is, is it time to take the Marquis DeSade’s philosophy of a life of vice and self to heart? Man. I hope not.
We, however, live in neither. It may help to think of it in Prisoner’s Dilemma terms.
(Brief summary: You and one other person can either cooperate or betray each other. If you both cooperate, you both win. If you both betray each other, you both lose. If one cooperates and the other betrays, one really wins and one really loses.)
Now, normally, we do forgive and forget, because most people, given a chance, will get that it’s best to cooperate over the long term. But some people don’t get this, and refuse to cooperate. If the choice is between losing a little and losing a lot, most people choose to answer them in turn. However, the best (in game theory) way to deal with such people is not to play.
To demetaphorize: For most people, be soft-spoken and gentle. But, when you get a person who insists on being a jerk, simply don’t deal with or respond to them.
Except, the world is swinging towards having more jerks than anything else, it seems that we have no choice but to deal with them,do business with them, live with them, work with them. And I don’t mean people who actively pull your hair or swear or are rude, but people who live by the “look out for number one” philosophy, who aren’t compassionate, who are selfish, who have a sense of entitlement, arrogance…it’s the norm these days.
To get along it seems that even the kindest, most compassionate folk will have to bend to jerk will.
Evil will always triumph over good because good is dumb.
-Dark Helmet
Being nice is fine but all too often people expect “compassion” and “tolerance” when what they really mean is that others should overlook their incompetance or tolerate their stupidity. Cooperation is also fine but you need to bring something to the table. If in your mind cooperation means “I do it for you” well, that doesn’t provide me with any incentive to help you, does it?
I don’t understand who you think is being a “jerk” to you if you don’t mean the rude or obnoxious? People who don’t indulge your ignorance or laziness? People who outperform you? Who exactly are you talking about?
I do mean the rude or obnoxious, and I don’t have any idea where you got the idea that I wanted people to ‘indulge my ignorance or laziness’.
Jerk, is casual description, I suppose of those who don’t live the ‘philosophical’ life of virtue, i.e., putting others before yourself, concern for other people’s feelings, walking a mile in their shoes.
A physical example of this is people who don’t merge in construction when driving. Driving up the shoulder to where the merge point is, is wrong, rude and unfair to those of us in traffic, and yet, invariably, someone is kind enough to let them merge into the lane, and their assholishness was rewarded, and I’m still five cars back, forced to wait. So my virtue of behaving the signs that say “merge now” or ‘left lane ends in 1/2 mile’ ended up screwing me.
(Of course, that’s a tiny example, no biggie in the grand scheme of life)
It seems like you don’t really want to lead a life of vice, regardless of whether it might be to your advantage. Life isn’t a game that you try to win by getting the most stuff or being meaner than others and getting away with it; the point of life is to become the person you want to be. (I think so, anyway) And maybe the person you want to be won’t have as much of certain things as the hypothetical Vice-Jarbabyj, and maybe she’ll have to put up with more crap, but you’ll be the person you want to be.
However, I don’t think the Golden Rule means you must be a doormat. Sometimes the best thing you can do for someone is to let them face the consequences of their actions. If someone is a jerk to you, you don’t have to patronize their business or associate with them. If you decide their jerkishness is worth putting up with in order to get something else you want, then recognize that you choose to tolerate them out of your own free will. I don’t think returning jerkishness in kind will be any more likely to get you what you want; it’ll just make you a jerk, and probably a less effective one than people who have been practicing at it their whole lives.
I have. Sometimes are just upset about something, or having a bad day. There’s examples on this board, at least in GD there are; people who have hated each other’s guts over some political point end up being respectful and friendly after someone extends the olive branch. One person insults the other and they respond mildly and the first person apologizes. Not always, but it does happen. I have found that courteous behavior is usually more likely to get someone to back down than returning insults in kind.
Being fairly youngish, I don’t know if this is really true. I’m wondering how you know it’s true? Do you really think people are getting meaner? Or are you just becoming more cynical as you grow more aware and interact with more people?
Eternity makes the years we spend here on Earth seem like a nanosecond. If you believe that the meek shall have everlasting life, then why let a nanosecond worth of pain and heartache deprive you of the “prize” waiting for you at the end?
Maybe your nice behavior has no impact on the rude and disrespectful. But maybe your behavior impacts those who are spectators. There’s a person in my lab that almost everyone hates and talks shit about ALL THE TIME. And there’s another person who refrains from making negative comments about this person and tries to steer the conversation to other topics when we get into our bitchfests. This virtuous person has had a positive impact on me through her actions, and now I’m striving to be more courteous and forgiving. The effect: more goodness on the planet.
I think you’re wrong that there’s no gain from living a life of virtue. People who are kind and generous have friends. When they get sick, they can always depend on someone to look after them. Virtuous people receive the benefit of the doubt when others will not (look at how everyone treats Polycarp). Virtuous people don’t have to deal with the stress that comes with lying and deception and mind games. Plus, they have clear consciences. These may not be tangible benefits, but they are benefits nonetheless.
People who live a life of vice aren’t necessarily on easy street (take Martha Stewart, for instance).
I’m sure I’m getting more cynical as I grow older. When you’re young, and in Sunday School or whathaveyou, you’re taught “Be nice to folks and they’ll be nice to you” Not really the case. Usually it’s “be nice and be taken advantage of”. Sure, people will take care of me when I’m sick, I hope, but even in my friend group I see my husband and I and our kindness not necessarily abused, but assumed “Jessica will drive us there”, “Jessica will take care of our cats”, “Jessica will figure out the bill every time we’re at dinner” “Jessica will host a party” “Jessica will help us move” and i always do, because it’s nice…but somehow, when I have to move, everyone’s busy…when I can’t host pot luck this week, there ISN’T one, and when I’m not out organizing something I must be “not feeling well” or “crabby” because I’m not falling all over myself for them.
What I see is that there is NO CONSEQUENCE for small vices. Yes, some murderers and philanderers go to jail. But a lot of wife beaters and people who cheat on their wives, and drunk drivers, and people who abuse animals do not.
People get extra change back or bank errors in their favor and don’t return it and don’t get caught. I DO return it, and I’m out twenty bucks. A friend of mine received $500 credit accidentally at a hotel downstate. he didn’t return it. “Their mistake” he says. No consequence
I would be eaten alive by guilt and remorse. I would return it.
Jar, this is where I think your reasoning breaks down.
Ask yourself why you feel yourself to be competing with everyone you meet. Why should someone else’s opinion or rudeness bother you? It’s not you being rude…it’s a stranger or that guy in the next lane. I see people get upset all the time by the actions of people they don’t know and it always seems to me that those who are so affected seem to be constantly putting themselves against others and not with them. So those people who are rude that you don’t know (if you do know them that’s another story) aren’t worth your time to be upset about.
I sorta quote Death (form Sandman): “It’s just as easy to be nice as creepy. And way more fun.”
The simple fact is that being kind and considerate takes more strength than being rude and mean (evidenced by the relative number of people who are both). And it makes the world go around.
I try, very hard, to be kind in my behavior at all times. When someone is rude I tell myself that they must not be very happy (that’s snarky of me, I know) to act so poorly.
Heck, you can even see this in small children. Most of them are giggling happy helpful little elves. I take that to mean that the default state of humanity is happiness and kindness. So to metamorphose into a person who is usually mean-spirited takes some effort.
So stay kind. You will be:
A) Keeping your own spirits up.
B) Setting a good example to others.
C) Raising the ‘niceness’ quotient in your area.
Well, here’s the thing…you said ‘I try very very hard’ to be nice. So those of us who are kind and nice have to work really really hard and shoulder the burden of ‘raising the nice quotient’ in our area, while others can go around being dicks and reap the benefits of the nice? It’s not fair.
And your quote from sandman about being nice being more fun…I have to disagree…
Wouldn’t it be more fun to have sex with everyone I meet, be high all the time, lay around and watch t.v. and not work, spend all my money on material things, exceed the speed limit and watch porn? At least for a while, and on the surface, that seems like a lot more “FUN”.
Saying “Yes, I’ll take care of your cats for three weeks while you’re off in Aruba” doesn’t sound fun.
I know it helps some people to think that there are consequences for vice. “What comes around, goes around.”
Maybe your friend who accepted the $500 credit will have to owe twice as much in taxes this year. Maybe the person who cut you off on the road this morning will have a flat tire on their way home this afternoon. Maybe there are consequences, and you just can’t see them or explain their existence in rational way.
I don’t how true this way of thinking is. In fact, I sometimes think people hold on to this old saw in a self-righteous fashion. I know someone who is always sick and battling personal drama, and yet whenever one of her “enemies” stumbles, she loves to say, “What comes around, goes around”. Apparently her own troubles are merely coincidental, not the result of her own bad behavior.
If you believe in God, you’re supposed to trust that He will mete out justice somehow, someway. If you know that He’s always watching, it shouldn’t matter to you how it seems the jerks can get away with murder. He’s watching them too.
I have to agree that life isn’t a competition. My personal philosophy is to be able to sleep with what I’ve done that day, largely because my vision of the afterlife is to relive the emotions and events of your life forever, which can probably get pretty annoying if you are a jackass to people. It would be stupid to say something like “live without regret,” because you’ll always regret doing (or not doing) something, no matter how you live.
Just remember that life isn’t a competition - no one can take away part of you. Sure, you can be used as a doormat. There is nothing wrong with that. Few religions say “When you are struck, punch the other guy in the face.” Even the old “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth” adage doesn’t need to be taken literally.
For record, as you presumed, the Wiccan rede is pretty standard. It generally goes something along the lines of “Do as you will, an (if) it harm none” (plus or minus some “archaic” thou, wilt, etc that some people throw in)… pretty similar to the Golden Rule, though a bit more open. The concept is the same, and I find in my studies, it is a pretty general concept throughout humanity.
Interesting thought - this thread ties in to a great deal with the “Why is there religion” thread. monstro’s comment about having faith has a good deal to do with it - when you are religious enough to have that much faith in your god, it makes life a lot easier and less stressful than having to be on your guard against everyone else and fighting all the time.
Well parts of life ARE a competition. And if someone says (I’m an actress) “I’m going to blow the director and get the part your up for”, then I lose the competition because I refuse to behave that way.
And what happens to blow job actress? She gets the role in the play. I get nothing.
If I’m living to have a great afterlife, are we saying we’re on earth just to work towards a super neat death? Let’s end it now then…before I can screw up any more.
Unfortunately for jarbaby and the rest of society, the Nash Equilibrium of the classic Prisoner’s Dilemma is for both parties NOT to cooperate. So by cooperating (i.e. nice instead of nasty right back), she really is being taken advantage of.
Sorry…I didn’t mean to single you in particular. I meant “you” as in “people” in general.
I forget who’s post I looked at, but I got the impression that they mean “jerks” as someone who is not necessarily obnoxious by behavior (ie swearing or name calling) but someone who simply looked out for their own best interests or did not care about other people.
Let me give you an example. In business school, a girl in my class needed some help on some stats problem. She would bug me every time she saw me to help her out. Well, I decided to be a ‘jerk’ not because I was rude to her at all, but because I decided that there was no ‘value-added’ to my life by taking time out of my busy schedule to show her an elementary stats problem. If she was someone whos company I enjoyed or I thought she might be usefull later, maybe I would have helped. Does that make me a ‘jerk’?
One does not necessarilly have to believe in God (or believe that God would do anything if you did believe in him) for that. You just have to realize what is really important and that every slight or insult does not need to be reciprocated.
eek. Your criteria for helping someone is if they can be useful to you? No altruism? I try awfully hard (again with the fruitless effort) to be nice and helpful to folks I don’t even know. Helping people on the street looking at maps, giving change to the homeless, blah blah blah.
Well, I’m not coming at this from a Christian viewpoint I admit. But little of what you define strikes me as being outside the whole ‘nice/mean’ thing.
Sex? Fun! Why should anyway care if you have it all the time? I might suggest that if you think it’s bad you should spend some time thinking about why. Sex is one of the pure joys we have as humans. Too many people get it all mixed up with jealousy and possessiveness and it gets twisted and bad. But it doesn’t have to be that way.
The others (materialism, getting high, etc) all strike me as having long-term consequences (I speak as a guy who spent much of his teens higher than a kite and ended up watching too many pals burn out).
I don’t think that giving in or being a doormat is required by the golden rule. In fact I think it violates it. Imagine if you were being a jerk, would you want people to cave in to you? Wouldn’t it be better if they acted in such a way that ensured you wouldn’t behave like a jerk again? Just being nice to people unconditionally isn’t good for them. People need to understand that nice people aren’t just favor vending machines. There is no virtue in being a favor vending machine.
I would love to live in a world where people are rational, kind, creative and unwilling to tolerate jerks, blowhards and willfully ignornat boring people. To that end I think I have to act as if already in that world, as if already a citizen of it. Otherwise there isn’t much of a point. If that world can’t be attained then the whole of human existence is fairly pointless.
I’m not sure how well this ports over to Christianity and the belief that the meek will inherit the earth. Still I don’t think that any reasonable moral system demands that you deal with jerks in such a way that they can continue to be jerks.
As for the gain of definite things yes there is a slight disadvantage for people who prefer virtue over gain. This is because there is usually a slight advantage for those who prefer gain when they compete with somebody who has something rated higher than gan. It can produce situations where the least qualified gets the job, and hopefully that in and of itself will rectify the situation. When it doesn’t you have to remember you went with what you prefer and that you can with effort find others who prefer talent to blowjobs or what ever other specifics are relevant.
Jarbabyj, nice people get walked all over the same way that nice guys never get the girl. Nice guys do get the girl, but they can’t be pathetic, no-self-esteem nice guys, they have to be interesting, self assured nice guys.
You feel you’re getting walked all over because you’re nice, but it’s really because you let people walk on you. People make demands of you, you have to say no, but you can say no nicely. If there’s no pot-luck party without you organizing it, let there be no pot-luck, it’s ok. If someone has to find alternate lodgings for their cat, so be it. That doesn’t make you a jerk.
Note something here, when msmith asked if jerks are people who indulged lazyness, you said no. However, much of your niceness can be considered indulging your friends’ lazyness.
You need to take control of your life, being nice isn’t being a doormat, it isn’t a burden to be borne, it’s just an attitude.
