A life of vice or virtue?

Great Debates
21

Let’s take that example. Say a nice person asked you to take care of his cats. Assuming you can expect him to repay the favor later, it’s a good idea to say yes.
If he’s not, it’s a good idea to say no, and tell him that it’s because he’s been a jerk in the past that you will not do a favor for him now. But if it’s a person you don’t know? I say do the favor anyway. Even if there are more jerks than non-jerks in the world, the only way to keep everyone from becoming a jerk is to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Also: This is all risk-benefit analisys. You are under no obligation to any favors for anyone, and if you don’t want to take care of the cats, then you don’t need to take care of the damn cats.

It sounds like you’ve been burned recently, not with a torch but with a thousand matches. Perhaps your social circle simply includes a high number of jerks. Have you considered finding some less selfish people, and hanging out with them for a while?
<slicks back hair>
Speaking of which, what are you doing tonight? :wink:

22

It’s too bad that they teach that in Sunday School because it not really Christian dogma. Christianity has no room for karma. The Bible and Tradition actually teach that you should do good regardless of the consequences and that quite often your good deeds will bring you hardship rather than reward.

I know the feeling but maybe you should look at it another way. Do you know what my wife does when someone tailgates her? She speeds up and then moves over. I was furious with her the first time I saw her do this until she explained herself. It only took her a little bit of effort to get out of the way for the person behind her while I would have gone to much greater effort in order to make it difficult for the person had they been tailing me (I’d have slowed down or slammed the brakes). My way would have made both me and the person behind me angry - her way made both of them happy. And maybe (she says) the person had a legitimate reason to hurry (hospital, late for work, chasing after thier true love who is on the next plane for Asia). There have been many times that I have been in hurry. I think that the comment earlier in this thread is a good point in that maybe we think people are being jerks more often then they are because we fail to identify with them as people. This is really the ultimate Christian virtue as expressed by Christ in “love your neighbor as yourself.” Your particular example is proof of this. Maybe the person merging in construction didn’t see the signs early enough or maybe they had been tring to get over and weren’t able to do so. This has happened to me and I am sure that it has happened to you. If that is the case then you did a great thing by letting them in and I am sure they appreciated it. If it is not the case then as a Christian you should still give them the benefit of doubt because as the Golden Rule says – don’t you want people to give you the benefit of the doubt when you make mistakes.

How much more late did letting that person in make you anyway? Is this a mountain of a molehill? I don’t know if it constitutes your belief that you “got screwed.” In short (too late)-- my advice – take it easy.

23

well, I’m married, so to have sex with everyone I think of lustfully would be wrong, and unfair to Mr. Jar, don’t you think?

Getting high all the time is against the law, so for me it’s morally wrong. And I’ve seen tons of people spend a majority of their college career wasted and high and go on to be millionaires and very successful,while I sat around like a total nerd and said “no thank you, snorting cocaine is WRONG!” "no thank you, cheating on my husband is WRONG’

What benefits am I reaping?

(It seems silly using this traffic example since it’s not really a big deal, but it’s the easiest way to illustrate it)

Sure, it doesn’t take a lot of effort to give in, but you’re LETTING THEM GET AWAY WITH IT. You’re letting them be rude and incosiderate and selfish, and they’ll never learn NOT to be that way.

So there’s no such thing as altruism. We should only be nice if we expect nice in return? That doesn’t seem right either, and seems inherently selfish.

If I were truly kind and unselfish, I would watch everyone’s cats EVERY weekend, because it would bring joy to THEM…and supposedly I’m to gain some spiritual joy from that. Correct?

24

Meh…I’m from NY.
Actually, I do try to be helpful. I just don’t have tolerance for people who show no inclination to try to help themselves. If I have to explain the same thing six times or I suspect that the person wants me to do it for them, I’d rather not deal with them.

HumptysHamhole (re: tailgating) - My natural inclination is the old George Carlin routine - everyone on the road faster than me is an asshole, everyone slower is a moron. Over the years, I have learned that it is not important for me to show the next guy how much I kick ass behind the wheel and that I don’t need to hold the pole position on I-95. I would feel pretty stupid explaining to the officer why my car is on it’s roof because I wanted to catch that guy who cut me off.
This thread is misleading though. From the title I thought the OP wanted to discus leading a life of virtue vs one filles with vices (ie smoking, drinking, womanizing, drugs, gambling…you know…fun)

25

That IS what I want to discuss. Although I also consider vices to be selfishness and rudeness. I try hard, and have since I was a child, to live a life of virtue, to not break the law, to follow the ten commandments, to be honest, and forthright and truthful…and where has it gotten me?

Why not chuck it all and go out, score some heroin (which, being an opiate lover, I would dig the most), quit my job, screw the next three guys on the street and gain 200 pounds. It’s a lot more fun than restraint and kindness.

26

Do you want to be someone who does heroin, has no job, and screws random guys? If you don’t–which it really seems you don’t–why regret doing exactly what you want to do?

Good people are not always going to be rewarded with love and money and fame. Maybe not ever. Bad people sometime flourish. You can’t control that; if God’s doling out good to good people and bad to bad people justly I sure haven’t seen it. :wink: The only thing you can really control is who you are.

And NO ONE expects anyone to feel great spiritual joy from watching other people’s cats all the time.

27

I guess it’s because on the outside, at least, it looks like the people living viciously are a lot happier. They have no restrictions, no rules, no cares.

I just figured that after 31 years of following rules and being nice to others I might be a much happier, more successful person, not necessarily by fate or luck or a gift from God, but from hard work and persistance, and abstinence and faith and all that stuff.

It’s like Dr. Stupid Phil says: “How’s that working out for you?”

28

Well, for one thing, I respect you for it. Admittedly, I’m just a stranger on the internet, so that doesn’t mean much; but it should mean something what your husband thinks of you; what your friends and family whom you respect and whose high opinion you value think of you; what God thinks of you; and last but not least, what you think of yourself. At least, these should mean more to you than what the jerks and people who just want what they can get from you think of you.

[Shrug] So? Why does that matter to you?

You don’t have to “give in” or “take it” in the sense of letting people walk all over you. You can say something like, “Sorry, I’m not going to accept this rudeness” and walk away, or something like that. But getting upset whenever other people get away with things is, well, like sibling rivalry expanded to the whole human race. “Mommy, didn’t you see what he did? Aren’t you going to punish him?”

Not correct. The most unselfish thing is not necessarily what makes the other person happy or gives them temporary joy. In fact, there’s something selfish about doing things for people to get them to like you or to keep them from being mad at you. It’s ultimately more unselfish to do what contributes to the other person becoming a better and more spiritually mature human being.

Being a “nice person” or an “accommodating person” is not the same thing as being a “good person” or a “virtuous person” (although there’s certainly some overlap).
I believe that virtue is ultimately more rewarding than vice, but I’d be a fool to believe that its rewards are always as obvious or immediate. And some of the “rewards” of vice, like certain kinds of status symbols or being first in line, are only valuable because we value them, in a circular reasoning sort of way.

As I Christian, I believe in the things Jesus said, like “Love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great.” I don’t always find it easy to believe this or to live by it, and I can identify with those who don’t; but I do.

It’s a matter of what kind of person you want to be. I want to be a good person (whatever that means—but it doesn’t mean a doormat), so I try to do and not do what’s consistent with being a good person, or at least with moving toward that goal.

29

Because from what you’ve said on this thread I sincerly doubt you’d be happy if you did that. Pardon me if i’m reading your posts wrong but you seem like your a nice person, I don’t believe you’d be happy if you decided to vice it up. Is that unfair? Maybe, but life is rarely fair.

30

Do you honestly think that slamming on your brakes is going to teach them something? Even if they’re wrong, sometimes it’s best to just let it go.

A story from “How to Win Friends and Influence People”. The author, Dale Carnegie, in his younger days, was at a fancy dinner party. One of the guests mentioned in the midst of a story that a certain quote was from the bible. DC knew it was actually from Shakespeare and said so. They got into an argument and decided that another guest, an expert in theology, could settle it. The expert said “Mr Carnegie, you are wrong, it is from the bible. Please continue your story.”

Afterword, DC approached the expert and said “That quote was from Shakespeare and you know it” the expert said “Of course it was, but that was no reason to ruin the story, embarass the guest, and make everyone uncomfortable.”

The point of all this is, why make a big deal out of small stuff. You just make everyone around you unhappy. The guy wants to cut in at the last minute, make a little space. The sales associate wants to ignore you for a few minutes when helping someone else, wait patiently. A guy on the subway bumps you, assume it was an accident. You could turn all of these incidents into rousing arguments, asserting your dominance and all, but who’s life is improved as a result? Not yours, not theirs.

On quick preview, be nice to yourself. People who are vicious are not being nice to themselves, they’re just being mean to others. Being forced into caring for a cat isn’t being nice to yourself. Deciding you like the cat and want to do a favor for your friend, is being nice to yourself.

31

But does it bring them joy that you watch their cats? I don’t think so. I don’t think they appreciate it. Consider that.

It doesn’t matter if the jerks learn not to be jerky. If you are Christian, you must believe that they will learn in the afterlife if they don’t learn here. It is not your responsibility to make the world nothing but angels. But if it were, the best way would be to lead by example. You may not get through to the jerk you were trying to, but there are always observers who will likely be influenced by your actions. Your reward is your own peace of mind that you like who you are. That should be enough, and it is definitely something the jerks don’t have. They may be so self-involved that they don’t realize they don’t have it, but that doesn’t matter.

The point of this life is to LEARN and GROW as a person. I heard a methaphor at a funeral when I was a child that has stayed with me. The earth is God’s garden, each of us a flower. When we have reached our peak of growth and beauty, God transplants us from here to His Garden, so he can appreciate our beauty that much more. It really helps me deal with the loss of children and such. God wants the people who are beautiful within as his angels. Why cut your growth back now? Why reverse your growth just because the flowers around you are weeds? Shine that much more beautifully in comparison, I say.

As far as the jerks, you are told to turn the other cheek, not wash their feet. In other words, ignore them. Life is so much easier if you think to yourself that everyone around you is doing the best that they can GIVEN THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES. You say your friends never do the pot lucks if you can’t. Do they have the time, the skills, the right type of personality to enjoy such a task as you do? If not, it isn’t fair to expect them to do the same, because it doesn’t take an equal amount of effort for different people to do the exact same job. For those who prove they are not doing the best they can, if all they are doing is trying to piss you off, you give them what they want by letting them get to you. So the answer no matter what is to let it roll off your back. Life is so much happier if you stop keeping score and just appreciate what you have.

I don’t mean to sound high and mighty or anything. I struggle to live up to these same thoughts, but they make sense to me and help me when I feel like life is unfair. I struggled with infertility for three years and I was the most miserable person. But through that pain came great learning. That which does not kill us makes us stronger. I believe everything happens for a reason, even if it isn’t apparent to me at the moment.

32

So it’s as I suspected, there’s no comeuppance for being a dick. If I continue to let people in in traffic people will continue to believe they are unique snowflakes who can circumvent traffic because “some sucker will always yield and let me in”.

I COULD improve their life by getting them to consider not being a dick in the future, no matter how small the event. Seriously, if more people would wait for people to get OFF the subway before getting ON, wouldn’t everyone’s life be a little smoother? Sometimes little things add up to a day of rage…particularly in big cities like mine.

33

Don’t even get me started on this, since I find it to be the worst example of unfairness I’ve ever experienced. My infertility is probably what causes all these doubts and anger and shaken faith. There are so many jerkish, irresponsible, selfish horrible people getting pregnant, people mistreating their children, people giving up their children, people KILLING THEIR CHILDREN, and my husband and I,who are fairly stable :wink: and loving and kind and great…get nothing.

NOTHING. Yes I know life isn’t fair. But the unfairness done to me has to be balanced out somewhere. SOMEWHERE, someone is getting some great lucky breaks.

34

Sometimes little things don’t ever get a chance to add up to anything. Look, I drive down to Manhattan on a very regular basis, and I generally don’t run into any jerks while driving. Everyone is in a rush, people will cut you off, but that’s just how it is. They’re not being mean to ME, they’re just trying to get where they’re going. It’s not a personal insult that the cabbie is forcing his way into my lane, so why get worked up over it?

Maybe they won’t learn to be better, but it’s not my job to teach them, and trying to teach them will only make me and them angry.

35

Glad I could inspire an OP :).

I guess my experiences are different from yours – even on these boards. About a year ago, someone misunderstood me in a thread here in a way that I considered very stupid, and insulted me for holding a position that I didn’t hold. I snarkily responded to him, and it quickly turned into a full-fledged flamefest, with him opening two different threads about it (one to ask people to support his side of things, and another to call me all kinds of names).

At first I responded in kind, rising to the bait and being obnoxious right back to him. Did standing up to him help? Did he realize that his position really was very stupid?

Hell no. Of COURSE he didn’t. For every time I pounded my chest and hooted, he just pounded his chest harder and hooted louder.

Eventually, I did something completely cynical: I extended a truce to him, suggesting that it was all a misunderstanding.

The response was astonishing. He immediately deflated, immediately took the truce offer, and left me alone after that.

Was he still kind of an idiot? In my opinion, yes, and my truce offer to him was a little disingenuous, since I still thought he was an idiot for both his initial misunderstanding and his reaction to being corrected on it. But as long as I fought fire with fire, it all just got hotter and hotter. It was only when I made the first move toward peace that I saw he really wanted peace too.

That’s not an isolated experience for me on these boards or in real life. I have an unfortunate tendency to not walk away from a fight, even when I have very little respect for the folks I’m arguing with. Almost every time I don’t walk away, things get and stay nasty. But when I make offers of truces, when I give people a face-saving way to back down from a patently stupid or jerkish position, folks almost always accept it.

Obviously I’m no Ghandi, here: I can be as snarky as the next person. But in my experience, snarkiness rarely leads to a good outcome.

Extending the first olive branch doesn’t make you a chump; indeed, to the extent that anyone is a winner in the conversation, you are, since you’re the one in control of it now.

But of course, nobody is a winner in a conversation except somebody that is enjoying the conversation. By that yardstick, if you don’t enjoy being jerkish and the other person does, then they only win the conversation if you keep feeding their jerkish flames, and you lose; they lose and you win only if you give them nothing to keep the fight going.

That’s all different from feeding the neighbor’s cat, however. When someone asks a material favor, I’m all about trying to do it if it’s feasible and if the person doesn’t have a history of manipulating me or other people. If i figure out someone is abusing my friendship, why, it’s time to find a new friend. Fortunately, my group of friends is really good about supporting one another and doing things for one another.

Daniel

36

As far as the Christian ethics are concerned, I do not think this philosophy is espoused anywhere in the texts. You aren’t supposed to be nice to people because they will be nice to you in return. You are supposed to be kind because it is what your god asks of you. Your reward supposedly awaits you in heaven. There is no promise of earthly rewards. There is no promise that living a virtuous life will be easy, painless, happy, rewarding, or positive at all.

There is a great line in the movie ‘21 Grams’:

Your religion is not there to provide you with a happy life. If you get screwed (walked all over, out $20, waiting in the car lane) following your beliefs, well then, tough titties. The Bible never promises that it will be easy or fun to be virtuous in this world. To expect as much is not very Christian, IMO. You are supposed to take all of the pain and suffering that comes your way and deal with it all in a virtuous manner, trusting in “God’s Plan” when you get screwed. As far as your religion goes, the answer to your question seems pretty clearly laid out to me.

Personally, I’m an agnostic, so I am free from a belief in an afterlife, or a god of any kind. Without religion, it is up to me to develop my own moral code. To me, there is nothing that is objectively wrong. There is no obvious meaning or morality. There is only the meaning which we give things. In a cold, uncaring universe, or in a simulation, there is not much reason to do anything unless it pleases you to do so.

I happen to find comfort in being nice to people, I love humanity, and I want peace and happiness for all. Still, I don’t really obey laws - government’s or religion’s - unless it conflicts with my own personal moral code. Government’s have their own agendas which are seldom, these days, based in good intentions. Rather they are about maintining power structures and control. For me, that means vices galore: Booze, Gambling, Women, Some-Things-We-Won’t mention, and, if I feel it benefits me, I may lie or cheat. Fuck them, their laws, and their repressive moves. If I want to do something, I’m going to do it. And if it is illegal, or ‘immoral’, then I will do my best to not get caught.

I am not, however, without a moral code. My philosophy is that I will try to make every moment of my life feel as good as it possibly can. I’ve found that if I treat good people poorly, I spend time feeling bad. Cost benefit analysis then leads me to be cool to people, so that I will spend less time feeling bad. I do it because of how it makes me feel, not because of any self-proclaimed authorities telling me what is ‘right’. What makes me feel good is treating my friends well. Honesty, respect, and kindness amongst people I trust makes me feel really good. I’ve found that many, many, people are not worthy, unfortunately. So I treat jerks like jerks and good people like good people. I tell the truth to my friends, and lie to my enemies. I don’t follow anyone’s code but my own, and generally, I am one happy MoFo.

If you fear your god, then suck-it-up and take the pain in expectation of a reward. If you suspect that this is the only existence you will ever get (ie no afterlife), then I suggest you do everything you can to make it as pleasant as possible for yourself, whatever that may be. If it means vice, then go for it baby. If it means virtue, then knock yourself out.

I would also like to point out that looking out for #1 doesn’t have to mean screwing everybody else. Being kind, networking, doing favors, altruism, and similar things can make me feel good. So I help people (for example - I walked a blind man up 3 stories to catch a train the other day, missing my train as a result), I extend my social network, I try to ‘be the change I want to see in the world’. I do all of these things for myself (#1 as it were) because they make me feel good (in the long run if not immediately), and yet they still result in other people being helped or recieving kindness. Those things make me feel good and that is why I do them, not because of a belief in some ultimate judgement or objective morality.

To sum up: I’ll take an order of vice sprinkled with honest friendship, a side of random kindness, and a tall glass of screw anyone that get’s in my way (in any endeavor I may engage in - nice or naughty)!

DaLovin’ Dj

37

I think you’re missing a lot of the text if you believe God doesn’t want us to be happy and filled with joy. I don’t believe I was put on this earth just to suffer pain. But it hurts me to see that your life is free from worry, care or fear. Seems following rules and trying to be ‘good’ comes to no good end. “No good deed shall go unpunished”.

I don’t like to live life simply for a really really great life in heaven someday. I should be enjoying life NOW, shouldn’t I? I should be a lot happier. I should feel at peace, and fulfilled.

38

There is a huge comeuppance for being a dick. It’s other dicks. To go back to game theory, people who are assholes will quickly run into bigger assholes later on, and there’s nothing for it but the fireworks at that point.

Again, accept that there a large number of dicks in the general population, and try to minimise your interactions with them. We all need to deal with selfish people, but we don’t have to seek them out, and attempts to do so and show them the error of their ways almost always end badly.

39

You do have rewards and things to be joyful about here and now. The things you are upset you can’t have are things God doesn’t think you are supposed to have, anyway. You are not supposed to lust after material possessions or power or glory or fame. You have a loving husband. You have skills that make you employable. You have friends. You are supposed to take joy in things of the soul, not material things. You have peace of mind that you like who you are because you can respect yourself. The jerks of the world do not have these things. They do not have loving life partners - they may have them, but it isn’t a joyful relationship. They don’t have true friends. They don’t have things that should make their souls joyful, just their bodies.

Believe me, I understand your position about infertility as I was there once. The battle made me a better person - one who could learn to accept things out of my control, and in so many other ways, too. But I will leave that subject alone as you requested.

40

What it seems to me is that you are lacking one of the principals of religion - faith. If you don’t have faith in your religion, you are obviously going to question it and wonder why you are suffering so much with “no reward.”

Usually, for the faithful, doing good things it its own reward. I think you need to question your faith, and do what you think is right.